Thread: Paint in Panel

Builder not to happy with me today.(See HVAC also)
Electrician came up from other unit. Says he will clean it up. Is that ok?
No can do!

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Let the arguing begin.

The NEC code (as taken from the IRC) states in E3304.6 Integrity of electrical equipment.
Internal parts of electrical equipment, including bus bars, wiring terminals, insulators and other surfaces, shall not be damaged or contaminated by foreign materials such as paint, plaster, cleaners or abrasives, and corrosive residues. There shall not be any damaged parts that might adversely affect safe operation or mechanical strength of the equipment such as parts that are broken; bent; cut; deteriorated by corrosion, chemical action, or overheating. Foreign debris shall be removed from equipment.

I read that to say it would need to to be replaced since it states no cleaners can be used.

Dick W. says he can clean them out without replacing the panel.

Sorry Dick, but the electricians around here are too lazy to do so. All of them we dealt with recommend replacement of the panel. I think the pay is better also.

Yeah, I know its not good for the poor ole seller, but you've got to remember myself and my client didn't spray the paint in the panel either.

If the builder wants to be unhappy with anybody, it should be the dumbass with the runaway sprayer. As for whether or not cleaning the panel is considered OK, maybe you should make a call to the panel box manufacturer and get their take whether or not cleaning the interior is acceptable.

There is not a code inspector in my area that would say that panel needs to be replaced. Since this is a new installation they have the final say and unless you are a licensed electrcian you have no valid opinion in their eyes. I have heard "Who are you?" more than once. I get a lot more repect being a licensed electrcian, plumber , and mechancial contractor than I did when they thought I was just a home inspector. Clean the panel up properly and there is no problem.

No where in the code quote below does it say that a panel can not be cleaned or repaired. As a matter of fact it says "Foreign debris shall be removed from equipment."

CODE QUOTE:
Internal parts of electrical equipment, including bus bars, wiring terminals, insulators and other surfaces, shall not be damaged or contaminated by foreign materials such as paint, plaster, cleaners or abrasives, and corrosive residues. There shall not be any damaged parts that might adversely affect safe operation or mechanical strength of the equipment such as parts that are broken; bent; cut; deteriorated by corrosion, chemical action, or overheating. Foreign debris shall be removed from equipment.
CODE QUOTE END


BTW...You guys can beat on me all you want...I don't reall care. But some of the post are fun to read...thanks for the chuckles...

Dick,

You had stated in a previous thread that if they gave you 400 bucks and two hours, you could clean it good as new.

You never answered the question from the last thread months ago which is:

"What would you use to clean that panel with?"

Just wondering.

Goop and a rag....

Dick said: "There is not a code inspector in my area that would say that panel needs to be replaced. Since this is a new installation they have the final say"

That is the way *IT USED TO BE* in South Florida, then several of us private inspectors began asking questions about that, and, over a period of about 3-5 years, the opinions changed from 'it's okay as it is', to 'clean it up', to 'the subcontractors need to be protecting them better, replace it, it will not happen many more times', and, know what, the builders where all over the sub contractor to protect the panels, recessed lights, a/c boots, EVERYTHING started getting protected.

Yeah, make them change out a couple of panels and you can bet that the electrician MADE DANG SURE they protected their panels, and that they would report removed protective covers to the builder so THEY (the electrical contractor) *did not* have to cover the cost of replacing the panels, the painter or whomever did. THEY paid once or twice and THEY learned quickly that you either: a) leave the protective cover in place, of, b) if the protective cover is not there, make sure to cover it anyway with SOMETHING, a drop cloth, SOMETHING to keep the paint out of it.

"and unless you are a licensed electrcian you have no valid opinion in their eyes."

That used to be the opinion down there, but that changed when they realized we were not out to find what they missed, but to 'help them' and learn from them. I bet that would work in other places too.

"I have heard "Who are you?" more than once. I get a lot more repect being a licensed electrcian, plumber , and mechancial contractor than I did when they thought I was just a home inspector."

We also got a lot more respect when they found out that we were licensed and certified inspectors, as many of us were.

"Clean the panel up properly and there is no problem."

The problem, as Tim brought back up, is that YOU *say* YOU can clean a panel, yet have not told us *HOW* you would do it and not violate the NEC.

AS A LICENSED electrical contractor, what you say holds less and less weight with us when you continue to say '*I* can violate the code by doing such-and-such, but that's okay' but then try to tell US that we are wrong.

"No where in the code quote below does it say that a panel can not be cleaned or repaired. As a matter of fact it says "Foreign debris shall be removed from equipment." "

I will bold it for you. It does not say "the panel cannot be cleaned" it just says HOW NOT TO DO IT.

CODE QUOTE:
Internal parts of electrical equipment, including bus bars, wiring terminals, insulators and other surfaces, shall not be damaged or contaminated by foreign materials such as paint, plaster, cleaners or abrasives, and corrosive residues. There shall not be any damaged parts that might adversely affect safe operation or mechanical strength of the equipment such as parts that are broken; bent; cut; deteriorated by corrosion, chemical action, or overheating. Foreign debris shall be removed from equipment.
CODE QUOTE END

Now, we are all ears waiting for you to tell us HOW you would clean the panel and NOT violate the code, you are NOT allowed to use "cleaners or abrasives" (unless they are listed for that use), I have never found any cleaners or abrasives listed for use for cleaning an electrical panel, maybe you have?

The product is called "Groomer's Goop". It is not UL listed but it does a good job to remove latex paint. I didn't read your response... I saw it was you so what waste my time!

[QUOTE=I saw it was you so what waste my time! [/QUOTE]

Man what a cheep way out.

I googled "Groomer's Goop" as Dick mentioned to see what it was as I've never heard of it. Goop yeah. Groomer's goop, NO.

It is a pet grooming product for cleaning pets.

Dick, I would think someone as yourself would pull out a more professional product for use other than a pet cleaner.

I was always taught to read the label on everything. No where on that product I bet does it state to use as a paint remover or more important in a electrical panel.

Why not just blast off the paint, say with some kitty litter?

Rick

It is very mild and does a good job...try it before you trash a good panel. Let us know how your test goes...

Never tried kitty litter for panel cleaning...don't see how that could work..WD-40 does a good job though but it does get all the metal all slick and stuff...is that damage?

Originally Posted by dick whitfield

WD-40 does a good job though but it does get all the metal all slick and stuff...is that damage?

You tell us.

CODE QUOTE:
Internal parts of electrical equipment, including bus bars, wiring terminals, insulators and other surfaces, shall not be damaged or contaminated by foreign materials such as paint, plaster, cleaners or abrasives, and corrosive residues. There shall not be any damaged parts that might adversely affect safe operation or mechanical strength of the equipment such as parts that are broken; bent; cut; deteriorated by corrosion, chemical action, or overheating. Foreign debris shall be removed from equipment.
CODE QUOTE END

WD-40 is a cleaner/solvent/lubricant which leaves a residue behind, it therefore leaves "contamination" and "foreign debris" behind.

After WD-40 dries, it attracts dust quicker than a mini-blind. Not great for the inside of a panel.

It is great for fishing though. Spray a little on your lure and the fish go nuts for its. Especially sand-bass.

Rick

Here’s the code quote in question….

"Internal parts of electrical equipment, including bus bars, wiring terminals, insulators and other surfaces, shall not be damaged or contaminated by foreign materials such as paint, plaster, cleaners or abrasives, and corrosive residues. There shall not be any damaged parts that might adversely affect safe operation or mechanical strength of the equipment such as parts that are broken; bent; cut; deteriorated by corrosion, chemical action, or overheating. Foreign debris shall be removed from equipment."

OK,

For the sake of clarity (as well as argument), let’s parse the above code language and distill it down to its most basic and salient point as it pertains to the matter at hand.

"Internal parts of electrical equipment…shall not be damaged or contaminated by…cleaners or abrasives…"

Now wipe your brow and lets move on,

Does the above say that one shall not use "cleaners or abrasives" on electrical equipment or does it merely say that the electrical equipment shall not be "damaged" or "contaminated" by same? Does that distintion even matter?

If you do happen to use a cleaner or abrasive during an attempt to remove "foreign debris" from electrical equipment then the trick is to use something that does not damage the electrical equipment being cleaned and to make sure that nothing is left behind after the cleaning proces that can be construed as "foreign debris".

I have no comment on Dick Whitfieild's particular method of using "Groomers goop" since I have no personal experience concerning that particular product or how it works.

Perhaps Dick Whitfield or Martha Stuart knows something about how to successfully remove lipstick from my collar and paint from the interior of my electrical service equipment that I have not heard of? Neither is beyond the realm of possibilities I might add.

While entirely possible, it remains news to me and I will continue to rely on my visual inspection + professional judement concerning electrical panels I encounter to determine if they are adequate for the purpose.

A recent phone call:

Hello, my name is Joe NEC from the NFPA,how may I help you?

Trician: I am a qualerfied electrician and and I was wonderin if I could use "Groomers Goop", it's a pet gromin product don'tcha know, to clean the inside of an electrical panel that was painted?

Joe: Yea, sure, we use it here all the time. We clean everything with it! My wife is shinin up the tires on the old Chrysler as we speak!

Trician: It doesn't violate the NEC?

Joe: The Chrysler?

Trician: No, using Groomers Goop to clean paint off a panel!

Joe: Shoot, who reads the NEC anyway! Once the cover is on, nobody will know! Anything else? I have to go wax my dog!

Phillip said "Does the above say that one shall not use "cleaners or abrasives" on electrical equipment or does it merely say that the electrical equipment shall not be "damaged" or "contaminated" by same? Does that distintion even matter?"

Yes, it does matter (but you knew that).

I know of no abrasive which does not "damage", even to a very minor degree, a surface it is rubbed on.

Regarding cleaners, the only "cleaner" I know of which does not leave a residue (but I swear it has when I've used it) is 'brake cleaner'. I'm not sure that spraying brake cleaner on the internal parts of an electrical panel is the same as spraying it on brake parts. I must admit, though, that when I used brake cleaner, I never looked to see it is was listed for use on electrical parts.

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

Phillip said "Does the above say that one shall not use "cleaners or abrasives" on electrical equipment or does it merely say that the electrical equipment shall not be "damaged" or "contaminated" by same? Does that distinction even matter?"

Yes, it does matter (but you knew that).

I know of no abrasive which does not "damage", even to a very minor degree, a surface it is rubbed on.

Regarding cleaners, the only "cleaner" I know of which does not leave a residue (but I swear it has when I've used it) is 'brake cleaner'. I'm not sure that spraying brake cleaner on the internal parts of an electrical panel is the same as spraying it on brake parts. I must admit, though, that when I used brake cleaner, I never looked to see it is was listed for use on electrical parts.

BrakeKleen would remove the paint, however, the removed paint would now be debris which would have to be removed. BrakeKleen is also used in dry cleaning, or was.

According to the can, break cleaner is an extra strength cleaning formula designed specifically to remove brake fluid, grease, oil, and other contamination from all types of brake assemblies.

Didn't see anything on there about electric or paint.

I think it must be some type of an abrasive. Use it on your hands and you will know what I mean!

In any event, the purpose of the code is not to allow any foreign materials in the panel. All that should be there is wires and breakers.

Jerry P,

Brake cleaner? Oh please…There is no different than Dick W’s generic brand of "pseudo science" using some kind of "goop".

You of all people know better than that!

Originally Posted by Phillip Stojanik

Jerry P,

Brake cleaner? Oh please…There is no different than Dick W’s generic brand of "pseudo science" using some kind of "goop".

You of all people know better than that!

Phillip,

I know ... that's why I said "Regarding cleaners, the only "cleaner" I know of which does not leave a residue ... ", meaning "it ain't supposed to leave a residue, which means it's not leaving a "contaminate" behind, then, however, I added "I'm not sure that spraying brake cleaner on the internal parts of an electrical panel is the same as spraying it on brake parts. I must admit, though, that when I used brake cleaner, I never looked to see it is was listed for use on electrical parts." for the reason you stated - Yeah, I know it's not allowed any more than Grandpa Gumby's Groomin' Goop.

What if you used your finger nail and went really gentle like???

It is not a cleaner or an abrasive.

It would take you longer that two hours and cost you more than 400 bucks while waiting for your nails to grow back to continue the cleaning.

Paint would be difficult, but drywall texture would come out with water and a sponge. Would that be allowable? I would think so, but I'm not sure. Best to shut the power off before sponging down the panel.

Phillip,

That was the best instance of arguing both sides of an issue I have ever seen. It did make me wonder how many panels I may have inspected that Martha Stewart or Dick have cleaned and I didn't know it.

I wonder if anyone has a feel for the cost comparisons of carefully cleaning a panel versus replacing one? I mean cost to the electrician via time to clean and time to swap out.

Thom says it all.....

I'm sure he has inspected panels that have been cleaned and he could not tell. Myself or another ELECTRICIAN s must have done a good job.

I am stressing this so new HI do not get the idea that this subject is not black and white. You need to use your experience to determine what is a problem and what can be cleaned up.

You guys can laugh all you want...I know what is practical and if I am ever called to do repairs on one of your inspections that call out a painted panel.....you will loose the arguement. I guarantee it. Been there three times in the last year with other rookie HI.

So far nobody has quoted a situation where a panel was replaced due to piant. Does any of the posters in this thread have an actual example with their own experiience or are the post all mouth based on what someone else has told them?

Originally Posted by Tim Moreira

What if you used your finger nail and went really gentle like???

It is not a cleaner or an abrasive.

Well, you are using it to 'abrade' or scrape off the paint (which is what 'abrasives' do).

Yesterday (Sat, 4/28) I was doing the final connections on a pool panel I installed in a new pool house. This is a $200k pool/landscape project.

The painter was in the pool house and while rolling she got some paint on the tips of the service panel buss bars. I am only doing the wiring on the pool equipment so the service panel was the responsibility of the builder's electrician whom I have never met.

The painter was nice Latino lady who spoke English better than I spoke Spanish but barely. She showed me what she done and I tried to tell her that was not my panel but she did not understand.

I had an opportunity to be a HI or an electrician since the problem was not mine. I chose to be an electrician and clean up the mess. The other electrician will never know what happened.

If I had been in my HI mode, I would have informed the owner of the property that this panel had been ruined by paint contamination. He was in the yard a few feet away.

What would you experts/heroes have done?

Yo pienso que le tenga dito para ir hablar con el dueno de la propriedade i lo esplica que hai aconteciendo. Pero no es mi responsabilidade i se ela quiere, yo la puedo ajudar por un pequeno favor.

Like I said...she was a nice lady who had more smarts than me in the languages...i have no idea as to what you said...I hope it was nice..

"You guys can laugh all you want...I know what is practical and if I am ever called to do repairs on one of your inspections that call out a painted panel.....you will loose the arguement. I guarantee it. Been there three times in the last year with other rookie HI."

Dick, I hope your cleaning is better than your guarantee, *I* *HAVE* *HAD* *PANELS* *REPLACED* due to paint and drywall overspray.

While I do not recall the exact number, in one development alone, there were about 26 which were replaced because I called out one. The chief electrical official in the county agreed that that one should be replaced, and then went out to look at the other which had been installed in the other townhouses I had not inspected, and he made them replace them all.

"So far nobody has quoted a situation where a panel was replaced due to piant."

Read back up a few posts, they are there.

"Does any of the posters in this thread have an actual example with their own experiience or are the post all mouth based on what someone else has told them?"\

Read above.

I LOVE electricians like you, because you (they) fall so hard when you (they) are wrong.

I think it was nice.. ... I'm limited in Spanish also.... It sounded good........
Out of curiosity, do you pull the meter prior to cleaning the panels?

Proof that Flordia needs to license HI with no grandfathering....

But to carry on...if the electricial contractor did not clean up the panels you speak of then they are idiots. You found the work of a supervisor that did not follow-up ...not the work of trades people. But it did allow you to make this post.

I have never seen a panel in a sprayed house that did not have some paint in the panel.

Thanks for NOT calling me what other folks are thinking

I think this thread was started on what is seen during new construction so the cleaning is done before the power is cut on to the house. I have removed concrete, drywall mud, and paint from panels. I have replaced interiors due to damage from numerous and usually unknown sources.

The bottom line is that some things can be fixed and some problems need a replacement. If you are not qualified then refer to someone who is. If you are not quailfied do not specify a repair as you will most likely be WRONG..(as Ron White says)

Originally Posted by dick whitfield

If you are not qualified then refer to someone who is. If you are not quailfied do not specify a repair as you will most likely be WRONG..(as Ron White says)

*I* am "qualified", as are many other here.

YES, THE INNERDS SHOULD BE CLEAN AND IN THE SESMIC AREAS OF THE COUNTRY, CA.NEV. UT. ARIZ., THESE ARE THE STATES I'VE BEEN SUBJECTED TO AS A COMMERCIAL SUPREINTENDENT,.. THE PANELS NEED TO BE CLEANED WITH A MAGNET, TO PREVENT THE METAL SHAVINGS FROM COMING IN CONTACT WITH THE BUS BARS, .... KABOOM!!

I defer to Randy.......new information.

Welcome.... never used a magnet but it sound like a good idea..

As Jerry said, I know of at least 15 panels that were changed because of one of my inspections. It was a development and the painter painted every panel in the 15 homes that were under construction at the time. The builder charged the painter for the panel replacements.

The builder thanked me for catching it.

What you fail to realize Dick, is that the paint shouldn't be there. As Jerry also said above, if you make the builders aware of a problem, it gets corrected before it happens again.

I just got through consulting for a builder because he was upset, initially, about me writing up roof decking that wasn't spaced properly. I went out to a site and got on the roof and actually showed his crew how to space out the decking as well as using a chalk line for nailing.

Although it may be more time consuming to do it the way I showed him, it was exactly the way the APA tells you to do it. I told him that if you do it this way a few times, your crews will get used to it and when the local inspector comes out, after a few times he will know that you are doing it right. In the long run, it will save you time and money.

When individuals like yourself come out and pretend to be "heroes" by doing a repairs that is not allowed by the manufacturer, you are doing nothing more that allowing the problem to continue.

As for rookies, Jerry will, if you asked him, provide his resume'. I have been doing home inspections since 1989.

I have e mailed three panel manufacturers posing the question regarding paint in the panel. I even included the "groomers goop" repair method. I will post their response.

From Square D:

Good Afternoon, Mr. Van De Ven,

Sorry, but the link you provided would not open a web page. I was able to locate
www.inspectionnews.net, but found nothing discussing this subject.

If any contaminant has entered the panel that cannot be removed by simply
vacuuming or wiping with a clean lint-free cloth, then we would recommend
replacing the interior of the panel. If paint, or some other contaminant, has
left labeling that is affixed to the panel unreadable, then we would recommend
replacing the complete panel. We comment in our current design of panel:
"Allowing petroleum based paint, solvents or spray to contact the non-metallic
parts of this product may adversely affect user safety and impair reliability".
This is due to the chemical reaction of the petroleum base paint or solvent to
the insulating bases used in the panel.

I am not familiar with the "Groomers Goop". However, our stance would remain the
same as stated above. If a consumer were to utilize this pet grooming product,
it would be without the Square D Company's consent or approval.

I hope that this will help with your issues. Please let me know if you would
need anything further.

Regards,
Rick Snapp
Product Technical Support Group
Square D Company - Lexington Plant
E-Mail: rick.snapp@us.schneider-electric.com

"If any contaminant has entered the panel that cannot be removed by simply vacuuming or wiping with a clean lint-free cloth, then we would recommend replacing the interior of the panel."

Dick,

And your response to that authoritative source is?

Not only is it limiting the cleaning to "simply vacuuming" (no touchee no nothing, udderstan? ), IF you are going to touch it, even with a "clean ... cloth", that "clean ... cloth" must also be "lint-free".

Now, I really do not think that vacuuming will remove paint overspray, nor will a "wiping" - note, this does not say 'scrubbing', it says 'wiping' - with a "clean lint-free cloth".

From Eaton (Cutler Hammer):

From : <trc@eaton.com>
Sent : Tuesday, May 1, 2007 10:51 AM
To : <ev@magnuminspections.com>
CC : <trc@eaton.com>
Subject : RE: Technical Product Question



Eric,
I submitted this inquiry to our design engineers and quality engineers
at our manufacturing facility and this is their response.

"As I read down through the link to www.inspectionnews.net I found a
response from Square D (inserted below) that I found to sum it up very
well. While our installation instructions do not offer any comments as
their's appear to, we agree with the fact that if the interior is
contaminated, it should be replaced and if the labeling is rendered
unreadable then the entire loadcenter may need to be replaced. Bottom
line is that the property owner needs to hold the people's feet to the
fire that are responsible for the "overspray".

Thanks for doing that Eric.

Like I said.." You guy's are a hoot!" And by the way...some of you you need to get a life! This is not that important!

Whoever went to the trouble to contact a manufacture is one dumb puppy in my opinion. What did you think they were going to say? Paint in a panel is ok? Get out of the ivory tower and get in the real world.

One time I saw a UF cable buried 21" deep and a NM cable stapled 14" from a box. Guess what I did?

Originally Posted by dick whitfield

Like I said.." You guy's are a hoot!" And by the way...some of you you need to get a life! This is not that important!

Whoever went to the trouble to contact a manufacture is one dumb puppy in my opinion. What did you think they were going to say? Paint in a panel is ok? Get out of the ivory tower and get in the real world.

One time I saw a UF cable buried 21" deep and a NM cable stapled 14" from a box. Guess what I did?

I figured you would have something "intelligent" to say as a comeback. I contacted the manufactures to get a definitive answer and, I have quite a full life. There is an old adage about those that have the gold make the rules. In this case, the manufacturer has the gold, they make the rules. If you fail to follow them and something happens, you will be "SOL".

It is nice to know that you routinely break the rules of the NEC and the manufacturers. I wonder if a copy of this thread were forwarded to the licensing board in your state, assuming you actually have a license, what their take would be on it. I would also like to know what your clients would think about your work ethic(s).

I have seen many a job with workmanship like yours. I assure you, at my home, you wouldn't get paid a dime until the work was done properly.

I wonder if you are really as dense as you appear or you just like to cause controversy. I would guess, the former.

This will be my last post to you as it is quite apparent, you have made up your mind that I am wrong, Square D is wrong, Cutler Hammer is wrong, and you are right. Maybe you should give Mike Holt a call and tell him he is wrong as well.

For other inspectors, I stand by my original recommendation to replace the panel. I have provided documentation from manufacturers of panels to back up my decision as well as quotes from the NEC.
What each of you do is your own decision.

Well said Eric,

I think more folks are behind you on this thread.

I for one thank you for taking the time to contact them for their official response. Their response has been copied to my files for future reference.

I for one can not understand how any licensed electrician could decide on their own to abandon the NEC codes and the manufacturer's instructions and then decide on their own to make up their own rules.

This profession is filled with enough liability without disregarding established national codes and manufacturer's instructions.

I guess some folks wont be happy until they are sued for their lack of better judgement.

NC Home Inspectors License 2105
NC Electrical Contractors License 7454-L
NC Plumbing Contractors License 12376
NC Heating Contractors License 12376


That you Dick?

From what I've seen on our vacations to NC each year, I think I know where Dick must work, in fact, I'm sure I've seen some of his work.

I do believe that Dick and Tony M. would get along super fine.

Eric,

Thanks for contacting them.

When the reply from the other manufacturer comes in, please post it too.

Thanks,

Good on ya', Eric.