Results 1 to 40 of 40
  1. #1
    Jerome W. Young's Avatar
    Jerome W. Young Guest

    Default receptacle in attic

    i found this receptacle inthe attic next tot he chimney. there was no access within 20 feet. maybe left for audio video or something? is this allowed?

    Similar Threads:
    ***IMPORTANT*** You Need To Register To View Images ***IMPORTANT*** You Need To Register To View Images
    Elite MGA Home Inspector E&O Insurance

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Dallas, Texas
    Posts
    4,112

    Default Re: receptacle in attic

    Yep, not only allowed, it is required if you have HVAC in the attic, very common here.

    Jim Luttrall
    www.MrInspector.net
    Dallas, Texas

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ormond Beach, Florida
    Posts
    25,313

    Default Re: receptacle in attic

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerome W. Young View Post
    i found this receptacle inthe attic next tot he chimney. there was no access within 20 feet. maybe left for audio video or something? is this allowed?
    Nope, not allowed, not unless there is an access walkway to it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Luttrall View Post
    Yep, not only allowed, it is required if you have HVAC in the attic, very common here.
    That's because there is an access walkway to it (at least, there is supposed to be).

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Dallas, Texas
    Posts
    4,112

    Default Re: receptacle in attic

    Nope, not allowed, not unless there is an access walkway to it.
    Jerry, you got a reference on that?

    Jim Luttrall
    www.MrInspector.net
    Dallas, Texas

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Hudson, WI
    Posts
    645

    Default Re: receptacle in attic

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Nope, not allowed, not unless there is an access walkway to it.
    And if it's used for a Radon mitigation fan you would say the same? Reference please.


  6. #6
    Richard Abrams's Avatar
    Richard Abrams Guest

    Cool Re: receptacle in attic

    It would be required in this Jurisdiction especially if there were any equipment up there such as vent fan, furnace, or radon equipment.


  7. #7
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ormond Beach, Florida
    Posts
    25,313

    Default Re: receptacle in attic

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Luttrall View Post
    Jerry, you got a reference on that?
    Sorry for the delay, my wife's birthday today so we went out for dinner.

    From the 2008 NEC (but it's been in there for decades). (underlining is mine).
    - 300.15 Boxes, Conduit Bodies, or Fittings — Where Required.
    - - A box shall be installed at each outlet and switch point for concealed knob-and-tube wiring.
    - - Fittings and connectors shall be used only with the specific wiring methods for which they are designed and listed.
    - - Where the wiring method is conduit, tubing, Type AC cable, Type MC cable, Type MI cable, nonmetallic-sheathed cable, or other cables, a box or conduit body shall be installed at each conductor splice point, outlet point, switch point, junction point, termination point, or pull point, unless otherwise permitted in 300.15(A) through (M).
    - - (A) Wiring Methods with Interior Access. A box or conduit body shall not be required for each splice, junction, switch, pull, termination, or outlet points in wiring methods with removable covers, such as wireways, multioutlet assemblies, auxiliary gutters, and surface raceways. The covers shall be accessible after installation.

    - 210.63 Heating, Air-Conditioning, and Refrigeration Equipment Outlet.
    - - A 125-volt, single-phase, 15- or 20-ampere-rated receptacle outlet shall be installed at an accessible location for the servicing of heating, air-conditioning, and refrigeration equipment. The receptacle shall be located on the same level and within 7.5 m (25 ft) of the heating, air-conditioning, and refrigeration equipment. The receptacle outlet shall not be connected to the load side of the equipment disconnecting means.
    - - - Exception: A receptacle outlet shall not be required at one- and two-family dwellings for the service of evaporative coolers.
    - - - - FPN: See 210.8 for ground-fault circuit-interrupter requirements.

    - Accessible (as applied to equipment). Admitting close approach; not guarded by locked doors, elevation, or other effective means.
    - Accessible (as applied to wiring methods). Capable of being removed or exposed without damaging the building structure or finish or not permanently closed in by the structure or finish of the building.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Orlando, FL
    Posts
    1,281

    Default Re: receptacle in attic



    More selective interpretations.


  9. #9
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ormond Beach, Florida
    Posts
    25,313

    Default Re: receptacle in attic

    Quote Originally Posted by Dom D'Agostino View Post


    More selective interpretations.
    I think everyone knows the answer to this question:

    Are you allowed to have junction boxes in the attic?

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Hudson, WI
    Posts
    645

    Default Re: receptacle in attic

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    I think everyone knows the answer to this question:

    Are you allowed to have junction boxes in the attic?
    As long as they are accessible.


  11. #11
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ormond Beach, Florida
    Posts
    25,313

    Default Re: receptacle in attic

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Larson View Post
    As long as they are accessible.

    BINGO!

    We have a winner.

    Now, for a bonus question ... define "accessible".

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Hudson, WI
    Posts
    645

    Default Re: receptacle in attic

    - Accessible (as applied to wiring methods). Capable of being removed or exposed without damaging the building structure or finish or not permanently closed in by the structure or finish of the building.


  13. #13
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ormond Beach, Florida
    Posts
    25,313

    Default Re: receptacle in attic

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Larson View Post
    - Accessible (as applied to wiring methods). Capable of being removed or exposed without damaging the building structure or finish or not permanently closed in by the structure or finish of the building.
    That is one of three choices, here are the three choices.

    - Accessible (as applied to equipment). Admitting close approach; not guarded by locked doors, elevation, or other effective means. (Jerry's note: Does allow the use of a portable ladder. Refers to the receptacle, lights fixtures, etc. in that box. - Generally speaking, this one and the next one kind of fade together over one another in some ways. Neither, this one nor the next one allows for crawling through an attic over trusses or ceiling joists.)

    - Accessible (as applied to wiring methods). Capable of being removed or exposed without damaging the building structure or finish or not permanently closed in by the structure or finish of the building. (Jerry's note: Does allow the use of a portable ladder. Refers to the wiring method, wiring, box, etc. - Generally speaking, this one and the previous one kind of fade together over one another in some ways. Neither, this one nor the one above allows for crawling through an attic over trusses or ceiling joists.)

    - Accessible, Readily (Readily Accessible). Capable of being reached quickly for operation, renewal, or inspections without requiring those to whom ready access is requisite to climb over or remove obstacles or to resort to portable ladders, and so forth. (Jerry's note: Does not allow the use of a portable ladder.)

    That means, you are allowed to use a portable ladder and install the outlet box within reach of the attic access opening, or, install the junction boxes facing down through the ceiling for access from below, or, install a walkway to the junction box.

    Also don't forget, you will be doing 'whatever' to this while it is energized ... "likely to require examination, adjustment, servicing, or maintenance while energized" ... would you want to fall back through the ceiling?

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Hudson, WI
    Posts
    645

    Default Re: receptacle in attic

    Your question was specifically for junction boxes.


  15. #15

    Default Re: receptacle in attic

    Is there any hazard or problem with that receptacle being installed in that location?


  16. #16
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ormond Beach, Florida
    Posts
    25,313

    Default Re: receptacle in attic

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Larson View Post
    Your question was specifically for junction boxes.
    Junction boxes and outlet boxes are all the same, covered under the same section.

    In the case in the photo, there is a receptacle in that outlet/junction box.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ormond Beach, Florida
    Posts
    25,313

    Default Re: receptacle in attic

    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon Whitmore View Post
    Is there any hazard or problem with that receptacle being installed in that location?

    You mean other than a hazard or problem for the person trying to access it?

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Hudson, WI
    Posts
    645

    Default Re: receptacle in attic

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    That means, you are allowed to use a portable ladder and install the outlet box within reach of the attic access opening, or, install the junction boxes facing down through the ceiling for access from below, or, install a walkway to the junction box.
    I don't agree. The vast majority of attic spaces here do not have walkways and are filled with 16-20" on insulation. Walkways would be extremely impractical.

    Even in this case a junction box or receptacle for a Radon fan would be "accessible" by definition.

    It is not readily accessible.

    It is not enclosed in the building structure or its surfaces or buried out of sight.


  19. #19
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ormond Beach, Florida
    Posts
    25,313

    Default Re: receptacle in attic

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Larson View Post
    I don't agree. The vast majority of attic spaces here do not have walkways and are filled with 16-20" on insulation. Walkways would be extremely impractical.
    I agree, so that means 'don't put the receptacle way back there'.

    Even in this case a junction box or receptacle for a Radon fan would be "accessible" by definition.
    Not by this, which would apply to the receptacle:
    - Accessible (as applied to equipment). Admitting close approach; not guarded by locked doors, elevation, or other effective means.

    It is not readily accessible.
    I agree with that, and no one is saying it needs to be "readily accessible", portable ladders are permitted to be used to make it "accessible".

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Hudson, WI
    Posts
    645

    Default Re: receptacle in attic

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Not by this, which would apply to the receptacle:
    - Accessible (as applied to equipment). Admitting close approach; not guarded by locked doors, elevation, or other effective means.
    Then you consider insulation as an effective means preventing access I guess. I don't.


  21. #21

    Default Re: receptacle in attic

    You mean other than a hazard or problem for the person trying to access it?
    I am trying to understand whether it would ever actually be a concern/ safety issue. It is not required to be there, and people don't have to use it, so I can't see why it would be a safety concern. I see junction boxes (not receptacles, the kind for splices) in the attic all the time, and believe they are allowed. I see that receptacle being there as being superior to having someone lug an extension cord up into the attic for a work light, etc.

    I could be wrong. The code is too confusing sometimes, so I like to base what I will write up in my report on common sense, etc.


  22. #22
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Dallas, Texas
    Posts
    4,112

    Default Re: receptacle in attic

    - Accessible (as applied to wiring methods). Capable of being removed or exposed without damaging the building structure or finish or not permanently closed in by the structure or finish of the building.
    Thanks for the reference Jerry, although I am having a hard time swallowing the interpretation.
    Where are you getting the "not allowed to use a portable ladder" part?
    I would think the definition above would cover junction boxes, outlets, etc.
    Are you applying the equipment definition?

    Jim Luttrall
    www.MrInspector.net
    Dallas, Texas

  23. #23
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ormond Beach, Florida
    Posts
    25,313

    Default Re: receptacle in attic

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Larson View Post
    Then you consider insulation as an effective means preventing access I guess. I don't.
    Michael,

    One of the problems you have, and some others have too, is trying to think like I think. That is apparent because you and some others try to tell me what I think or consider and you are way off base.

    I don't know if NOT thinking like I think if good or bad for you, however, good or bad, you are still incorrect.

    It is no "accessible" because there is no walkway there.

    I don't care if there is any insulation there or not.

    Why do I thing there needs to be a walkway there to be considered "accessible"? Easy, so easy I don't understand why you did not think that was my reason.

    THE CODE *requires* that walkway be installed to make a/c equipment, water heaters, and any other equipment and appliances in the attic ... "accessible". *I* don't require it, THE CODE DOES.

    There is a presumed standard of care and sensibility which says 'Hey, people walking across truss bottom chords and/ceiling joists have great potential to fall between those items, falling through the ceiling, being injured. And that risk INCREASE when one is up there repairing/servicing something over the risk of 'just walking' through there.'

    Don't believe there is that risk? Simply ask how many HIs have 'fallen through' and all the HIs were doing is "inspecting" not bringing in equipment and tools to service or repair things with.

    *YOU* may think otherwise, in which case maybe you do not write up missing walkways and/or missing service platforms at equipment and appliances in the attic.

    That's your choice - hopefully you will never need to think otherwise (say, after falling through) or have to defend yourself for having thought otherwise (when a client calls and says their service person said it is required and why didn't you write it up - or worse, that service person falls through and says 'Where to heck is that REQUIRED walkway and service platform - you need to call your home inspector and have him contact his insurance company').

    Oh, well, it's you and not me.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  24. #24
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ormond Beach, Florida
    Posts
    25,313

    Default Re: receptacle in attic

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Luttrall View Post
    Thanks for the reference Jerry, although I am having a hard time swallowing the interpretation.
    Where are you getting the "not allowed to use a portable ladder" part?
    Jim,

    The only definition I said "not allowed to use a portable ladder" at was for "accessible - readily" ... I am adding bold to the quote below to highlight it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    That is one of three choices, here are the three choices.

    - Accessible (as applied to equipment). Admitting close approach; not guarded by locked doors, elevation, or other effective means. (Jerry's note: Does allow the use of a portable ladder. Refers to the receptacle, lights fixtures, etc. in that box. - Generally speaking, this one and the next one kind of fade together over one another in some ways. Neither, this one nor the next one allows for crawling through an attic over trusses or ceiling joists.)

    - Accessible (as applied to wiring methods). Capable of being removed or exposed without damaging the building structure or finish or not permanently closed in by the structure or finish of the building. (Jerry's note: Does allow the use of a portable ladder. Refers to the wiring method, wiring, box, etc. - Generally speaking, this one and the previous one kind of fade together over one another in some ways. Neither, this one nor the one above allows for crawling through an attic over trusses or ceiling joists.)

    - Accessible, Readily (Readily Accessible). Capable of being reached quickly for operation, renewal, or inspections without requiring those to whom ready access is requisite to climb over or remove obstacles or to resort to portable ladders, and so forth. (Jerry's note: Does not allow the use of a portable ladder.)
    Are you applying the equipment definition?
    Yes. See the NEC definition below. (underlining is mine)

    Equipment. A general term, including material, fittings, devices, appliances, luminaires, apparatus, machinery, and the like used as a part of, or in connection with, an electrical installation.

    The other definition is for "as applied to wiring methods", which would include the types of wiring used (i.e., NM cable versus raceways, et al), the 'method' of installation for that type of wiring (i.e., how it is installed), etc.

    "The method" has less stringent accessibility requirements than does "the equipment".

    "The equipment" being referred to is the "device", i.e., the receptacle outlet.

    Even more stringent requirements for accessibility are placed on things which need to be "readily accessible". One which is not allowed it "or to resort to portable ladders". This definition does not, however, apply to the receptacle outlet in the photo.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  25. #25
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ormond Beach, Florida
    Posts
    25,313

    Default Re: receptacle in attic

    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon Whitmore View Post
    I am trying to understand whether it would ever actually be a concern/ safety issue.
    It is "because it is there".

    It is not required to be there, and people don't have to use it,
    So true ... they don't have to use it, but, "because it is there", they *WILL* use it, therein lies ...

    so I can't see why it would be a safety concern.
    ... the safety concern.

    I see junction boxes (not receptacles, the kind for splices) in the attic all the time, and believe they are allowed.
    No, they should all be facing down through the ceiling. We (HIs) see stuff done *all the time* which is "not allowed" - but it is still done. This is one of those items - *not allowed* ... *but done all the time*.

    I see that receptacle being there as being superior to having someone lug an extension cord up into the attic for a work light, etc.
    The person lugging up the extension cord is doing so at their own risk, the person using that receptacle is doing so at *not only their risk* but at the risk of the person who installed and the person who let it go without commenting on it.

    The code is too confusing sometimes,
    Absolutely no argument from me there - I am in total agreement with you.

    so I like to base what I will write up in my report on common sense, etc.
    "Common sense" is good ... but only if it is truly common sense. If an act encourages another act which is unsafe, then is the first act "common sense"? I think that it is not, and I suspect that I could defend my position in court better than you could defend your position saying it was "common sense".

    If you see a blind man about to walk out into traffic, do you stop him ... or say nothing and watch out of the corner of your eye to see if he makes it, not wanting anyone else to see or think that you saw what was about to happen?

    If he is hit, are you partially to blame?

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  26. #26
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Columbus GA
    Posts
    3,741

    Default Re: receptacle in attic

    Jerry
    I'm not being argumentative, or trying to put you on the spot.
    Sometimes a conventional means of being "accessible" is impractical or just not possible.
    Attic ventilation fans 12' high, with no access except through/from the roof.
    I don't ever remember seeing a walkway to "Can Lights".
    (I know that some "Can Lights" can be removed from below the ceiling, but can they all?)

    ' correct a wise man and you gain a friend... correct a fool and he'll bloody your nose'.

  27. #27
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ormond Beach, Florida
    Posts
    25,313

    Default Re: receptacle in attic

    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Cantrell View Post
    Attic ventilation fans 12' high, with no access except through/from the roof.
    Which makes it "accessible" via the use of a portable ladder. Code is minimum and does not address roof safety if this is installed on a 12/12 slope roof with the eave 30 feet high above the ground.

    I don't ever remember seeing a walkway to "Can Lights".
    (I know that some "Can Lights" can be removed from below the ceiling, but can they all?)
    To my knowledge, all are. Not all are as easy as others, but all are - all (I hate using that word) I've ever seen had some type of frame into which the housing ('can') was installed latter, or, as I've also seen, remodel recessed lights where the hole is cut into the ceiling and the housing pushed up into it, securing it in place with clips (which are removable to reverse the process). Once the housing is down and out, the junction box is either accessible right there at the opening, or attached to the housing and came out with it.

    Not all things are covered by code as code does not address common sense, but here is another code section addressing some things which are commonly installed in attics, soffits, and similar locations, and you can see the code's "accessible" intent in it:

    ARTICLE 600 Electric Signs and Outline Lighting
    - 600.21 Ballasts, Transformers, and Electronic Power Supplies.
    - - (A) Accessibility. Ballasts, transformers, and electronic power supplies shall be located where accessible and shall be securely fastened in place.
    - - (D) Working Space. A working space at least 900 mm (3 ft) high, 900 mm (3 ft) wide, by 900 mm (3 ft) deep shall be provided at each ballast, transformer, and electronic power supply or at its enclosure where not installed in a sign.
    - - (E) Attic and Soffit Locations. Ballasts, transformers, and electronic power supplies shall be permitted to be located in attics and soffits, provided there is an access door at least 900 mm by 562.5 mm (36 in. by 22 in.) and a passageway of at least 900 mm (3 ft) high by 600 mm (2 ft) wide with a suitable permanent walkway at least 300 mm (12 in.) wide extending from the point of entry to each component. At least one lighting outlet containing a switch or controlled by a wall switch shall be installed in such spaces. At least one point of control shall be at the usual point of entry to these spaces. The lighting outlet shall be provided at or near the equipment requiring servicing.

    Notice that the entry must be 36" by 22-1/2" and that the passageway must be 36" high by 24" wide, but the walkway only needs to be 12" wide within that 24" passageway. Again, code is minimum - you need a passageway large enough to allow a person to go through, but you are only required to provide a minimum width walking surface. I don't know why they did not go with a 24" wide walkway, somehow it was determined that 12" was minimum safe width, and code, being "minimum" went with it.

    Nonetheless, there is the permanent walkway required - a good and pertinent example of what the NEC considers "Accessible (as applied to equipment)." for equipment in an attic.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  28. #28
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Hudson, WI
    Posts
    645

    Default Re: receptacle in attic

    What does article 600 have to do with residential applications?


  29. #29
    Rick Fifield's Avatar
    Rick Fifield Guest

    Default Re: receptacle in attic

    IRC2003 - AF103.12 provides for an electric supply in an attic for future radon fan use if using a passive system.
    Also needed for HVAC servicing within 25' of unit.
    A light fixture is also an attic requirement.
    NM wiring needs to be secured (stapled)within 8 inches of box measured on sheathing. This looks like a HO job.
    By the way, here we raise our walkways and work platforms above the insulation.
    Rick


  30. #30
    Mark Jones's Avatar
    Mark Jones Guest

    Default Re: receptacle in attic

    This is something I wasn't aware of - at least this interpretation. I know that splices can't be hidden within walls, but never considered that they had to be accessible from within the living space of the dwelling.

    This discussion prompts me to include my interpretation of Jerry's statement that he believes all can light's can be removed from below the ceiling: Yes, anything can be removed if you make a big enough hole through the sheetrock!

    I have seen many that have a square box with a round hole in the bottom that couldn't be removed from below without cutting the ceiling (wallboard or whatever.) Am I missing something???


  31. #31
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ormond Beach, Florida
    Posts
    25,313

    Default Re: receptacle in attic

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Larson View Post
    What does article 600 have to do with residential applications?

    Ummmm ... Michael, did you read this in my post above? "but here is another code section addressing some things which are commonly installed in attics, soffits, and similar locations, and you can see the code's "accessible" intent in it"

    The code specifies *VERY FEW* electrical outlets or equipment in the attic, and, when it does, *IT ALSO* addresses "accessible".

    To wit, the above information regarding that section, and also for those items in my response to Rick, which follows below this post.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  32. #32
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ormond Beach, Florida
    Posts
    25,313

    Default Re: receptacle in attic

    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Fifield View Post
    IRC2003 - AF103.12 provides for an electric supply in an attic for future radon fan use if using a passive system.
    No problem, both the fan and the receptacle would need to be accessible.

    Also needed for HVAC servicing within 25' of unit.
    Yep, and, must be accessible, just like the HVAC equipment it is for must be (have a permanent walkway, etc. - look it up if you don't believe me).

    A light fixture is also an attic requirement.
    Yep again, and what are the locations of those attic lights? At the opening or at the equipment ... which needs a permanent walkway to ...

    NM wiring needs to be secured (stapled)within 8 inches of box measured on sheathing. This looks like a HO job.
    Huh? Nm cable needs to be secured within 12 of the box ... not "stapled", "secured" by any approved means ... also, *not* "measured on sheathing" ... measured along the cable.

    By the way, here we raise our walkways and work platforms above the insulation.
    As they all should be, to avoid crushing the insulation and to allow for the full depth of required/desired insulation.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  33. #33
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ormond Beach, Florida
    Posts
    25,313

    Default Re: receptacle in attic

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Jones View Post
    This is something I wasn't aware of - at least this interpretation. I know that splices can't be hidden within walls, but never considered that they had to be accessible from within the living space of the dwelling.
    Just a technical note on they way you said that: "accessible from within the living space of the dwelling", another, more inclusive way to re-state that would be "accessible from outside the wall, either inside or outside the dwelling" - this allows for junctions made in boxes which face the exterior surface and have appropriate weatherproof covers.

    This discussion prompts me to include my interpretation of Jerry's statement that he believes all can light's can be removed from below the ceiling: Yes, anything can be removed if you make a big enough hole through the sheetrock!
    Heck, with that thought, everything could be accessible and exposed with a bulldozer too.

    I have seen many that have a square box with a round hole in the bottom that couldn't be removed from below without cutting the ceiling (wallboard or whatever.) Am I missing something???
    To my knowledge, you can remove the inner trim on them all and access the electrical junction box from the opening ... without either the need to make a big enough hole or the use of a bulldozer.

    By the way, neither of those two methods of access would fulfill the definition of:
    - Accessible (as applied to wiring methods). Capable of being removed or exposed without damaging the building structure or finish or not permanently closed in by the structure or finish of the building.

    THE BOX and SPLICE (junction) use that definition of accessible ("Accessible (as applied to wiring methods). "), hence the need for a cover on the box, one which is NOT covered with plaster/drywall/etc. (yes, "etc." does include "wallpaper" ... wrap the cover in wall paper and make it removable - i.e., "accessible" - but don't just wallpaper over it making it "inaccessible without damaging the wallpaper".

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  34. #34
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Hudson, WI
    Posts
    645

    Default Re: receptacle in attic

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Ummmm ... Michael, did you read this in my post above? "but here is another code section addressing some things which are commonly installed in attics, soffits, and similar locations, and you can see the code's "accessible" intent in it"

    The code specifies *VERY FEW* electrical outlets or equipment in the attic, and, when it does, *IT ALSO* addresses "accessible".

    To wit, the above information regarding that section, and also for those items in my response to Rick, which follows below this post.
    Well actually I did read your post(all of them).

    Article 600 has nothing to do with residential.

    So we are back to:

    - Accessible (as applied to wiring methods). Capable of being removed or exposed without damaging the building structure or finish or not permanently closed in by the structure or finish of the building.

    Does the NEC handbook provide any additional enlightenment on this topic?

    I no longer have a copy.

    It's not my desire to be argumentative here but to point out that differences of opinion do exist. It's really a result of some ambiguity in the code.
    I used to work in the area of standards and code compliance and when there was a question of interpretation it was often kicked up the ladder to the chief engineer(often a member of the specific committee that wrote the standard) for a ruling. Standards and codes are written by committees and there is often less than full agreement on text wording and or meaning.

    I'm sure you have observed AHJs and even acknowledged code experts go at each other with their "interpretation" of the what the code states on a particular issue.


  35. #35
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ormond Beach, Florida
    Posts
    25,313

    Default Re: receptacle in attic

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Larson View Post
    Article 600 has nothing to do with residential.
    For the third time:
    "attics, soffits, and similar locations, and you can see the code's "accessible" intent in it"

    Here, I'll try to make it easier for you than I did in the others, although I thought it was easy enough in the others:

    i-t_h-a-s_t-o_d-o_w-i-t-h_a-t-t-i-c-s and what is considered "accessible" in attics and the like.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  36. #36
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Orlando, FL
    Posts
    1,281

    Default Re: receptacle in attic

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    For the third time:
    "attics, soffits, and similar locations, and you can see the code's "accessible" intent in it"

    Here, I'll try to make it easier for you than I did in the others, although I thought it was easy enough in the others:

    i-t_h-a-s_t-o_d-o_w-i-t-h_a-t-t-i-c-s and what is considered "accessible" in attics and the like.



    Jerry,

    Could you be any more condescending?

    And FWIW, "It has to do with attics..." is pretty lame.
    If you're having trouble getting your opinion across in a discussion, insulting people is rarely effective.


  37. #37
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Hudson, WI
    Posts
    645

    Default Re: receptacle in attic

    Thanks for talking slowly Jerry but it's not helping.

    Perhaps you should read the scope of article 600.


    P.S. Thanks Dom

    ***IMPORTANT*** You Need To Register To View Images ***IMPORTANT*** You Need To Register To View Images

  38. #38
    Brandon Chew's Avatar
    Brandon Chew Guest

    Default Re: receptacle in attic

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerome W. Young View Post
    i found this receptacle in the attic next to the chimney. there was no access within 20 feet. maybe left for audio video or something? is this allowed?
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Nope, not allowed, not unless there is an access walkway to it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Luttrall View Post
    Jerry, you got a reference on that?
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    From the 2008 NEC (but it's been in there for decades). (underlining is mine).

    - Accessible (as applied to equipment). Admitting close approach; not guarded by locked doors, elevation, or other effective means.

    - Accessible (as applied to wiring methods). Capable of being removed or exposed without damaging the building structure or finish or not permanently closed in by the structure or finish of the building.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    It is not "accessible" because there is no walkway there.

    Why do I think there needs to be a walkway there to be considered "accessible"?

    THE CODE *requires* that walkway be installed to make a/c equipment, water heaters, and any other equipment and appliances in the attic ... "accessible". *I* don't require it, THE CODE DOES.

    There is a presumed standard of care and sensibility which says 'Hey, people walking across truss bottom chords and/ceiling joists have great potential to fall between those items, falling through the ceiling, being injured. And that risk INCREASE when one is up there repairing/servicing something over the risk of 'just walking' through there.'
    I have edited out some of what was said in some of the above quotes, in order to focus the remainder of my post. I did not intend to, and I hope I did not, alter the meaning or intent of what is quoted.

    I agree with Jerry that once you install a receptacle outlet in the box, it is the "Accessible (as applied to equipment)" definition that applies to the receptacle in Jerome's photo. One thing to keep in mind is that this definition is in the NEC and in the electrical chapters of the IRC, so the "equipment" being referred to is electrical equipment. The definition of electrical equipment is also provided in the code and Jerry quoted it higher up in the thread.

    If we can accept Jerome's statement "there was no access within 20 feet" as true at face value we can end the discussion right there -- "no access" is not accessible.

    What some are saying and Jerry disagrees with, is that "walking across truss bottom chords and/ceiling joists" or through insulation to get to the receptacle meets the definition of "Accessible (as applied to equipment)". Jerry says that definition isn't met in an attic unless there is a walkway.

    What I have a hard time agreeing with, is the "THE CODE *requires* that walkway" part of the discussion. I'm aware of provisions in the code that require a walkway for some types of equipment that is installed in an attic. I'm not aware of a provision that requires a walkway for access to all electrical equipment, or to be even more specific to the original question, to all receptacles installed in an attic. If someone could provide those code sections I would be grateful. My opinion is that when the code wants a walkway to be installed in order to make certain equipment accessible, the code will say you need a walkway (as it does in specific areas of the code).

    I don't disagree that "walking across truss bottom chords and/ceiling joists" or through insulation" is risky business. But if we accept "there is a presumed standard of care and sensibility" that anyone in their right mind should not do that, then as a home inspector I'm either crazy or I should never move beyond the access hatch when there is no walkway in an attic.


  39. #39
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Hudson, WI
    Posts
    645

    Default Re: receptacle in attic

    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon Chew View Post
    What I have a hard time agreeing with, is the "THE CODE *requires* that walkway" part of the discussion. I'm aware of provisions in the code that require a walkway for some types of equipment that is installed in an attic. I'm not aware of a provision that requires a walkway for access to all electrical equipment, or to be even more specific to the original question, to all receptacles installed in an attic. If someone could provide those code sections I would be grateful. My opinion is that when the code wants a walkway to be installed in order to make certain equipment accessible, the code will say you need a walkway (as it does in specific areas of the code).

    I don't disagree that "walking across truss bottom chords and/ceiling joists" or through insulation" is risky business. But if we accept "there is a presumed standard of care and sensibility" that anyone in their right mind should not do that, then as a home inspector I'm either crazy or I should never move beyond the access hatch when there is no walkway in an attic.
    You have summed up the "discussion" quite well. Thank you.

    As I said earlier there is some ambiguity in the code that leads to different "opinions" on this issue.


  40. #40
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ormond Beach, Florida
    Posts
    25,313

    Default Re: receptacle in attic

    Quote Originally Posted by Dom D'Agostino View Post


    Jerry,

    Could you be any more condescending?
    If I were to try hard enough, maybe.

    FOR SOME PEOPLE ... they insist on trying to find ways to not apply knowledge, for them, no knowledge is better than some knowledge.

    And FWIW, "It has to do with attics..." is pretty lame.
    Not lame at all.

    The NEC does not say much about things in the attic, other than the generic references to be "accessible", HOWEVER, when the NEC DOES specially allow, or require, things in the attic, IT ALSO REQUIRES THEM TO BE ACCESSIBLE ...

    If you're having trouble getting your opinion across in a discussion, insulting people is rarely effective.
    Not having trouble with my opinion - see my first statement above - if the shoe fits, by all means, put it on and wear it.

    Trying to defend the 'least / lowest possible interpretation' does not do anyone any good.

    You can take that to court and count on it.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •