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  1. #1
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    Default Prove mechanical fastener required for multiple ground conductors#ROMEX#RESIDENTIAL

    Hello everybody. There has been a dilemma lately amongst my coworkers.
    Is a mechanical Fastener required to connect multiple ground wire using romex in residential electrical system. And, if so, please provide specific NEC reference
    Thanks! I know you guys "got this"

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    Default Re: Prove mechanical fastener required for multiple ground conductors#ROMEX#RESIDENTI

    Quote Originally Posted by mary theresa craig View Post
    Is a mechanical Fastener required to connect multiple ground wire using romex in residential electrical system.
    Versus what other option?

    Under what condition?

    Give a scenario you are referring to.

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    Default Re: Prove mechanical fastener required for multiple ground conductors#ROMEX#RESIDENTI

    Are you asking is just twisting the grounds together without a wirenut or crimp sleeve is acceptable?

    All answers based on unamended National Electrical codes.

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    Default Re: Prove mechanical fastener required for multiple ground conductors#ROMEX#RESIDENTI

    A ground wire is usually terminated with a mechanical fastener on both ends. What that fastener winds up being varies.

    Typically, where there is a J-box or an outlet (this is going to be a switch, receptacle, light fixture, etc.) all the ground wires in the box will be connected together. This will include a pigtail for a light fixture or device, multiple pigtails for multiple devices. The connection can be made with a wire nut, push-in type connector, or a crimp type connection.

    It is also possible to make the connections by twisting all the wires together to tight enough they won't come apart, then solder (or braze, weld) them. In this instance, no mechanical fastener is used and the solder or other process replaces it.

    In a panel multiple ground wires may be connected together with a buss bar or rated lug, and these are also mechanical fasteners.

    What is not acceptable is just twisting the wires without using a wire nut, crimp, or soldering

    See National Electrical Code 110.14-B for splicing rules.
    REG. Copyright NEC

    (B) Splices. Conductors shall be spliced or joined with splicing devices identified for the use or by brazing, welding, or soldering with a fusible metal or alloy. Soldered splices shall first be spliced or joined so as to be mechanically and electrically secure without solder and then be soldered. All splices and joints and the free ends of conductors shall be covered with an insulation equivalent to that of the conductors or with an identified insulating device.


    So, your answer is NO, because solder is not a mechanical fastener. Be careful here. The twisted wires are a mechanical connection but that isn't a mechanical fastener.

    Confused yet?

    Last edited by Bill Kriegh; 02-06-2020 at 08:57 PM.
    Occam's eraser: The philosophical principle that even the simplest solution is bound to have something wrong with it.

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    Default Re: Prove mechanical fastener required for multiple ground conductors#ROMEX#RESIDENTI

    15 amp lighting circuit. Double switches. 4 wires in the box.


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    Default Re: Prove mechanical fastener required for multiple ground conductors#ROMEX#RESIDENTI

    Quote Originally Posted by mary theresa craig View Post
    15 amp lighting circuit. Double switches. 4 wires in the box.
    Metal box or plastic box? (This only effects whether the box itself needs to be grounded, and if metal, then a mechanical connector would be needed.)

    Otherwise, Bill provided your answer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Kriegh View Post
    A ground wire is usually terminated with a mechanical fastener on both ends. What that fastener winds up being varies.
    .
    .
    .
    What is not acceptable is just twisting the wires without using a wire nut, crimp, or soldering

    See National Electrical Code 110.14-B for splicing rules.
    REG. Copyright NEC

    (B) Splices. Conductors shall be spliced or joined with splicing devices identified for the use or by brazing, welding, or soldering with a fusible metal or alloy. Soldered splices shall first be spliced or joined so as to be mechanically and electrically secure without solder and then be soldered. All splices and joints and the free ends of conductors shall be covered with an insulation equivalent to that of the conductors or with an identified insulating device.


    So, your answer is NO, because solder is not a mechanical fastener. Be careful here. The twisted wires are a mechanical connection but that isn't a mechanical fastener.
    However, expanding on Bill's answer of "No." is ... when is the last time anyone has seen wires soldered together (especially in a house)? Or maybe I should ask 'has anyone ever seen sires soldered together?

    I have seen seen wires soldered together in houses and other buildings, and I am sure Bill and other 'old guy' electricians have, but even 'young electricians' ('guys' and 'gals') have likely not seen soldered wires ... unless they do service work on older buildings.

    So ... unless soldered ... the answer is 'Yes.'

    (But that 'Yes.' requires the clarification of 'unless soldered' as the mechanical connection when soldered is not the solder, it is the twisted together wires, and the electrical connection is not the solder either, it is the twisted together wires ... so why spend the time soldering the wires ... right? Which is likely why it is not done anymore ... at least not that I know of - anyone know of any electricians who still solder wires?)

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    Default Re: Prove mechanical fastener required for multiple ground conductors#ROMEX#RESIDENTI

    Well, the way the OP worded things there aren't any qualifications.You can't prove a mechanical fastener is required when connecting multiple ground wires together - because they aren't. No need to complicate the answer.

    If people are fussing over this stuff a code book needs to be involved.

    Occam's eraser: The philosophical principle that even the simplest solution is bound to have something wrong with it.

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    Talking Re: Prove mechanical fastener required for multiple ground conductors#ROMEX#RESIDENTI

    Dear Mr. Jerry Correct Nominclature Peck,
    I believe the correct word is "conductors", not
    "wires". I am shocked that you used the word, "wires".
    I learned something from both you because of your replies in this thread. So, thanks!


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    Default Re: Prove mechanical fastener required for multiple ground conductors#ROMEX#RESIDENTI

    Quote Originally Posted by Elizabeth Chambers View Post
    Dear Mr. Jerry Correct Nominclature Peck,
    I believe the correct word is "conductors", not
    "wires". I am shocked that you used the word, "wires".
    I learned something from both you because of your replies in this thread. So, thanks!
    Good point Liz woops Elizabeth !


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    Default Re: Prove mechanical fastener required for multiple ground conductors#ROMEX#RESIDENTI

    Quote Originally Posted by Elizabeth Chambers View Post
    Dear Mr. Jerry Correct Nominclature Peck,
    I believe the correct word is "conductors", not
    "wires". I am shocked that you used the word, "wires".
    I learned something from both you because of your replies in this thread. So, thanks!
    Elizabeth,

    Sooo ... one does not "wire a house", or install "wiring"?

    I understand and accept your correction.

    I have, and likely will, use "wires" as a general term, and will still (at least still make an effort to) use and differentiate types of wires; i.e., "service entrance conductors"; "feeder conductors" so as get one to think in terms of "service" and "not service" as many questions seem to arise out of the use of slang terms for those items, mostly because of a lack of understanding that there are specific rules and requirements which apply to "service" items which are not applicable to "not service" items.



    Jerry Peck
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    Default Re: Prove mechanical fastener required for multiple ground conductors#ROMEX#RESIDENTI

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Elizabeth,

    Sooo ... one does not "wire a house", or install "wiring"?

    Hmmm... Can an electrician "conduct" a house? Is installation called "conductoring"?

    Oops, look like the answer is yes. Maybe not for houses though.

    https://nmgroup.com/en-us/resources/...toring-studies

    Department of Redundancy Department
    http://www.FullCircleInspect.com/

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    Default Re: Prove mechanical fastener required for multiple ground conductors#ROMEX#RESIDENTI

    To be fair to Jerry, Elizabeth.
    The basic key difference between wires and cables is that a wire is a single conductor whereas a cable is a group of conductors. Although, these conductors are made of a common material- copper or aluminium. Usually, the wires are bare and are twisted. But, some of the wires are coated with thin PVC layer.

    A conductor, In physics and electrical engineering, is an object or type of material that allows the flow of charge (electrical current) in one or more directions. Many conductors require bonding.

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    Default Re: Prove mechanical fastener required for multiple ground conductors#ROMEX#RESIDENTI

    Quote Originally Posted by ROBERT YOUNG View Post
    Many conductors require bonding.
    Many conductors are used for that bonding of other conductors.

    Anything which is not an insulator is a conductor, and the difference between the two may be minimal for some materials.

    But I think your direction went in a different direction than what Elizabeth was referring to.

    Jerry Peck
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    Default Re: Prove mechanical fastener required for multiple ground conductors#ROMEX#RESIDENTI

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Many conductors are used for that bonding of other conductors.

    Anything which is not an insulator is a conductor, and the difference between the two may be minimal for some materials.

    But I think your direction went in a different direction than what Elizabeth was referring to.
    My pleasure.

    I know.

    Wires, in this case, or in this case wires, either direction, require mechanical fasteners for multiple ground conductors, would be a appropriate.
    Just my 2 cents.

    Robert Young's Montreal Home Inspection Services Inc.
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    Default Re: Prove mechanical fastener required for multiple ground conductors#ROMEX#RESIDENTI

    Quote Originally Posted by ROBERT YOUNG View Post
    Wires, in this case, or in this case wires, either direction, require mechanical fasteners for multiple ground conductors, would be a appropriate.
    Just my 2 cents.
    Actually, the entire point of the discussion was that ... the code ... does "not" ... "require" mechanical fasteners for junctions in conductors ...

    ... well ...

    ... not if the conductors are twisted around each other so as to make an electrical connection AND make a mechanical connection AND ... are soldered ...

    Which gets back to the question of 'when is the last time', or even the 'first time' you have seen connections which are soldered? Nonetheless, though, "the code" "does not" "require" mechanical connectors" for connections in conductors.

    "Up" is "up" even when something is turned "upside down" (or even if it is turned "downside up") ... the qualifier of "if soldered" is just the decorative writing on the frosting of the cake which says "Happy Birthday" ... it is still a birthday cake without that writing on it ... it is still a conductor connection without solder ... and a conductor connection does not "require" a mechanical fastener ... provided ...

    Jerry Peck
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    Default Re: Prove mechanical fastener required for multiple ground conductors#ROMEX#RESIDENTI

    250.8 Connection of Grounding and Bonding Equipment.


    (A) Permitted Methods. Equipment grounding conductors, grounding electrode conductors, and bonding jumpers shall be connected by one or more of the following means:







    (B) Methods Not Permitted.
    Connection devices or fittings that depend solely on solder shall not be used.


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    Default Re: Prove mechanical fastener required for multiple ground conductors#ROMEX#RESIDENTI

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bertrams View Post
    250.8 Connection of Grounding and Bonding Equipment.

    (A) Permitted Methods.
    Equipment grounding conductors, grounding electrode conductors, and bonding jumpers shall be connected by one or more of the following means:

    (B) Methods Not Permitted.
    Connection devices or fittings that depend solely on solder shall not be used.
    This is the key to that:
    "Connection devices or fittings that depend solely on solder".

    Remember, one of the allowed methods is 'twisted creating a mechanical and electrical connection', and THEN soldered ... not solder by itself.

    Which is why I pointed out that soldering was not needed. The connection already IS a mechanical connection AND already IS an electrical connection ... so why solder? The answer is because: a) that is what was specified; b) that is what I was told to do; c) that is how I was trained to do it; d) I wanted to solder it.

    There is nothing wrong with a), b), c), or d), just an option allowed by code.

    Jerry Peck
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    Default Re: Prove mechanical fastener required for multiple ground conductors#ROMEX#RESIDENTI

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    This is the key to that:
    "Connection devices or fittings that depend solely on solder".

    Remember, one of the allowed methods is 'twisted creating a mechanical and electrical connection', and THEN soldered ... not solder by itself.

    Which is why I pointed out that soldering was not needed. The connection already IS a mechanical connection AND already IS an electrical connection ... so why solder? The answer is because: a) that is what was specified; b) that is what I was told to do; c) that is how I was trained to do it; d) I wanted to solder it.

    There is nothing wrong with a), b), c), or d), just an option allowed by code.
    (A) Permitted Methods. Equipment grounding conductors, grounding electrode conductors, and bonding jumpers shall be connected by one or more of the following means:


    1. (1) Listed pressure connectors
    2. (2) Terminal bars
    3. (3) Pressure connectors listed as grounding and bonding
      equipment
    4. (4) Exothermic welding process
    5. (5) Machine screw-type fasteners that engage not less than two
      threads or are secured with a nut
    6. (6) Thread-forming machine screws that engage not less than
      two threads in the enclosure
    7. (7) Connections that are part of a listed assembly
    8. (8) Other listed means






    I'm not seeing "twisted" as a permitted method.


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    Default Re: Prove mechanical fastener required for multiple ground conductors#ROMEX#RESIDENTI

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bertrams View Post
    250.8 Connection of Grounding and Bonding Equipment.
    Quote Originally Posted by David Bertrams View Post
    (A) Permitted Methods. Equipment grounding conductors, grounding electrode conductors, and bonding jumpers shall be connected by one or more of the following means:


    1. (1) Listed pressure connectors
    2. (2) Terminal bars
    3. (3) Pressure connectors listed as grounding and bonding
      equipment
    4. (4) Exothermic welding process
    5. (5) Machine screw-type fasteners that engage not less than two
      threads or are secured with a nut
    6. (6) Thread-forming machine screws that engage not less than
      two threads in the enclosure
    7. (7) Connections that are part of a listed assembly
    8. (8) Other listed means


    I'm not seeing "twisted" as a permitted method.
    One must first read the heading of the section before applying the section, and being as you posted the section, I presumed that you read the heading of the section,

    I've added bold to the applicable words:
    Quote Originally Posted by David Bertrams View Post
    250.8 Connection of Grounding and Bonding Equipment.
    That section is addressing the "connection of" ... "Grounding and Bonding Equipment".

    When the "equipment grounding conductors, grounding electrode conductors, and bonding jumpers" are connected to the equipment being grounded, they "shall be connected" (the the equipment) "by one or more of the following means".

    I look forward to some of the electrical contractors correcting that, in which case, the previous posts by others about such splice connections would also be incorrect.

    Let's get a definitive answer for this.

    And, if we go in that direction with the above, then this next section really creates havoc:
    - 250.10 Protection of Ground Clamps and Fittings. Ground clamps or other fittings exposed to physical damage shall be enclosed in metal, wood, or equivalent protecting covering.

    EMT, set screw adapters: The set screw in the adapters (the set screws are exposed), in locations which are considered as being exposed to physical damage, are therefore in need of being enclosed and protected.

    I'm not saying that is the intent of the wording, but if we are going to read the wording and ignore the intent ... then let's maintain that direction throughout the code.

    Jerry Peck
    Construction Litigation Consultant ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
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    Default Re: Prove mechanical fastener required for multiple ground conductors#ROMEX#RESIDENTI

    I was going to post the same, EQUIPMENT.

    With circuits, mechanical fasteners/clamps are required in junction boxes, to gang clamp bundled ground wires. One ground conductor/wire being longer to bond/terminate at/to the junction box when required.
    Sorry for my narrative. A tad bit off.

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