Thread: "Condo 2" - let's try to solve this

Let's allow the other condo thread to die its death at just over 100 posts without really answering what was being discussed, and lets try to answer that here.

Let's talk about several types of buildings: To keep it simple, let's keep the number of units to three for each example.

A - Two story, three units, one unit on top of the other two units, the electrical service to the building is located in one common location. - What do you call that building? What code applies (most likely applies) to that building: IBC or IRC?

B - Two story, three units, one unit beside the another unit beside the other unit, the electrical service to the building is located in one common location. - What do you call that building? What code applies (most likely applies) to that building: IBC or IRC?

C - Two story, three units, one unit beside the another unit beside the other unit, the electrical services are located as follows: one on the left side of the left unit, another on the front of the center unit, and another on the right side of the right unit. - What do you call that building? What code applies (most likely applies) to that building: IBC or IRC?

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Just looking at them from the street I would call (A) A Three family (B) A condo or co/op and (C) Row House. By the way I never read the first posting of the subject so may have repeated what others have said. If so, It would not surprise me. Wayne

Somebody get a gun and put this thread out of it's misery.

EC Jerry, Are the units joined or connected in any way in example B and C?

Originally Posted by Jerry McCarthy

EC Jerry, Are the units joined or connected in any way in example B and C?

WC Jerry,

Yes, "one unit beside the another unit beside the other unit", as in side-by-side-by-side ... i.e., the center unit is attached to the left unit and the right unit.

Originally Posted by Jim Luttrall

Somebody get a gun and put this thread out of it's misery.

If only it were that simple! Like the legendary Hydra, you cut off one of these threads and it just grows another.

"...Heracles courageously attacked the beast, flaying at each head with his sword, (in some versions a scythe) but he soon realized that as one head was severed another grew in its place. Heracles called for help from Iolaus, telling him to bring a flaming torch, and as Heracles cut off the heads one by one from the Hydra, Iolaus cauterized the open wounds with the torch preventing them from growing again."

I think the "flaming torch" refers to the ignore option in this case.

Originally Posted by Richard Moore

I think the "flaming torch" refers to the ignore option in this case.

Y'all can use the "ignore" option, or, here's a novel idea ... learn from the thread ... WOW! Who woulda thunk dat?

If only it were that simple! Like the legendary Hydra, you cut off one of these threads and it just grows another.

I tried to kill the last one. You're right, it won't die.

Aaron

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

Let's allow the other condo thread to die its death at just over 100 posts without really answering what was being discussed, and lets try to answer that here.

Let's talk about several types of buildings: To keep it simple, let's keep the number of units to three for each example.

A - Two story, three units, one unit on top of the other two units, the electrical service to the building is located in one common location. - What do you call that building? What code applies (most likely applies) to that building: IBC or IRC?

B - Two story, three units, one unit beside the another unit beside the other unit, the electrical service to the building is located in one common location. - What do you call that building? What code applies (most likely applies) to that building: IBC or IRC?

C - Two story, three units, one unit beside the another unit beside the other unit, the electrical services are located as follows: one on the left side of the left unit, another on the front of the center unit, and another on the right side of the right unit. - What do you call that building? What code applies (most likely applies) to that building: IBC or IRC?

Here is where I think Mr. Peck has made his error.

He has confused "dwelling" with "dwelling unit". While he has properly defined a "dwelling unit", in which a condominium would fall under....he has missed the fact that the NEC requires 100 Amps for a "one-family dwelling" (230.79(C)).

By definition, a "dwelling unit" can be as small as one room and a 100-amp requirement in such cases would be silly.

The IBC defines a "dwelling" as "a building that contains one or two dwelling units."

A condo unit does not qualify as a "dwelling" and is not required to have 100 amps of service. It cannot be considered a "building" since it is only the air space and floor coverings therein that the tenant owns, individually. The roof, exterior, common areas, etc...are a part of the building (collectively owned) and not a part of the condo unit, individually owned.

I need a diagram to render my opinion because they can either be condos or townhouses, or town-homes. (more than a single family residential dwelling on one lot)

Originally Posted by Jerry McCarthy

I need a diagram to render my opinion because they can either be condos or townhouses, or town-homes. (more than a single family residential dwelling on one lot)

Left Coast Jerry:

While you are at it draw a diagram of conjoined duplexes for your east coast namesake.

Aaron

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

Let's talk about several types of buildings: To keep it simple, let's keep the number of units to three for each example.

B - ... the electrical service to the building is located in one common location

C - ... the electrical services are located as follows: one on the left side of the left unit, another on the front of the center unit, and another on the right side of the right unit.

Originally Posted by Jerry McCarthy

I need a diagram to render my opinion because they can either be condos or townhouses, or town-homes. (more than a single family residential dwelling on one lot)

WC Jerry,

Those two parts of my original question should help clarify 'what they may not be' and 'what they may be'.

Who owns the property the dwellings ares sitting on? The HOA or the occupants?

WC Jerry,

Here is a drawing of them, one on top, the other on bottom.

I had to dig deep to answer your scenario.

Group 1: 3 dwelling units apartment building. NEC 230.72
Group 2: Ditto
Group 3: 3 dwelling units condominium
Reference; International Code Interpretation 2006.

Originally Posted by Jerry McCarthy

I had to dig deep to answer your scenario.

Group 1: 3 dwelling units apartment building. NEC 230.72
Group 2: Ditto
Group 3: 3 dwelling units condominium
Reference; International Code Interpretation 2006.

WC Jerry,

Would you copy and paste that interpretation? I don't know what section you are looking at.

I am assuming that "Group 1" = A; "Group 2" = B; and "Group 3" = C.

If so, then 'C' would not be a condominium, but would be "townhouses", i.e.,

"One-family dwelling" based on the NEC definition:
Dwelling, One-Family. A building that consists solely of one dwelling unit.

"Dwelling" based on the IBC definition.

DWELLING. A building that contains one or two dwelling units used, intended or designed to be used, rented, leased, let or hired out to be occupied for living purposes.

"Dwelling" based on the IRC definition.

DWELLING. Any building that contains one or two dwelling units used, intended, or designed to be built, used, rented, leased, let or hired out to be occupied, or that are occupied for living purposes.

Also "Townhouse" based on the IBC definition (which is also the same in the IRC).
TOWNHOUSE. A single-family dwelling unit constructed in a group of three or more attached units in which each unit extends from the foundation to roof and with open space on at least two sides.

Based on the location of the electrical service equipment (presuming the buildings are properly wired in this respect), 'B' must be treated as 'one structure' and 'C' must be treated as '3 separate structures', which also falls in with the definitions above.

A "condominium" is typically 'one structure', thus 'C' (Group 3) could not be a condominium based on the location of the electrical service equipment (again, presuming the building is properly wired in this respect).

With the service equipment located in one location as in 'B', that would indicate 'one structure', whereas with the service equipment located in separate locations 'on each structure', that would indicate 'separate structures'.

EC Jerry, I beg to differ in that town houses are not stacked. I.E. 2006 IRC Chapter Two - "Definitions: Townhouse; A single family dwelling unit constructed in a group of three or more attached units in which each unit extends from foundation to roof with open space on at least two sides." Therefore, units are not stacked. (second floor)
Jer, you need to give me your code references. I’m not saying your wrong, but I don’t understand your analysis. You may be correct on Group C in that it is not a condo, but rather 3 dwelling units on one lot, which in California we call a “triplex” which home inspector are allowed to inspect under the provisions of California Civil Code #7195 one to four dwelling units.

I’ve never understood that provision as it eliminates most apartment buildings of more than 4 units. The basic bane of our profession is due to state legislators who to a man (and woman) have never truly understood what we are about. Over the years I’ve watched Texas become a monstrous CF over legislating their home inspector industry.

Originally Posted by Jerry McCarthy

EC Jerry, I beg to differ in that town houses are not stacked. I.E. 2006 IRC Chapter Two - "Definitions: Townhouse; A single family dwelling unit constructed in a group of three or more attached units in which each unit extends from foundation to roof with open space on at least two sides." Therefore, units are not stacked. (second floor)

WC Jerry,

I know. That's shown in my description and in my drawing.

The only one which is "stacked" is 'A', where one unit is "stacked" on top of two units.

In both 'B' and 'C', the units are two story, from the ground up.

Jer, you need to give me your code references. I’m not saying your wrong, but I don’t understand your analysis.

I think the above clears that up?

You may be correct on Group C in that it is not a condo, but rather 3 dwelling units on one lot, which in California we call a “triplex” which home inspector are allowed to inspect under the provisions of California Civil Code #7195 one to four dwelling units.

By definition, they are not "dwelling units" but rather "dwellings". A "dwelling unit" is like you would find in 'A' - the condo.

Note that I specifically did not say anything about 'lot' as that would have given it all away.

Yes, 'A' is on 'one' lot, as is 'B' (both are single structures), however, 'C' is three separate attached structures, and, being separate, they could be 'on one lot' or 'on separate lots'. Typically, these ('C') would be found on separate lots, however, I could see these being constructed as 'more than one structure on a single lot', just not sure why anyone would want to do that.

Typically, in 'C', the lot line is down the center of the common fire wall between the units, with the owners owning the ground beneath the building foot print (and usually more land to the front and / or to the rear of the dwelling) to the sky above (as I've put it in the past to my clients).

As to who maintains the exterior and the roof, that depends on the association. Sometimes it is each owner, sometimes the HOA maintains it while the owner owns it - it is all subject to the rules of the HOA. I've seen all kinds of variations - such as the HOA being responsible for the exterior, but the owner being responsible for the roof.

That way, the HOA has control on 'appearance', the exterior, while the owner is responsible for roof leaks and the damage from those leaks (which is a drawback to the HOA is the HOA is responsible for the roofs).

One of the things I was pointing out is, if you walk up to a "townhouse" and the electrical service and meters are all at one location, it cannot be a "townhouse" by the IRC's definition:

TOWNHOUSE. Asingle-family dwelling unit constructed in a group of three or more attached units in which each unit extends from foundation to roof and with open space on at least two sides.

DWELLING. Any building that contains one or two dwelling units used, intended, or designed to be built, used, rented, leased, let or hired out to be occupied, or that are occupied for living purposes.

R101.2 Scope. The provisions of the International Residential Code for One- and Two-family Dwellings shall apply to the construction, alteration, movement, enlargement, replacement, repair, equipment, use and occupancy, location, removal and demolition of detached one- and two-family dwellings and townhouses not more than three stories above-grade in height with a separate means of egress and their accessory structures.

Yes, their terminology is somewhat inconsistent throughout the code and the definitions, but, I believe that is reads what its intent is.

From the Commentary:

- DWELLING. Any building that contains one or two dwelling units used, intended, or designed to be built, used, rented, leased, let or hired out to be occupied, or that are occupied for living purposes.
- - (Commentary) A dwelling is a building that contains either one or two dwelling units. The purpose of a dwelling is occupation for living purposes, regardless of the manner of owner- ship. Single-family houses and duplexes fall under the definition of dwelling. See also .Dwelling Unit.

- [b] DWELLING UNIT. A single unit providing complete independent living facilities for one or more persons, including permanent provisions for living, sleeping, eating, cooking and sanitation.
- - (Commentary) The specific purpose of a dwelling unit is to provide the essential amenities necessary for complete and independent facilities. Commonly, dwelling units are thought of as single-family houses or individual living units in duplexes or townhouses.

ECJ:

Honestly son, how do you ever get in and out of your own damned house with all of these extraneous thoughts floating around in your head? I can just picture you standing on your front porch pondering, "Am I on the porch, or is this a stoop, a landing, or a tread? And how much of each of these could it be? Or which of these is it? Is it any of these, or is it something else entirely? How ill I know. What if it is not in my code book or Jaguar owner's manual?"

As you continue along that line and that first cartoon balloon floats upward it encounters the soffit above you. But, is it a soffit, a modified eaves, an exterior ceiling, or a horizontal siding section? The sweat begins to form on your upper lip and your forehead is getting damp. Your hand twitches to grab for the pertinent reference volume, but it's not there.

Balloon two begins to drift out around the fascia and upward for an overview of the entire house. Now the veritable number of definitions, examples, scenarios, et al. begins to grow exponentially . . . HOLY COW!

It's all too much for you and you enter that state of mind where all things meld. A sub-atomic scenario where things do not really exist, but only have the probability of existence. Quantum soup for the Flahidian. It will cure anything. Even condolusions.

Aaron