Printable View
OK...Late (late) at night and looking for some clarity on whether it is acceptable (modern installation) to have the disconnect means for the dishwasher to be outside at the service equipment panel.
The specific case I'm referencing is not a cord-and-plug installation and there's no switch at the counter backsplash, under the sink, etc.
In trying to interpret 422.32 and the exception allowed by 422.34 (C), I can't figure it out.
Help...Jerry, et.al.
Thx,
Dave
422.32 Disconnecting Means for Motor-Driven Appliance.
If a switch or circuit breaker serves as the disconnecting means for a permanently connected motor-driven appliance of more than 1/8 hp, it shall be located within sight from the motor controller and shall comply with Part IX of Article 430.
Exception: If a motor-driven appliance of more than 1/8 hp is provided with a unit switch that complies with 422.34(A), (B), (C), or (D), the switch or circuit breaker serving as the other disconnecting means shall be permitted to be out of sight from the motor controller.
422.34 Unit Switch(es) as Disconnecting Means.
A unit switch(es) with a marked-off position that is a part of an appliance and disconnects all ungrounded conductors shall be permitted as the disconnecting means required by this article where other means for disconnection are provided in occupancies specified in 422.34(A) through (D).
(C) One-Family Dwellings. In one-family dwellings, the service disconnecting means shall be permitted to be the other disconnecting
means.
The way I read this is thusly: The dishwasher with the proper type of unit switch need not have an additional disconnect within sight of the motor controller. The service disconnect located remotely can serve as the other required disconnecting means. Or, the dishwasher already has a built-in unit switch. The unit can be energized using a cord-and-plug connection behind the unit where it is built into the base cabinet recess. The service disconnecting means will then serve as an additional disconnect.
If you are asking if this means that the service disconnect can serve as the sole means of disconnecting the appliance the answer is no.
Aaron
.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Hahn
Dave,
I am understanding you to say that the dishwasher is NOT cord-and-plug connected (that it is permanently wired) and are asking if the breaker in the panel, which happens to be outside (and is part of the service equipment - but that part does not matter), can be used as the disconnecting means for the dishwasher.
If I understood you correctly, then, yes, provided there is a proper lockout device at the circuit breaker at that panel.
I'm seeing a lot more dishwashers that are being cord and plug connected, which to me makes a sense. If it needed servicing, as long as the cord was say, SO type, it would provide protection from physical damage better than NM type, plus it bends a lot easier, and the service tech would know that it was de-energized just by "unplugging" it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shannon Guinn
Shannon,
The better cord would be an approved appliance cord and plug set with a molded on plug and stripped back pigtails on the other end for connection to the dishwasher. Same appliance cord and plug set you would find on a food waster grinder (garbage disposer).
Provides good protection from physical damage, is quite flexible, the plug is molded on, and is UL listed for the use as a appliance cord and plug set.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Peck
And yet, no manufacturer's that I know of offer this "convenience". Perhaps I should make up a bunch in my spare time. Wonder if I would need a UL listing for that?:D
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shannon Guinn
Here are some cords ( JMF Appliance Cords ), the manufacturers of the appliances offer the choice of being permanently wired or cord and plug connected.
I have inspected several houses in a neighborhood that have a switch at the countertop, (next to the food waste dispenser) for the dishwasher.???
The dishwasher is connected via a service cord.
I was told this was the Builder's idea.???
In one house there was celophane tape on the switch.
No one around here is asking for anything other than direct wired dishwashers.
Nothing to do except put the fuzz in and out of all of your belly buttons boys?
aj
"service cord", as in "cord and plug connected"?Quote:
Originally Posted by RANDY NICHOLAS
No problem.
Actually, kinda nice to have a disconnect switch up there. I used to think differently, but some here put forth a convincing argument which went like this: Turning that switch off when the dishwasher is not in use prevents kids from accidentally starting the dishwasher.
Seemed real silly to me at the time, then we had that case where the kid climbed into the dishwasher and was killed. Now it makes perfect sense.
Not required, but it makes perfect sense.
What, you couldn't find your cave? :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by adkjac
See that snow over there, I saw you come out of it, right there where the trail of yellow snow is ... see it ... ?
Jer... buddy... do you act like such a baby when you testify in court...?
waa waa waaa
call your mommy dude
love yaa really... aj
JP,
Service cord, yes, ul rated Appliance cord , as on the disposal.
Safety? yes.
The new owner needs to know it is switched (as the tape residue on the switch plate).
Thanks all (most)..
Could not tell if it was or wasn't hardwired vs. cord-and-plug, as there was no visible wiring, and therefore assumed (rightly or wrongly) that it was hard-wired behind the unit.
There was no "unit switch" (never seen a DW with one).
There was no lock-out at the breaker in the panel.
Now leaving me confused between A.D. Millers' "no" and Jerrys' "yes" (absent the lockout part).
Dear adkjac:
My mother always told me, if you've got nothing good to say....
If you are not sure, and there is no lock out, all you have to do is add it to the electrical list (there *is always* an electrical list of repairs) and state "Have electrical contractor verify that the dishwasher is cord and plug connected while they are on-site for other electrical repairs. If not cord and plug connected, install a proper disconnect for the dishwasher."
That way, you are saying "do it while already on-site", and, "if not this, do this", and leaving the "do this" up to the electrical contractor as to "how" they "do this".
This is a code question and not part of the standards of practice for home inspectors, we don't have to know this.
You should visit a code forum. This is for home inspectors.
Aw, come on Jeff. Nobody wins in a pizzing contest. Even innocent bystanders get wet.
Jeff,Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Remas
One a home inspector sees all the time and needs to know about.
Your other question is not one the home inspector sees, and if they do see it under the condition you stated (a phase inspection) the plan should be there and the requirements should be stated on the plan.
*MANY* "code questions are asked and discussed here.
The ones you are asking have no relationship to home inspections.
Try continuing to be helpful with your answers instead of telling someone they pi$$ed you off because they did not want to play your game.
OK, I made my point. My apologies to those of you who may have been offended by me. Now I have to get back to expedia.com to book a flight to Perfect World although they tell me the place does not exist.
Jerry, how did you get your ticket?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Peck
Every time I get a good idea, it's taken!:rolleyes:
Through that weird red hatted gnome, why?Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Remas
Dear adkjac (and now Jeff):
My mother always told me, if you've got nothing good to say....
422.34 permits a unit switch in the appliance as a disconnecting means when as in 422.34(C), the service means is the other disconnecting means. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Hahn
I asked my commonwealth electric inspector about this... he said direct wired is ok with him. Also said he has seen corded installs.
I asked my building codes inspector about the same. He said he does not ask for disconnects.
I personally do install and also change out dishwashers. I have recently looked into picking up some official breaker lockouts. I have always used tape over the breaker if others are at the job. I would never need to have a close by disconnect to work on any circuit in a single family dwelling that is. I think making that code is fine and most likely a need for multifamily and large commercial work where others could turn energize a circuit.
So... residentially... single family...hey... it's any way works up this way and is allowed so far.... that said... ala Jerry... and the codes... I will soon have a set of lockouts in my electric job bag (to replace tape)... along with already having circuit tracers, testers, afci and gfci testers and analyzers...
aj
About a year ago I was looking at a dishwasher manual (new home) to verify if it had to be on a dedicated circuit. This dishwasher instructions said it had to be permanent wiring and not plug. This unit happened to be plugged in. It might be a good thing to check if it can be a plug or not.
This unit was plugged in a receptacle under the sink and was shared with the disposal. The dishwasher manual said dedicated circuit. My question is is it allowed (code) to have dishwasher and disposal plugged in same circuit (receptacle).
I don't recall the brand and would have to look through last years reports to find it so don't ask. :)
The lockout is supposed to be attached to the panel, not just added by a service tech while the work is performed.Quote:
Originally Posted by adkjac
I also hope that you know that the only recognized method of testing AFCIs is with the built-in test button on the breaker. The standard does not recognize the plug-in testers for AFCIs.
Mike,Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Schulz
Code-wise it is possible that sharing the circuit with the disposal would be OK. It would depend on the ampacities of the two devices. Neither could be more than 50% of the circuit capacity. However, there is the sticking point that the instructions call for a dedicated circuit and you would not be installing the DW in accordance with those. This would bring up the Code section that says things will be installed according to the instructions.
Personally, the way I used the DW and disposal neither were ever used at the same time effectively making it a dedicated circuit.
Jim Port... There are electricians running 14-3 from a double 15A breaker to dishwasher/disposals. That might have been what was run to the aforementioned circuit.
As to panel mounted lock outs, I have not found such a set up yet... point me....
aj
Quote:
Originally Posted by adkjac
I have also seen the outlets under the sink that are on different circuits. One for the disposal and one for the dishwasher
Hi, I am an Architect and we have a building official telling us that even though we have a cord and plug dishwasher that is plugged into an outlet in the cabinet next to it (same outlet as disposal) that we need a switched disconnect located next to the outlet that it is plugged into.
Isn't this a redundant disconnect. Our electrical consultant who did the drawings is out on Maternity leave and I am left to interpret this. Any help would be appreciated.
Is unplugging a dishwasher considered disconnecting it?