Results 1 to 14 of 14
  1. #1
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    WESTMINSTER CO
    Posts
    1,135

    Default new gfci code for ac units

    https://www.electricallicenserenewal...ectionID=812.0

    Has anyone heard about this--there is an apartment complex near me that the city is enforcing this on--it's a 20 year old complex

    cvf

    Similar Threads:
    Inspection Referral

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    New Mexico
    Posts
    1,327

    Default Re: new gfci code for ac units

    That is the first I have heard of it, but I'm not surprised. NM doesn't usually adopt for a few years, so it won't start showing up here for a while. Like I said a few months ago, by the time our grand kids are buying houses the entire building will probably be under GFCI protection one way or another.

    Jim Robinson
    New Mexico, USA

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Colorado Front Range
    Posts
    672

    Default Re: new gfci code for ac units

    Colorado does allow local AHDs to amend the NEC, but only with additions that exceed what is in the NEC. To be enforceable these have to be published in the local building code as an electrical code amendment.

    The NEC typically doesn't require existing installations to be upgraded. There are some exceptions, like receptacles for AFCI and GFCI protection requiring this protection be added if not present when a receptacle is replaced. Also a requirement for tamper resistant types.

    As I read the NEC and Westminster amendment to the NEC i see no provision for requiring any EXISTING outlets for A/C be upgraded for a unit replacement outside as the required disconnect is the point of supply (outlet) and wouldn't normally be changed out. If the disconnect IS changed out then you get into an area where games can be played. If new work, GFCIs are required on all outside outlets rated 50 AMPs or less, with some exceptions

    Without specifics, that about all I can do to enlighten you about requiring a GFCI on A/C with existing wiring and disconnect.

    That all said, I install them all the time on outside/appliance outlets. A unit can have partial failure and be leaking current through the grounding conductor at a level that isn't enough to trip the breaker. This, with a poor connection to ground can easily cause someone to get nailed if they brush against the unit, especially in damp conditions.

    The requirement is a darn fine idea though.

    Occam's eraser: The philosophical principle that even the simplest solution is bound to have something wrong with it.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Santa Rosa, CA
    Posts
    3,002

    Default Re: new gfci code for ac units

    That is very interesting Charlie. The 2017 NEC wording is:

    210.8 Ground-Fault Circuit-Interrupter Protection for Personnel. Ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection for personnel shall be provided as required in 210.8(A) through (E). The ground-fault circuit interrupter shall be installed in a readily accessible location.
    (A) Dwelling Units. All 125-volt, single-phase, 15- and 20-ampere receptacles installed in the locations specified in 210.8(A)(1) through (10) shall have ground-fault circuit interrupter protection for personnel.

    The 2020 NEC wording added "through 250-volt":

    210.8 Ground-Fault Circuit-Interrupter Protection for Personnel. Ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection for personnel shall be provided as required in 210.8(A) through (E). The ground-fault circuit interrupter shall be installed in a readily accessible location.
    (A) Dwelling Units. All 125-volt through 250-volt, single-phase, 15- and 20-ampere receptacles installed in the locations specified in 210.8(A)(1) through (11) and supplied by single-phase branch circuits rated 150 volts or less to ground shall have ground-fault circuit interrupter protection for personnel.


    The one thing that I am uncertain about is the "150 volts or less to ground" part. Why would that need to be specifically defined?

    In my area, it looks like it not only includes A/C units, but well pumps, pressure pumps, ejector pumps, and any other 240 volt item in locations described in 210.8(A)(1) through (A)(11). Also included would be tools/appliances you might find in a residential garage like a kiln, welder, table saw, etc.

    Not a bad idea though. I have wondered why these weren't included long ago.

    As with "The Land of Enchantment", CA probably won't be enforcing the 2020 NEC (modified somewhat to become the 2022 CEC) until the beginning of 2023.

    So, to answer your question: No, I haven't seen this yet, and probably won't for a couple of years.

    Last edited by Gunnar Alquist; 02-26-2021 at 10:46 AM.
    Department of Redundancy Department
    http://www.FullCircleInspect.com/

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Orlando, FL
    Posts
    1,519

    Default Re: new gfci code for ac units

    Quote Originally Posted by CHARLIE VAN FLEET View Post
    --there is an apartment complex near me that the city is enforcing this on--it's a 20 year old complex
    Were they (complex) doing permitted work somewhere on site? Seems like they (AHJ) can't enforce anything to this 20 year old dwelling unless they are somehow involved in the nuts & bolts of some building department issue.

    You likely live in a area with tens of thousands of non-compliant buildings.
    I'd let a local sparky deal with the subtleties of the interpretations.


  6. #6
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ormond Beach, Florida
    Posts
    27,559

    Default Re: new gfci code for ac units

    Quote Originally Posted by Gunnar Alquist View Post
    The 2020 NEC wording added "through 250-volt":
    .
    .
    The one thing that I am uncertain about is the "150 volts or less to ground" part. Why would that need to be specifically defined?

    In my area, it looks like it not only includes A/C units, but well pumps, pressure pumps, ejector pumps, and any other 240 volt item in locations described in 210.8(A)(1) through (A)(11). Also included would be tools/appliances you might find in a residential garage like a kiln, welder, table saw, etc.
    That is defined because a "240 volt" circuit is really just two "120 volt" circuits measured from the grounded point at its supply at the panel. Like on a vehicle chassis putting two 12 volt batteries together as "-" "+" | "-" "+" with the "|" indicating that point is tied to steel chassis. The result is "24 volts" from "-" on one battery to "+" on the other battery, but is still only "12 volts" when measured from the chassis to those two outer battery post.

    A 240 circuit which is grounded at the center is only 120 volts "to ground".

    Thus, if one was touching "ground", the most one would get shocked would be on either side of the "120 volt" side of the 240 volt circuit.

    Which is different than contacting both sides of the 240 volt circuit and and really trying to light oneself up using 240 volts.

    New, or now "current", editions of codes only apply to new work ... unless the code is written such that the code is applied retroactively during replacements (such as for GFCI and AFCI receptacle outlet "replacements" with the replaced receptacle outlets being GFCI or AFCI protected) or during misuse (such as Edison base fuses which have been over-fused, in which case the Safe-T-Fuse adapters are required to be installed so as to further impede the efforts of homeowners and tenants to defeat the fuse capacity of even the Safe-T-Fuse adapters, such as wrapping the adapter in aluminum foil - "you can't fix stupid").

    Then ... there are AHJ which claim that they are "the sheriff of this here town" and that what they say goes ... yeah ... alright.

    Jerry Peck
    Construction Litigation Consultant ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Colorado Front Range
    Posts
    672

    Default Re: new gfci code for ac units

    Quote Originally Posted by Dom D'Agostino View Post
    Were they (complex) doing permitted work somewhere on site? Seems like they (AHJ) can't enforce anything to this 20 year old dwelling unless they are somehow involved in the nuts & bolts of some building department issue.

    You likely live in a area with tens of thousands of non-compliant buildings.
    I'd let a local sparky deal with the subtleties of the interpretations.

    One did.

    Occam's eraser: The philosophical principle that even the simplest solution is bound to have something wrong with it.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    WESTMINSTER CO
    Posts
    1,135

    Default Re: new gfci code for ac units

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Kriegh View Post
    One did.
    Bill ????


  9. #9
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Colorado Front Range
    Posts
    672

    Default Re: new gfci code for ac units

    Quote Originally Posted by CHARLIE VAN FLEET View Post
    Bill ????
    That'd be the guy.

    Occam's eraser: The philosophical principle that even the simplest solution is bound to have something wrong with it.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Chico,Ca
    Posts
    447

    Default Re: new gfci code for ac units

    The GFCI requirement is part of the 2020 NEC, last I looked, 9 States have adopted it, electric ranges & clothes dryers are also part of that requirement. If appliance installers are keeping the bond between the neutral & frame of dryers & ranges, they are going to become very hated individuals, as adoption of the 2020 happens.


  11. #11
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Location
    Maryland, DC, and Northern Virginia, electrical only
    Posts
    189

    Default Re: new gfci code for ac units

    First, a definition. Second, some history.

    Bill, a disconnect is not an outlet anywhere I've seen "outlet" defined by authorities. We don't utilize electricity at a switch or disconnect, or at something plugged in to a switch or disconnect, unless that also has a lampholder, motor, receptacle, or equivalent device as part of it. It an outlet were something that can disconnect power, the service disconnect would be an outlet, and so would the branch circuit breaker. So this really is written to apply to outdoor residential LOADS.

    Now the background. Any number of laypersons have gotten shocked by 208 or 240V sources at residences without any intention of messing with electricity. However, this came into the code because one hardworking and caring iEEE rep--out of Canada--on the CMP heard a presentation about a kid who died on his way home from school. The boy and his buddy were cutting through backyards when his buddy noticed his friend hadn't kept up. What happened is the kids touched an AC compressor housing as he went over the fence. It had a short to the case, there was a bad ground so it didn't trip the CB, and the kid died. At the NFPA tech session where we voted to sustain the new rule, a Schneider (I believe--I'd have to check my notes) rep told me they had surveyed compressors of various brands across the country, fed by CBs of various brands, and found that bad grounds to them are disturbingly common.

    Does it apply on retrofit/replacement? I'd say so. If I didn't enforce it if it came to my attention as an AHJ, I wouldn't count on sovereign immunity if someone died. Is it retroactive for existing equipment? I wouldn't think so, until either the HVAC or the panel or at least the CB was changed. Once that happened . . . over to Jerry.


  12. #12
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ormond Beach, Florida
    Posts
    27,559

    Default Re: new gfci code for ac units

    Quote Originally Posted by david shapiro View Post
    Bill, a disconnect is not an outlet anywhere I've seen "outlet" defined by authorities. We don't utilize electricity at a switch or disconnect, or at something plugged in to a switch or disconnect, unless that also has a lampholder, motor, receptacle, or equivalent device as part of it. It an outlet were something that can disconnect power, the service disconnect would be an outlet, and so would the branch circuit breaker. So this really is written to apply to outdoor residential LOADS.
    David, many disconnects are also "outlets" in that, at the load side of the disconnect, it the "outlet" of the circuit. An disconnect for an condenser unit is an example of such as the "disconnect" is located at the end of the circuit at the condenser unit, and that disconnects the air conditioning condenser unit at the load side of the disconnect from the "outlet" (the line side) of the disconnect.

    Does it apply on retrofit/replacement? I'd say so. If I didn't enforce it if it came to my attention as an AHJ, I wouldn't count on sovereign immunity if someone died. Is it retroactive for existing equipment? I wouldn't think so, until either the HVAC or the panel or at least the CB was changed. Once that happened . . . over to Jerry.
    Few things in the NEC are retroactive, and those that are are retroactive upon something being replaced. The retroactive one which uses different terminology is for Edison base fuses which have been overfused. The NEC does not say upon replacement, it says on evidence of overfusing, and evidence of overfusing can only exist if the fuse has been removed and "replaced" ("replaced" does not specify "replaced with new", thus a "removed and replaced" item which was 'disconnected and removed, after whatever reason it was removed for is done, the item was replaced into its original position'.

    Jerry Peck
    Construction Litigation Consultant ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Location
    Maryland, DC, and Northern Virginia, electrical only
    Posts
    189

    Default Re: new gfci code for ac units

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    David, many disconnects are also "outlets" in that, at the load side of the disconnect, it the "outlet" of the circuit. An disconnect for an condenser unit is an example of such as the "disconnect" is located at the end of the circuit at the condenser unit, and that disconnects the air conditioning condenser unit at the load side of the disconnect from the "outlet" (the line side) of the disconnect.
    Jerry, I at least will agree to disagree here. "The point at which it is taken," per Art 100, to my mind is the downstream end of that lead coming from the disconnect, not the disconnect itself b ut the equipment or receptacle it ties to. Can we say it is equally plausibly the upstream end of that lead, downstream of the disconnect? Hmm. Maybe. If so, can you argue for the lugs on the disconnect? Maybe.


  14. #14
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ormond Beach, Florida
    Posts
    27,559

    Default Re: new gfci code for ac units

    Quote Originally Posted by david shapiro View Post
    Jerry, I at least will agree to disagree here. "The point at which it is taken," per Art 100, to my mind is the downstream end of that lead coming from the disconnect, not the disconnect itself b ut the equipment or receptacle it ties to. Can we say it is equally plausibly the upstream end of that lead, downstream of the disconnect? Hmm. Maybe. If so, can you argue for the lugs on the disconnect? Maybe.
    David,

    The disconnect in such an installation is disconnect the appliance (load side of disconnect) from the circuit (line side of the disconnect), the now nothing (removed conductors to the appliance) is the outlet.

    Jerry Peck
    Construction Litigation Consultant ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •