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  1. #1
    Jerome W. Young's Avatar
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    Default surge in main cabinet

    we talked about this at our last FABI meeting. This is not allowed i believe and for what reason? I think the manufacturer says not to?

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  2. #2
    James Duffin's Avatar
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    Default Re: surge in main cabinet

    It appears that it is designed to mount in a 1/2" KO so it would be outside the panel. One reason to have it outside is so you can see the LED's to determine the status of the unit.


  3. #3
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    Default Re: surge in main cabinet

    Jerome said: "I think the manufacturer says not to?"
    James said: "It appears that it is designed to mount in a 1/2" KO so it would be outside the panel."

    Both are correct answers.

    Jerry adds: "Also, the panel manufacturer tests and lists their panels with only conductors and breakers in them, and, if they make suitable surge protector breaker replacements (mount in the panel like breakers but are not breakers, are just surge protectors) and they test and listed them for use in *their* panel, that's also a go."

    But don't use anything else in the panel by another manufacturer and for which the panel was not tested and listed for use with. *Outside* the panel and wired in, that's okay ... as long as they are wired in properly too.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  4. #4
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    Default Re: surge in main cabinet

    The question cannot be simply answered "yes" or "no." If it's wrong, the hard part is saying what part is the concern.

    Consulting the UL White book, an awful lot hinges on exactly what is printed on that unit near the UL mark.
    There certainly is no automatic UL listing problem with using products of a different manufacture in a panel. As the White book explains - even using a panel for their example - UL has no opinion on such things, having no way to ascertain whether there is a listing problem, or not, without specifically examining a piece of equipment.

    It looks like the unit was made by Intermatic. A visit to their web site advises mounting such products as close as possible to the panel. This is, of course, hard to accomplish when the panel is set into the wall .... especially a run of even a few feet will make the suppressor useless.

    There certainly appears to be plenty of room within the panel - so we can't cite wiring space as the problem.

    In short, I think a lot more research is needed, before an opinion can be offered.


  5. #5
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    Default Re: surge in main cabinet

    From the intermatic web site (going by the picture - since there is no visible model number)

    4. Mount the SPD to the panel or an adjacent wall. If the mounting position prevents the direct
    connection of the offset nipple to the load center or equipment panel, a short piece of conduit
    must be used to comply with the National Electrical Code.
    5. For Flush Mount Panels, use the Intermatic Flush Mount Plate Model number IG1FMP-H.


    Jim Luttrall
    www.MrInspector.net
    Dallas, Texas

  6. #6
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    Default Re: surge in main cabinet

    Quote Originally Posted by John Steinke View Post
    It looks like the unit was made by Intermatic. A visit to their web site advises mounting such products as close as possible to the panel. This is, of course, hard to accomplish when the panel is set into the wall ....
    You posted some key words there John, then ignored them.

    "as close as possible to"

    Not "in" ... just "as close as possible to".

    Also, just because something is "hard to accomplish" that does not mean one can ignore basic rules, such as 110.3(B) - for BOTH the surge protector device AND the panel.

    John, you are waaayyy over thinking this if you go to the UL White Book - absolutely no need to go there, it does not pass muster anywhere near close enough to bother with that.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  7. #7
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    Default Re: surge in main cabinet

    Thanks, Jim ... I failed to spot the specific mention of an accessory piece for flush panels.


  8. #8
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    Default Re: surge in main cabinet

    I would agree with Jerry... installing or mounting foreign equipment within that panel simply violates the panel's basic Listing. That panel was never tested nor Listed for use with that equipment floating inside it. That panel should only have wires entering and terminating at the Listed breakers (or neutral / bonding terminals).

    Local electrical codes (up here anyway) do not allow splices or wires passing through the electrical service box nor foreign equipment to be add. Imagine if the thing had metal threads or a metal enclosure and it were to short up against one of the bus bars.

    This installation not only violates the panel's basic Listing, but also violates the Surge Protector's Listing as it was tested and intended to be externally mounted onto a knock-out, but it would also violate the local electrical code on the installation side. Take your pick - it's still wrong.


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    Default Re: surge in main cabinet

    I have read somewhere (sorry, no source in my notes) that the reason type 2 SPDs need to be solidly anchored is that they can otherwise thrash around inside a panel when they take the surge from a nearby lightning strike.

    Michael Thomas
    Paragon Property Services Inc., Chicago IL
    http://paragoninspects.com

  10. #10
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    Default Re: surge in main cabinet

    I've never heard that they "thrash around" in the panel, but under severe conditions they can swell up, and under extreme conditions they can explode (depending on the type of SPD it is, some may not swell, but may explode). Both of those are reason enough to keep them out of the panel.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  11. #11
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    Default Re: surge in main cabinet

    Hum.... it appears that at least in the case of SquardD in addition to their "breaker" style SPD you can install their "free standing" Type 2 SPD inside the load center with an appropriate mounting bracket:

    http://ecatalog.squared.com/pubs/Electrical%20Distribution/Load%20Centers/Accessories,%20QO%20(LK,%20PK,%20QO,%20QON)/40269-938-08.pdf
    http://ecatalog.squared.com/pubs/Ele...8291-0014D.pdf

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  12. #12
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    Default Re: surge in main cabinet

    (bold is mine)
    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Thomas View Post
    Hum.... it appears that at least in the case of SquardD in addition to their "breaker" style SPD you can install their "free standing" Type 2 SPD inside the load center with an appropriate mounting bracket:
    Michael,

    That fits in with this: (bold is mine)
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    But don't use anything else in the panel by another manufacturer and for which the panel was not tested and listed for use with. *Outside* the panel and wired in, that's okay ... as long as they are wired in properly too.
    You referenced a Square D product listed for use in a Square D panel, only in Square D QO or HOM panels.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  13. #13
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    Default Re: surge in main cabinet

    Found my first surge protector in a panel today.

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  14. #14
    Jerome W. Young's Avatar
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    Default Re: surge in main cabinet

    I have been telling them to remove it or install it properly. I doubt it works anyway.


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    Default Re: surge in main cabinet

    Rick,

    That's a neat job in there of wrapping all the white conductors together and all the grounds together, sure made it easier to see all the NM cables going up into that one non-strain relief fitting.

    More than 24"? Don't know, don't care - each cable is to be secured to the enclosure regardless.

    Almost hides the fact that the mains at multiple tapped.

    Yeah, I used to run into those types quite often, and, if you ever find one with the instructions still laying in the panel, they used to actually show it mounted two ways: one with the threaded hub through a knockout, an alternative using the double sided tape mounted to the inside of the enclosure just like that ... forget that the manufacturer of the panel says no and does not allow it, but we, the surge protector manufacturer, don't have a problem with it.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  16. #16
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    Default Re: surge in main cabinet

    The installation instructions currently on-line don't mention installation internal to the panel:

    http://www.sycomsurge.com/pdf/TC%20Wiring%20Diagram.pdf

    Michael Thomas
    Paragon Property Services Inc., Chicago IL
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  17. #17
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    Default Re: surge in main cabinet

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Thomas View Post
    The installation instructions currently on-line don't mention installation internal to the panel:
    Very good. Hopefully they quit supplying the double sided tape too.

    The manufacturer finally caught up with reality.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
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