Results 1 to 24 of 24
  1. #1
    Michael Vasquez's Avatar
    Michael Vasquez Guest

    Default Double wired breaker

    Double wired 15 amp Cutler Hammer breakers. Are there types of breakers that allow two wires and if so how would you identify the breakers in the panel? Thank You

    Similar Threads:
    NHIE Practice Exam

  2. #2
    dick whitfield's Avatar
    dick whitfield Guest

    Default Re: Double wired breaker

    The only breakers I know of that are rated for two wires of the same size is the Square D QO series...could be others but ....


  3. #3
    Richard Moore's Avatar
    Richard Moore Guest

    Default Re: Double wired breaker

    Some, (maybe all new), Cutler Hammer CH breakers, 10-30-amp single pole, also accept 2 14-10 copper conductors. Those and the Square-D (QO and Homeline) are the only ones.

    Last edited by Richard Moore; 04-23-2007 at 07:39 PM.

  4. #4
    Michael Vasquez's Avatar
    Michael Vasquez Guest

    Default Re: Double wired breaker

    Dick and Richard thanks for the info.


  5. #5
    Richard Rushing's Avatar
    Richard Rushing Guest

    Default Re: Double wired breaker

    See attached:

    ***IMPORTANT*** You Need To Register To View Images ***IMPORTANT*** You Need To Register To View Images
    Last edited by Richard Rushing; 04-24-2007 at 12:31 PM. Reason: As is the case with most of my illustrations, this one too was "heisted" from some other 'Dick'

  6. #6
    Michael Vasquez's Avatar
    Michael Vasquez Guest

    Default Re: Double wired breaker

    Thanks for the attachment Richard


  7. #7
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ormond Beach, Florida
    Posts
    25,317

    Default Re: Double wired breaker

    BUT ... (that big 'but') ...

    You DID notice that ONLY applies to the *15 amp* breaker, right?

    Not listed or allowed for the 20 amp breaker.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  8. #8
    Richard Rushing's Avatar
    Richard Rushing Guest

    Default Re: Double wired breaker

    I think someone would have to be blind to not see that since it's highlighted....

    Rich


  9. #9
    Richard Moore's Avatar
    Richard Moore Guest

    Default Re: Double wired breaker

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    BUT ... (that big 'but') ...

    You DID notice that ONLY applies to the *15 amp* breaker, right?

    Not listed or allowed for the 20 amp breaker.
    As the original creator and poster of that highlighted photo (from May, 2005) I have to say you are wrong there. The wire size ranges apply to everything within that section...in this case 10 to 30 amps. Otherwise, the 25 and 30 amp breakers are allowed no wires. That wouldn't make much sense.


  10. #10
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ormond Beach, Florida
    Posts
    25,317

    Default Re: Double wired breaker

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Moore View Post
    As the original creator and poster of that highlighted photo (from May, 2005) I have to say you are wrong there. The wire size ranges apply to everything within that section...in this case 10 to 30 amps. Otherwise, the 25 and 30 amp breakers are allowed no wires. That wouldn't make much sense.
    Rich,

    You want to take that one?

    (See, there was a reason behind my posting that.)

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Philadelphia PA
    Posts
    3,177

    Default Re: Double wired breaker

    Richard -

    "The wire size ranges apply to everything within that section...in this case 10 to 30 amps."

    So the chart is indicating a 30 amp breaker can have a #14 wire? I don't think so.

    "There is no exception to the rule that every rule has an exception." -James Thurber, writer and cartoonist (1894-1961)
    www.ArnoldHomeInspections.com

  12. #12
    Richard Rushing's Avatar
    Richard Rushing Guest

    Default Re: Double wired breaker

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Rich,

    You want to take that one?

    (See, there was a reason behind my posting that.)

    Naaa... go ahead. That's right in your wheel-house.

    RR


  13. #13
    Richard Moore's Avatar
    Richard Moore Guest

    Default Re: Double wired breaker

    Quote Originally Posted by John Arnold View Post
    Richard -

    "
    So the chart is indicating a 30 amp breaker can have a #14 wire? I don't think so.
    Aw c'mon guys. Use a little common sense here. Look further down the chart. Using your logic in the 2nd section, it's OK to have #14 on a 35 and in the third section, 50-amp breakers need 3/0!

    It's the wire size the lugs in that section will accept...NOT the recommended wire size for every amperage breaker.

    Sheesh!


  14. #14
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Philadelphia PA
    Posts
    3,177

    Default Re: Double wired breaker

    I see what you're saying now. That chart is a tad confusing - at least to a semi-senile person like myself.

    "There is no exception to the rule that every rule has an exception." -James Thurber, writer and cartoonist (1894-1961)
    www.ArnoldHomeInspections.com

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ormond Beach, Florida
    Posts
    25,317

    Default Re: Double wired breaker

    The chart is not confusing, okay, I guess it is, because at least one here IS confused.

    The chart says:
    Ampere Rating | Wire Size Range

    10 amp rating | (1) #14-8 (Jerry's note: That means (1), yes *1*, wire sized #14-#8.)

    15 amp rating | (2) #14-10 (Jerry's note: That means (2), yes *2*, wires sized #14-#10. Note that the terminal on the 10 amp breaker is rated for a larger wire than on the 15 amp breaker, that's because IT IS NOT rated for (2) wires, just one wire.)

    20 amp rating | (1) #14-6 (Jerry's note: That means (1), yes *1*, wire sized #14-#6. Note that the terminal on the 20 amp breaker is again rated for a larger wire than on the 15 amp breaker, that's because IT IS NOT rated for (2) wires, just one wire.)

    25 amp rating | same as the 20 amp rated breaker
    30 amp rating | same as the 20 amp rated breaker

    35 amp rating | #14-2 (Jerry's note: That means (1), yes *1*, wire sized #14-#2.

    Now, go down to the sub notes and you will see that sub note 1 means it applies to 1 and 2 pole breakers.

    You will see that sub note 2 means that breaker (the one and only one rated for two wires) can use solid and stranded TOGETHER.

    So, the 15 amp breaker *is the only breaker on that chart rated to TWO (2) wires, and, that applies to single pole and double pole breakers, and, that you can mix stranded and solid wires together.

    BUT ONLY on the 15 amp breaker.

    NONE of the other sizes.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  16. #16
    Richard Moore's Avatar
    Richard Moore Guest

    Default Re: Double wired breaker

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    The chart is not confusing, okay, I guess it is, because at least one here IS confused.
    If you are referring to me, Jerry, just say so!

    "10 amp rating | (1) #14-8 (Jerry's note: That means (1), yes *1*, wire sized #14-#8.)
    10 amp rating | (1) #14-8 (Jerry's note: That means (1), yes *1*, wire sized #14-#8.)

    15 amp rating | (2) #14-10 (Jerry's note: That means (2), yes *2*, wires sized #14-#10. Note that the terminal on the 10 amp breaker is rated for a larger wire than on the 15 amp breaker, that's because IT IS NOT rated for (2) wires, just one wire.)

    20 amp rating | (1) #14-6 (Jerry's note: That means (1), yes *1*, wire sized #14-#6. Note that the terminal on the 20 amp breaker is again rated for a larger wire than on the 15 amp breaker, that's because IT IS NOT rated for (2) wires, just one wire.)"

    WRONG!!!

    Let's take that 20-amp:
    (1) #14-6 (3). My bold because you seemed to ignore that. The note (3) indicates it is for 3-pole breakers. Exactly where does that leave you for what's allowed for a single-pole 20-amp? Or 25 or 30 amp?

    And if you insist on just reading straight across, please explain the "requirement" that 50-amp breakers NEED 3/0.

    I have been wrong before but I'm not the confused one when it comes to reading this SIMPLE chart. I'm actually baffled that anyone would read it the way you are. However, for your benefit, I will e-mail Eaton tonight and see if I can get them to reply to this. If I'm wrong I will apologize profusely. Can I expect the same from you?


  17. #17
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ormond Beach, Florida
    Posts
    25,317

    Default Re: Double wired breaker

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Moore View Post
    If I'm wrong I will apologize profusely. Can I expect the same from you?
    Yep.

    But I expect to see your apology tomorrow when they respond.



    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  18. #18
    Richard Rushing's Avatar
    Richard Rushing Guest

    Default Re: Double wired breaker

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    The chart is not confusing, okay, I guess it is, because at least one here IS confused.

    The chart says:
    Ampere Rating | Wire Size Range

    10 amp rating | (1) #14-8 (Jerry's note: That means (1), yes *1*, wire sized #14-#8.)

    15 amp rating | (2) #14-10 (Jerry's note: That means (2), yes *2*, wires sized #14-#10. Note that the terminal on the 10 amp breaker is rated for a larger wire than on the 15 amp breaker, that's because IT IS NOT rated for (2) wires, just one wire.)

    20 amp rating | (1) #14-6 (Jerry's note: That means (1), yes *1*, wire sized #14-#6. Note that the terminal on the 20 amp breaker is again rated for a larger wire than on the 15 amp breaker, that's because IT IS NOT rated for (2) wires, just one wire.)

    25 amp rating | same as the 20 amp rated breaker
    30 amp rating | same as the 20 amp rated breaker

    35 amp rating | #14-2 (Jerry's note: That means (1), yes *1*, wire sized #14-#2.

    Now, go down to the sub notes and you will see that sub note 1 means it applies to 1 and 2 pole breakers.

    You will see that sub note 2 means that breaker (the one and only one rated for two wires) can use solid and stranded TOGETHER.

    So, the 15 amp breaker *is the only breaker on that chart rated to TWO (2) wires, and, that applies to single pole and double pole breakers, and, that you can mix stranded and solid wires together.

    BUT ONLY on the 15 amp breaker.

    NONE of the other sizes.

    Got back into this one late tonight. What Jerry posted is exactly how I too read it.

    (TO ALL) Please do not post apologies for your stated positions... if you are wrong, just post pictures of your old lady so others can gauk at her. Or, if you have caught her with the mailman (delivering more than mail), please post those pictures as well . Shoot, I have some I can't wait to post with old Debbie (my 'X') getting a physical from the whole Mormon Tebernacle Choir.

    Rich


  19. #19
    Richard Moore's Avatar
    Richard Moore Guest

    Default Re: Double wired breaker


    Richard,
    You are correct, 10-30 amp 1 and 2 pole breakers can accept a single conductor #14-8 or 2 conductors #14-10. If you see on the left hand side of the breaker if you are looking at the front, the wire capacity is molded into the plastic.
    Thank you for your enquiry,
    Click here to answer 2 questions about the service you received today!
    <
    https://www.ch.cutler-hammer.com/dfgserve/serve.do?applicationId=1341&f
    ormId=2441>
    Pravin Khopkar
    EatonCare, Technical Resource Center
    Eaton Corporation, Electrical Business
    175 Vista Boulevard (Avery Creek)
    Arden, NC 28704
    Fax: 828 651 0549
    trc@eaton.com
    www.Eaton.com <http://www.Eaton.com>


    -----Original Message-----
    From: TRC, Technical Resource Center
    Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2007 4:18 AM
    To: 'richard@rainspect.com'
    Subject: RE: Technical Product Question-PK0425-07

    Richard,
    I have forwarded your query to our residential breaker specialist. I am
    awaiting his reply, will get back soon.
    Thank you for your enquiry,
    Click here to answer 2 questions about the service you received today!
    <
    https://www.ch.cutler-hammer.com/dfgserve/serve.do?applicationId=1341&f
    ormId=2441>
    Pravin Khopkar
    EatonCare, Technical Resource Center
    Eaton Corporation, Electrical Business
    175 Vista Boulevard (Avery Creek)
    Arden, NC 28704
    Fax: 828 651 0549
    trc@eaton.com
    www.Eaton.com <http://www.Eaton.com>


    -----Original Message-----
    From: richard@rainspect.com [
    mailto:richard@rainspect.com]
    Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2007 11:17 PM
    To: TRC, Technical Resource Center; C-H, Email Database
    Subject: Technical Product Question

    Other
    Circuit Breakers
    I'm a home inspector and this has to do with residential breakers
    designed for one or two conductors, and table 3-30 for the wire size
    range under the lugs of CH breakers in particular. The table seems
    clear to me in that all three options for 10-30 amp breakers applies to
    all the breakers in that section. IE. All 10 through 30 amp, single
    and double pole breakers can accept two 14-10 conductors. I have
    another inspector (actually more than one) on a Home Inspection forum
    insisting on reading straight across the chart, line by line, and saying
    that only 15-amp breakers can have two conductors...because that happens
    to be on the same line. I'm frustrated in my attempt to point out that
    the chart makes no sense that way.
    Perhaps you could view the discussion at
    http://www.inspectionnews.net/home_inspection/electrical-systems-home-in
    spection-commercial-inspection/669-double-wired-breaker.html ?
    A simple answer from Eaton on the forum would be the ideal, but an
    e-mail clarification that I can pass on would also be OK.
    Your help would be much appreciated before I tear my hair out.
    Thanks,
    Richard Moore
    'nuff said.




  20. #20
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ormond Beach, Florida
    Posts
    25,317

    Default Re: Double wired breaker

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Moore View Post
    'nuff said.
    Nope.

    As stated above, I apologize, you were, are, correct and I am, was, wrong. How do you say that "profusely"?

    See, I am wrong on occasion, and this was one of those occasions.

    Profusely enough?

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  21. #21
    Richard Moore's Avatar
    Richard Moore Guest

    Default Re: Double wired breaker

    LOL...if anything...too much. My apologies for the way I handled it, but you can be a tough nut to crack.


  22. #22
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Knoxville, TN
    Posts
    2,332

    Default Re: Double wired breaker

    We had a tornado watch in my area tonight. Now I know what was really going on - Jerry actually admitted he was wrong - in writing for all to see.

    I think the moon shifted axis too.
    JF


  23. #23
    Richard Rushing's Avatar
    Richard Rushing Guest

    Default Re: Double wired breaker

    o.k.-- wrong is wrong....

    ***IMPORTANT*** You Need To Register To View Images ***IMPORTANT*** You Need To Register To View Images

  24. #24
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ormond Beach, Florida
    Posts
    25,317

    Default Re: Double wired breaker

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Feldmann View Post
    We had a tornado watch in my area tonight. Now I know what was really going on - Jerry actually admitted he was wrong - in writing for all to see.
    Jack,

    And it was not the first time either ...

    ... maybe the first time in recent memory ...

    ... but, then ... as we age, the memory goes too.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •