Results 1 to 23 of 23
  1. #1
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Corinth, NY
    Posts
    90

    Default Two panels from the meter

    Not sure about this. First time I have ever seen it; 2 panels directly from the meter, one in the house and one in the garage. Can't upload photos for some reason. There are 2 cables that come from the meter, to 2 different main panels. On come from the bottom into the home, the other from the side, underground to the garage.

    Similar Threads:
    F.I.R.E. Services

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ormond Beach, Florida
    Posts
    26,844

    Default Re: Two panels from the meter

    First, drop the use of the term "main panel" and start using the term "service equipment" (which includes the "main service disconnect").

    From your description of location, the service equipment panel would be, should be, the panel outside at the meter.

    However, you also said that both panels were "directly from the meter", which is not allowed when one panel is outside and the other panel is inside.

    So, based on your description ... the only thing we can say is "one or both of the panels are not wired properly".

    Photos may help expand on that statement, or maybe confirm the statement, and maybe even add to the statement.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Corinth, NY
    Posts
    90

    Default Re: Two panels from the meter

    Ok, Jerry, one service panel is inside the house, and one is inside the garage the garage. They both come directly off the meter pan. There is a distribution panel on the second floor that is fed from the service panel in the home, which is not properly wired. I have never seen 2 service panels from one meter. I don't know why I can't download a frick frackin picture. I just sent the picture to your personal email.


  4. #4
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ormond Beach, Florida
    Posts
    26,844

    Default Re: Two panels from the meter

    Quote Originally Posted by Russell Melville View Post
    Ok, Jerry, one service panel is inside the house, and one is inside the garage the garage. They both come directly off the meter pan. There is a distribution panel on the second floor that is fed from the service panel in the home, which is not properly wired. I have never seen 2 service panels from one meter. I don't know why I can't download a frick frackin picture. I just sent the picture to your personal email.
    Russel,

    It's been 20 minutes and no photos have arrived yet, nonetheless ...

    From my first reply, and from your description above:
    one service panel is inside the house, and one is inside the garage the garage. They both come directly off the meter pan.
    That is not allowed, as previously stated.

    Which means that ONE of them (the best one would be the outdoor panel) needs to be made into THE service equipment panel, and that panel then feeds the other panel, OR ... or either panel can be relocated to where the other panel is so that BOTH service equipment panels are next to each other (grouped together) either inside or outside.

    Depends on if the capacity of BOTH of the panels is needed (move the panels to be grouped together) or if the capacity of ONE panel (the larger of the two panels if they are not the same rating) is suitable for the entire house (make the larger rated panel THE service equipment panel) then rewire as needed to make end result correct.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Maryland
    Posts
    1,923

    Default Re: Two panels from the meter

    The meter could feed into the service panel for the house and a disconnect for the garage to satisfy the.grouping requirement.

    All answers based on unamended National Electrical codes.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ormond Beach, Florida
    Posts
    26,844

    Default Re: Two panels from the meter

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Port View Post
    The meter could feed into the service panel for the house and a disconnect for the garage to satisfy the.grouping requirement.
    "satisfy the.grouping requirement"

    With one disconnect outside and one disconnect inside?

    No place that I've even been would consider an outside and inside disconnect as being "grouped".

    Granted, I haven't been that many places, but just yesterday I was talking with an electrical contractor from California and he brought that very issue of grouping up, and not there either.

    Disconnecting means. A device, or group of devices, or other means by which the conductors of a circuit can be disconnected from their source of supply.

    https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/group

    (sorry for the strange font sizes, it was a copy and past from the website)
    group

    noun, often attributive

    \ ˈgr?p


    \


    Definition of group

    (Entry 1 of 2)


    1: two or more figures forming a complete unit in a compositionwent there as a group

    2a: a number of individuals assembled together or having some unifying relationshipa study group
    b: an assemblage of objects regarded as a unitone of the food groups
    c(1): a military unit consisting of a headquarters and attached battalions
    (2): a unit of the U.S. Air Force higher than a squadron and lower than a wing


    3a: an assemblage of related organisms ?often used to avoid taxonomic connotations when the kind or degree of relationship is not clearly defined
    b(1): two or more atoms joined together or sometimes a single atom forming part of a moleculeespecially : FUNCTIONAL GROUPa methyl group
    (2): an assemblage of elements forming one of the vertical columns of the periodic table

    c: a bed or layer of rocks deposited during an era

    4: a mathematical set that is closed under a binary associative operation, contains an identity element, and has an inverse for every element



    This part best describes and applies to a group of disconnects:
    2a: a number of individuals assembled together or having some unifying relationshipa study group
    b: an assemblage of objects regarded as a unitone of the food groups


    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    NY
    Posts
    72

    Default Re: Two panels from the meter

    Quote Originally Posted by Russell Melville View Post
    Not sure about this. First time I have ever seen it; 2 panels directly from the meter, one in the house and one in the garage. Can't upload photos for some reason. There are 2 cables that come from the meter, to 2 different main panels. On come from the bottom into the home, the other from the side, underground to the garage.
    No argument to the call out here. Just wondering is there a basis in safety or functionality that has driven this requirement.


  8. #8
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Location
    Maryland, DC, and Northern Virginia, electrical only
    Posts
    129

    Default Re: Two panels from the meter

    It's the need to know you've killed all power. It's similar to the concept that's driven the move in the last two Code change attempts to have an outside service disconnect or group of disconnects, so firefighters eventually can know before entering the home, and without yanking the meter, that they have a way to ensure their electrical safety however and wherever they get in a building. It's also why you note the location of other sources of energy.


  9. #9
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    MONTREAL QUEBEC-CANADA
    Posts
    1,930

    Default Re: Two panels from the meter

    I was thinking generator equipment myself.

    Two panels from the meter is not an issue hypothetically. As long as the cables are connected properly, equipment is recent, no obsolete, and the meter can read how much power was used so POCO can bill the civic address occupants.

    Last edited by ROBERT YOUNG; 06-12-2019 at 04:16 AM.
    Robert Young's Montreal Home Inspection Services Inc.
    Call (514) 489-1887 or (514) 441-3732
    Our Motto; Putting information where you need it most, "In your hands.”

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    new hampshire
    Posts
    17

    Default Re: Two panels from the meter

    This was a common way to wire houses with electric heat back in the 60es here in New England , The panels would be side by side and one panel would have all the heat in it.


  11. #11
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Corinth, NY
    Posts
    90

    Angry Re: Two panels from the meter

    I sent the picture to Jerry via his email. maybe he will post it.

    I sent the report to my client last night calling it out as "not allowed". Hope that wasn't a mistake.

    Still can't figure out why I can't post pictures. It is not too big, file name is ok. Just wondering if I have too many pictures already loaded, but I can't figure out how to delete the old pics. Jeeze.


  12. #12
    Join Date
    Sep 2017
    Location
    WV
    Posts
    8

    Default Re: Two panels from the meter

    Quote Originally Posted by Russell Melville View Post
    Not sure about this. First time I have ever seen it; 2 panels directly from the meter, one in the house and one in the garage. Can't upload photos for some reason. There are 2 cables that come from the meter, to 2 different main panels. On come from the bottom into the home, the other from the side, underground to the garage.
    This is exactly what I have to get power to my garage , shop. I have a 400amp meter base that has a built in disconnect and two sets of lugs, one set for the 200amp panel in the house and one for the 200amp panel in the garage. I had to run a 500 mcm service entry cable to the meter base then a piece of 4/0 use to the house panel, to the garage is 3 inch conduit with 3 4/0 cables and one #4 safety ground that runs underground for 75 feet and terminates at the panel inside the garage. I also had to drive 2 8ft ground rods for earth grounds at the meter base and one 8ft ground rod at the garage these were all bonded to the panels and meter base. Power company did upgrade for nothing and it saved me about $4000 for what the power company was going to charge for running to the garage with a separate service.


  13. #13
    Join Date
    Sep 2017
    Location
    WV
    Posts
    8

    Default Re: Two panels from the meter

    Quote Originally Posted by Russell Melville View Post
    Not sure about this. First time I have ever seen it; 2 panels directly from the meter, one in the house and one in the garage. Can't upload photos for some reason. There are 2 cables that come from the meter, to 2 different main panels. On come from the bottom into the home, the other from the side, underground to the garage.
    This is exactly what I have to get power to my garage , shop. I have a 400amp meter base that has a built in disconnect and two sets of lugs, one set for the 200amp panel in the house and one for the 200amp panel in the garage. I had to run a 500 mcm service entry cable to the meter base then a piece of 4/0 use to the house panel, to the garage is 3 inch conduit with 3 4/0 cables and one #4 safety ground that runs underground for 75 feet and terminates at the panel inside the garage. I also had to drive 2 8ft ground rods for earth grounds at the meter base and one 8ft ground rod at the garage these were all bonded to the panels and meter base. Power company did upgrade for nothing and it saved me about $4000 for what the power company was going to charge for running to the garage with a separate service.


  14. #14
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ormond Beach, Florida
    Posts
    26,844

    Default Re: Two panels from the meter

    Quote Originally Posted by Russell Melville View Post
    I sent the picture to Jerry via his email. maybe he will post it.
    Attached.

    ***IMPORTANT*** You Need To Register To View Images ***IMPORTANT*** You Need To Register To View Images
    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  15. #15
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Washington State
    Posts
    367

    Default Re: Two panels from the meter

    IMG_0182.JPG

    Yesterday's Home on Puget Sound, Place was only 2500Sqft but had three additions - 2 Attics, Two Water Heaters, Two Panels, and 4 Crawlspaces - I definitely underbid it !

    Last edited by Jim Hintz; 06-09-2019 at 10:05 AM.

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    MONTREAL QUEBEC-CANADA
    Posts
    1,930

    Default Re: Two panels from the meter

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Hintz View Post
    IMG_0182.JPG

    Yesterday's Home on Puget Sound, Place was only 2500Sqft but had three additions - 2 Attics, Two Water Heaters, Two Panels, and 4 Crawlspaces - I definitely underbid it !
    Reasonable to preform a SOP inspection.

    Review the property prior disclosing fee.
    Man, Sir, could you please provide the MLS so I can provide a fee.

    Pretty sure we have all been there.

    Robert Young's Montreal Home Inspection Services Inc.
    Call (514) 489-1887 or (514) 441-3732
    Our Motto; Putting information where you need it most, "In your hands.”

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ormond Beach, Florida
    Posts
    26,844

    Default Re: Two panels from the meter

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Hintz View Post
    Yesterday's Home on Puget Sound, Place was only 2500Sqft but had three additions - 2 Attics,
    Part of the 2500 sq ft or in addition to the 2500 sq ft? If in addition too, then the price goes up as the client mis-represented what you were going to inspect. If part of the 2500 sq ft ... how small was the house originally - but it doesn't matter as the correct sq ft was given.

    Two Water Heaters, Two Panels, and 4 Crawlspaces - I definitely underbid it !
    Not uncommon from my experience, not even the 4 crawlspaces (for houses which had crawlspaces, fortunately, most of my inspections were were slab on grade); multiple attics (access multiple areas) was common.

    However, the reason I was replying is that in the photo, there are two equal sized raceways going up into the meter can - not two sets of service entrance conductors (conductors in parallel) are there, and not from two sources are they (one from an optional standby generator)?

    Curious as to why two conduits for service entrance conductors.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    conyers, ga
    Posts
    79

    Default Re: Two panels from the meter

    Well in Georgia, we have houses that are wired, and in My county was allowed to have two panels off the one meter, mostly in homes that had 400 amp service, two 200 amp panels side by side with their own disconnect bot wired back to the meter


  19. #19
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Washington State
    Posts
    367

    Default Re: Two panels from the meter

    Hi Jerry,
    No generator setup. Place used to be a "Cabin" decades ago and was added onto, remodeled, etc...The reason there were 4 crawlspaces was you have to go through a hole blasted through a foundation wall to get under an added portion of the structure. Each panel controlled circuits for particular rooms in the residence. Each panel was bonded also.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Part of the 2500 sq ft or in addition to the 2500 sq ft? If in addition too, then the price goes up as the client mis-represented what you were going to inspect. If part of the 2500 sq ft ... how small was the house originally - but it doesn't matter as the correct sq ft was given.



    Not uncommon from my experience, not even the 4 crawlspaces (for houses which had crawlspaces, fortunately, most of my inspections were were slab on grade); multiple attics (access multiple areas) was common.

    However, the reason I was replying is that in the photo, there are two equal sized raceways going up into the meter can - not two sets of service entrance conductors (conductors in parallel) are there, and not from two sources are they (one from an optional standby generator)?

    Curious as to why two conduits for service entrance conductors.
    - - - Updated - - -

    My pricing is based on square footage and year built. I also have access to the MLS. 99.999% of the time there is nothing mentioned about additions / multiple attics, crawlspaces, service panel, etc., in the Client or Agent remarks concerning the Listing.


    Quote Originally Posted by ROBERT YOUNG View Post
    Reasonable to preform a SOP inspection.

    Review the property prior disclosing fee.
    Man, Sir, could you please provide the MLS so I can provide a fee.

    Pretty sure we have all been there.



  20. #20
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    NY
    Posts
    72

    Default Re: Two panels from the meter

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Bushong View Post
    This is exactly what I have to get power to my garage , shop. I have a 400amp meter base that has a built in disconnect and two sets of lugs, one set for the 200amp panel in the house and one for the 200amp panel in the garage. I had to run a 500 mcm service entry cable to the meter base then a piece of 4/0 use to the house panel, to the garage is 3 inch conduit with 3 4/0 cables and one #4 safety ground that runs underground for 75 feet and terminates at the panel inside the garage. I also had to drive 2 8ft ground rods for earth grounds at the meter base and one 8ft ground rod at the garage these were all bonded to the panels and meter base. Power company did upgrade for nothing and it saved me about $4000 for what the power company was going to charge for running to the garage with a separate service.
    That?s what I was thinking -if done properly this shouldn?t be an issue.

    - -


  21. #21
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    MONTREAL QUEBEC-CANADA
    Posts
    1,930

    Default Re: Two panels from the meter

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    "satisfy the.grouping requirement"

    With one disconnect outside and one disconnect inside?

    No place that I've even been would consider an outside and inside disconnect as being "grouped".

    Granted, I haven't been that many places, but just yesterday I was talking with an electrical contractor from California and he brought that very issue of grouping up, and not there either.

    Disconnecting means. A device, or group of devices, or other means by which the conductors of a circuit can be disconnected from their source of supply.

    https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/group

    (sorry for the strange font sizes, it was a copy and past from the website)
    group

    noun, often attributive

    \ ˈgr?p


    \


    Definition of group

    (Entry 1 of 2)


    1: two or more figures forming a complete unit in a compositionwent there as a group

    2a: a number of individuals assembled together or having some unifying relationshipa study group
    b: an assemblage of objects regarded as a unitone of the food groups
    c(1): a military unit consisting of a headquarters and attached battalions
    (2): a unit of the U.S. Air Force higher than a squadron and lower than a wing


    3a: an assemblage of related organisms ?often used to avoid taxonomic connotations when the kind or degree of relationship is not clearly defined
    b(1): two or more atoms joined together or sometimes a single atom forming part of a moleculeespecially : FUNCTIONAL GROUPa methyl group
    (2): an assemblage of elements forming one of the vertical columns of the periodic table

    c: a bed or layer of rocks deposited during an era

    4: a mathematical set that is closed under a binary associative operation, contains an identity element, and has an inverse for every element



    This part best describes and applies to a group of disconnects:
    2a: a number of individuals assembled together or having some unifying relationshipa study group
    b: an assemblage of objects regarded as a unitone of the food groups
    Morning, Jerry. Hope to find you well and in good spirits and heath this lovely day.

    Not saying anything negative about the information you posted.
    but I find Swiping and Pasting material from other internet site to InspectionNews MB threads leaves a little bit to be desired. I typically/usually use Word to translate articles I find/found on the internet to InspectionNews MB.
    Hope that helps

    Robert Young's Montreal Home Inspection Services Inc.
    Call (514) 489-1887 or (514) 441-3732
    Our Motto; Putting information where you need it most, "In your hands.”

  22. #22
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ormond Beach, Florida
    Posts
    26,844

    Default Re: Two panels from the meter

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil brody View Post
    That?s what I was thinking -if done properly this shouldn?t be an issue.
    HOWEVER ...

    There are two photos below in recent posts which show: one is definitely not done properly (one disconnect outside and one disconnect inside); the other has an unanswered question (why two conduits going to the meter).

    Why we say "if done properly this" ... we need to be clear what "this" is, so we don't give a false impression of what is being referred to.

    And, yes, I saw the quote being replied to, but are you saying that it has to be done "that way" to be right?

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  23. #23
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ormond Beach, Florida
    Posts
    26,844

    Default Re: Two panels from the meter

    Quote Originally Posted by ROBERT YOUNG View Post
    ... but I find Swiping and Pasting material from other internet site to InspectionNews MB threads leaves a little bit to be desired.
    Robert,

    Curious why you think copy and paste leaves a bit to be desired (what you called "Swiping and Pasting").

    I provided the source, the link, and highlighted the applicable part.

    To me, that's better than swiping someone else's work, editing it, and posting "your version" of it to explain something or define something.

    Posting information by others and acknowledging the source is something we do all the time.

    Have you ever referenced a code, standard, or some other source, the posted that information here? (No need to answer, we've all seen you do it. Are you now saying it's not good to acknowledge the source of the information, and that we should edit it to look like our information?)

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •