Stranded copper at neutral bar - InspectionNews

wayne soper · #1 (**permalink**) 06-19-2007, 07:22 PM

This is wrong correct, aside from the doubled, Srtanded is not allowed at the neutral bar is it?

Gunnar Alquist · #2 (**permalink**) 06-19-2007, 07:34 PM

Wayne,

It looks to me like that this is not stranded, but bundled ground wires at a single terminal. I believe that most manufacturers do not allow more than 3 conductors on a single terminal.

Chad Fabry · #3 (**permalink**) 06-19-2007, 07:54 PM

It's stranded. Sure, it's allowed.

James Duffin · #4 (**permalink**) 06-19-2007, 08:00 PM

As long as the terminal is rated for for the size and type of wire it should be ok.

Jerry Peck · #5 (**permalink**) 06-19-2007, 08:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gunnar Alquist

Wayne,

It looks to me like that this is not stranded, but bundled ground wires at a single terminal. I believe that most manufacturers do not allow more than 3 conductors on a single terminal.

I'm going with Gunnar, I doubt it's stranded.

Follow them down, they are jumbled up like that along the bottom behind the white conductors.

Those are separate grounding wires all jammed into one connector - not good.

Those larger terminal are typically rated for just one conductor, and, *IF* it was a real "stranded" conductor, then it would be okay.

Besides, stranded conductors of that size (#8-#2) only have are seven strands, and there are how many there? Stranded conductors of #1-#4/0 have 19 strands. That does not look like 'it was' a #1 or larger.

(Dang, another time I wish I could re-check the photo.)

I count 14 strands there, and one more not connected (just hanging loose) and one other one in with a white conductor.

Charles Smith · #6 (**permalink**) 06-19-2007, 08:32 PM

“Solid" wire is formed from a single strand of metal. "Stranded" wire is formed from multiple strands, wound together.

A 12 Gauge conductor has a diameter of 0.0810 and area in circular mills of 6,561, hence, the gauge determines the maximum allowable current for a circuit with a given gauge; multiple strands or one strand i.e. “solid”.

For a 12 gauge conductor the maximum current is 20 amps; which at 120 VAC equals 2400 watts maximum.

However, it looks like there are safety ground wires (bare copper) tied to the neutral bus bar. Was there a seperate "safety ground bus bar"?

The neutral bus bar should be bonded to the power company neutral to complete the current path.

Electricians are not supposed to terminate (mix) neutrals (current return path) and safety grounds. The ground bus bar is THE safety return for fault conditions. Fault conditions such as an open neutral at an appliance can set up a potential for return current on safety ground which in turn can pose a safety hazrd.

Yes, the neutral is bonded to the main service panel that is also bonded to an earth ground rod or UFER.

James Duffin · #7 (**permalink**) 06-19-2007, 08:41 PM

Welcome Charles.........good first post! You can learn a lot here....

Jim Luttrall · #8 (**permalink**) 06-19-2007, 08:51 PM

Typical lazy installation, they left several terminals empty (look at the reflection) on the bar closest to the breakers and crammed a bunch of stuff they ran out of room for in the large conductor terminal. I agree, that large terminal is full of individual conductors, not stranded.

Chad Fabry · #9 (**permalink**) 06-20-2007, 03:21 AM

Quote:

This is wrong correct, aside from the doubled, Srtanded is not allowed at the neutral bar is it?

From left to right on the lower bar:
First you have the bunch of improperly terminated grounds.
Then a double tapped ground/neutral.
Then the next two neutral wires are are stranded.
Then a bunch more bad wiring.

To answer your question, the stranded neutrals are allowed. There is a whole lot of of other bad wiring though.

wayne soper · #10 (**permalink**) 06-20-2007, 04:52 AM

sorry guys, bad pics! There are three or four circuits on the left side of the neutral bar that are stranded wire. I usually see only solid copper for a 15 or 20 amp circuit. Hard to see ion the photo.

Jerry Peck · #11 (**permalink**) 06-20-2007, 06:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chad Fabry

To answer your question, the stranded neutrals are allowed. There is a whole lot of of other bad wiring though.

Wayne,

I think Chad and some of us are saying the same thing (after the above).

Look to the very far left in your first photo, you will see stranded conductor in the large terminal on the neutral terminal bar - THAT is a "stranded" conductor, and, yes, it is allowed.

Then, the terminal you took a photo of with all the single conductors that most of us thought you were calling a 'stranded' conductor, but which are really single conductors, is not allowed.