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Thread: Messy wires

  1. #1
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    Default Messy wires

    Is there any code that would prohibit the bending / curling of the wires like this??

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  2. #2
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    Default Re: Messy wires

    Not sure about your question, but, is that panel mounted directly on masonry? Shouldn't be.

    "There is no exception to the rule that every rule has an exception." -James Thurber, writer and cartoonist (1894-1961)
    www.ArnoldHomeInspections.com

  3. #3
    Tim Moreira's Avatar
    Tim Moreira Guest

    Default Re: Messy wires

    Bill,

    No answer to your question on the wires, but your camera's date stamp is a month ahead.


  4. #4
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    Default Re: Messy wires

    Tim,

    I just like to be ahead of the times.

    So far this is all I could find - it is a foot note, which makes it non enforceable.

    NECA 1, Article 9, Section N:
    n) The length of conductors within cabinets and
    cutout boxes shall be sufficient to neatly train the
    conductor to the termination point with no excess
    (see Figure 11). Allow sufficient cable length for thermal
    contraction of conductors to prevent damage of
    insulation or dislodging connections.

    Bill Siegel
    Florida Home Inspection Team Inc.

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    Default Re: Messy wires

    Quote Originally Posted by John Arnold View Post
    Not sure about your question, but, is that panel mounted directly on masonry? Shouldn't be.

    Why not?

    It's allowed.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Messy wires

    Quote Originally Posted by william siegel View Post
    Is there any code that would prohibit the bending / curling of the wires like this??
    From the NEC.
    - 110.3(B)

    - 110.3 Examination, Identification, Installation, and Use of Equipment.
    - - (B) Installation and Use. Listed or labeled equipment shall be installed and used in accordance with any instructions included in the listing or labeling.

    I went back to the manufactures (several of them, including Southwire, one of the largest, they make RomexTM) and the answer is that the conductors are rated for minimum bends with a radius of 4 times the diameter of the conductor (including insulation).

    If a conductor (including insulation) is .25 inches in diameter, then the MINIMUM bending radius would be 1 inch, or a 2 inch diameter circle.

    Those curly-ques look a lot tighter radius than 1 inch.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Messy wires

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Why not?

    It's allowed.
    Say what? Panel corrosion, is what I've always been told. Dang.

    "There is no exception to the rule that every rule has an exception." -James Thurber, writer and cartoonist (1894-1961)
    www.ArnoldHomeInspections.com

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Messy wires

    Jerry
    I seem to remember it being 10 times the dia. of the WIRE.

    ' correct a wise man and you gain a friend... correct a fool and he'll bloody your nose'.

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Messy wires

    IMO one important practical implication of workmanship like that - not that you can detect it during a typical home inspection - is that similar kinks and tight bends elsewhere may have further tightened *inside* conduit as they were pulled through various junctions.


  10. #10
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    Default Re: Messy wires

    Sorry Jerry
    You looked it up, I did not.
    I'm thinking about small dia wire for alarms and phones.

    ' correct a wise man and you gain a friend... correct a fool and he'll bloody your nose'.

  11. #11
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    Default Re: Messy wires

    Quote Originally Posted by John Arnold View Post
    Say what? Panel corrosion, is what I've always been told. Dang.
    John,

    ALL metallic panel enclosures are made with little raised (out from the back) mounting nubs. Those mounting nubs (I hate to call them 'mounting feet') protrude out 1/4" from the back of the enclosure. When the enclosure is installed on a masonry wall (inside or outside), those mounting nubs keep the back of the panel (are designed to anyway) 1/4" out from the surface of the wall.

    Which is why, for panels installed outdoors and in other wet or damp environments, there is supposed to be a 1/4" air space between the back of the enclosure and the wall, and why *the perimeter of the enclosure SHOULD NOT be caulked*. I don't know about your area, but where I go, everyone wants to caulk that space around the outside of the enclosure.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  12. #12
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    Default Re: Messy wires

    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Cantrell View Post
    Jerry
    I seem to remember it being 10 times the dia. of the WIRE.
    The NEC, for over 600 volts, specifies '5 times the diameter of the conductor' (including insulation) as the minimum radius. Unfortunately, for 0-600 volts, that was not included.

    So, even though the panel enclosures are required to have proper minimum bending space (at 5 times the diameter of the wire size designed to be used), the conductors themselves (for under 600 volts) was not addressed.

    Me being me, I had to know, so I called the manufacturers and talked with their engineers. This is what they sent me, it is from the Insulated Cable Engineering Association.

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    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  13. #13
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    Default Re: Messy wires

    Jerry, John and I frequent a lot of the same areas for our inspections and most older homes in our area have stacked stone walls which are rather porous. I've seen more than a couple panel boxes that were mounted directly on these walls and had corrosion on and inside the box, on the breaker contacts, and on the bus bars. Whether it is a service panel or junction box, I recommend that they be mounted on wooden boards against the wall.


  14. #14
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    Default Re: Messy wires

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick Ostrowski View Post
    Whether it is a service panel or junction box, I recommend that they be mounted on wooden boards against the wall.
    Won't hurt to mount it that way, as long as the wood is PT, but then, the new PT could create a worse problem with corrosion and the metal than the stone wall would. Just a thought.

    Instead of mounting it on wood in cases like yours, I would recommend mounting them on Unistrut channels.

    About Unistrut

    Last edited by Jerry Peck; 04-18-2007 at 08:23 AM. Reason: I thunk that 'Trackback' was adding the link, guess it twern't
    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

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