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  1. #1
    Tom Rees's Avatar
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    Default Panel in bathroom?

    Inspected a house today that had the distribution panel in laundry room which also had a sink and toilet in it. Does this fit the code for not having panel in bathroom or is this not considered a bathroom since there is no bathtub or shower?

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    Default Re: Panel in bathroom?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Rees View Post
    Inspected a house today that had the distribution panel in laundry room which also had a sink and toilet in it. Does this fit the code for not having panel in bathroom or is this not considered a bathroom since there is no bathtub or shower?
    lavatory (sink) plus toilet = bathroom.

    Look up definition in NEC, IRC, or IBC.


  3. #3
    Kary Krismer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Panel in bathroom?

    First, wouldn't you need to know the code at the time the house was built?

    Second, assuming it is not allowed currently, I find it a bit strange that you cannot have a room with a panel, a sink and a toilet, but you can have a room with a panel, a sink and two large metal objects which are both well grounded, and one of which also uses water, both hot and cold. What would be the purpose of such a prohibition in one situation but not the other?


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    Default Re: Panel in bathroom?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kary Krismer View Post
    First, wouldn't you need to know the code at the time the house was built?
    No, not really.

    Just because, for a long time, it was presumed that common sense would prevail and panels would not be installed in bathrooms, then the code realized that this needed to be specifically addressed as being prohibited because it was being done ... does not make those installation prior to the code prohibiting the practice any safer.

    It is for this same reason that you (hopefully) write up receptacles which now require GFCI protection but did not require GFCI protection "way back then" as needing to have GFCI protection installed.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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    Default Re: Panel in bathroom?

    because a lavatory/basin/sink can be used to wash the body. When washing ones body, one tends to have parts of ones body both wet and naked. When washing ones body (parts) one may splash, extend ones wet, naked body part out away from one's primary postion and make contact with other things.Generally when one uses a toilet in the usual manner, some part of one's body is likewise naked and exposed. Fluids are often involved (waste, bowl water, etc.)Completing a circuit path between one's body and panel, as well as accessibility, working space, and dedicated equipment space are all potentially of issue.The presence of a basin/lavatory/sink PLUS one of the following (shower, tub, toilet) equals a bathroom.Laundry appliances are supposed to be grounded/bonded. Granted there are older installations out there but newer appliances are sold with listed instructions and warnings.For quite some time this has been expressly prohibited (exception, some very old "mobile homes").It doesn't matter when the home was built. HIs however do not do code inspections, therefore the vintage of the home is MOOT. Would ALWAYS list this as a hazard/defect in need of correction.


  6. #6
    Kary Krismer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Panel in bathroom?

    I don't think I've ever seen a panel in a bathroom, but I'm still having a hard time seeing how it's such an issue that it needs to be outright banned. You can be washing stuff in a laundry sink too. As to the toilet, I would assume that the body has an automatic circuit breaker if urine is the circuit path, but in any case if that's the concern you could simply have a rule that the panel cannot be within so many feet of a toilet or sink.

    And this is entirely different than not having a GFCI outlet in a kitchen of a house built in 1940. That is easily corrected.

    Oh, and I'm not questioning calling it out if it is against current code, I'm just questioning the need for the current code.


  7. #7
    Kary Krismer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Panel in bathroom?

    Quote Originally Posted by A.D. Miller View Post
    You are the epitome of the need for the current code.
    Explain again then how a sink in a laundry room is any less dangerous. Or how a panel 10' away from a toilet and sink, but in the same room as the toilet and sink, is any risk at all.

    If the explanation was that the humidity isn't good for circuit breakers, I could see that. But otherwise it just seems like a poorly drafted rule that allows other dangerous situations to exist (e.g. a panel within a certain distance of a laundry room sink).


  8. #8
    Kary Krismer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Panel in bathroom?

    BTW, my comment about the automated circuit breaker was in jest, but it did remind me of this story.

    Washington man killed by urinating on live power line following crash

    As I recall though, it turned out that the guy didn't die by urinating on a downed wire.


  9. #9
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    Default Re: Panel in bathroom?

    Quote Originally Posted by A.D. Miller View Post
    While many less-than-desirable activities and installations are not covered by the code, such as juggling razor blades with your tongue, ironing skillets filled with water, et al., this does not mean that the activities which are included in the code should be ignored. However, you are welcome to try any of the above if it suits you.
    So in other words, you admit that the code is written for no particular reason that you are aware of, or at least are willing to share. Thank you for that admission.

    Now if someone who would like to offer a helpful explanation would like to chime in, it would be appreciated.


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    Default Re: Panel in bathroom?

    KK,

    I don't think I'm the only one who is weary of your 2-month voyage into hijacking threads.

    As a realtor, you're not exactly worth the time to explain a thing to, especially if you cannot be bothered to search the threads here and at our archives, reference a code citation, or make up your own theories about what should and should not be addressed or why.

    If you cannot be bothered to read a question and answer on topic and UNDERSTAND what is written on someone else's topic thread, then why could you possibly be bothered to use your own time to search a board and read other strings? Why should we bother to enlighten you, if you cannot educate yourself on the topic?

    Code Making Panels have discussed such issues for years. Educate yourself if you are truly interested. In the mean time, the vast majority of us have dealt with ignorant, combative realtors such as your own comments here demonstrate.

    Realtors do themselves and their clients a disservice when they Opine so. Opinions are like anuses, most, if not all of us have them. Ignorance is not bliss; we OWE you NOTHING. You are responsible for yourself, your entitled and demanding attitude is unwarranted.

    You claimed last April you occasionally read from the board. I suggest you familiarize yourself with more of it, and the archives, and do some off-board reading as well.


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    Default Re: Panel in bathroom?

    TR,You have not described a laundry room, you have described a bathroom with laundry facilities.That should be abundantly clear.Obviously YOU are aware of the prohibition of a panel in the residential bathroom. Unfortunate your thread was derailed.Let us hope that the dryer is not a fuel fired one, and that if other than a condensing electric model, there is sufficient air flow. With newer requirements for the bathroom ventillation, and the significant amount of airflow removed from the home with a venting dryer (and surely not a fuel fired one!), that should be considered as well.


  12. #12
    Kary Krismer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Panel in bathroom?

    HGW, I'm just trying to learn, so I ask questions. I appreciate the inspectors here who actually give helpful answers. The more I learn here the less likely it is I'll get my client into a house with a serious inspection issue.

    But one thing that Tom should realize is that if I came across an inspector who pointed out something was a safety concern without being able to express the reason for that safety concern, I would not recommend that inspector again, and I would make disparaging comments about that inspector to the buyer's agent if I represented the seller. So in addition to calling this out as a safety issue, Tom had better be able to explain why that toilet and sink is any more of a concern to the buyer in their possible new home, than the water heater, washer dryer and sink were in the utility room of their old home. So in that regard I would not consider my activity in this particular thread to be a hijack as much as pointing out a need for more information to be given. If I have these questions it's likely that in Tom's situation two agents and a buyer and seller will also have the questions, and he should be able to answer those questions off the top of his head.


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    Post Re: Panel in bathroom?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kary Krismer View Post
    HGW, I'm just trying to learn, so I ask questions. I appreciate the inspectors here who actually give helpful answers. The more I learn here the less likely it is I'll get my client into a house with a serious inspection issue.

    But one thing that Tom should realize is that if I came across an inspector who pointed out something was a safety concern without being able to express the reason for that safety concern, I would not recommend that inspector again, and I would make disparaging comments about that inspector to the buyer's agent if I represented the seller. So in addition to calling this out as a safety issue, Tom had better be able to explain why that toilet and sink is any more of a concern to the buyer in their possible new home, than the water heater, washer dryer and sink were in the utility room of their old home. So in that regard I would not consider my activity in this particular thread to be a hijack as much as pointing out a need for more information to be given. If I have these questions it's likely that in Tom's situation two agents and a buyer and seller will also have the questions, and he should be able to answer those questions off the top of his head.

    Kary, your comments about defamation are disconcerting to say the least. Hopefully, you have an excellent attorney who can protect you from what is now a documented admission that you engage in defamation of character.

    In regard to your original question, I have several comments. First, it is irrelevant to compare one set of circumstances to another. The Code attempts to address areas of safety where lack of common sense has become a problem. The Code can not anticipate all circumstances that may develop due to conduct that arises out of poor workmanship, ignorance, stupidity, or the like. Second, any human who is not a candidate for a Darwin Award should understand that mixing water, a grounding source, and unlimited current is a recipe for disaster, regardless of whether it is "to Code" or not. Third, if you feel that you have discovered a short-coming in the Code, perhaps you should offer that input to the appropriate Code committee.

    Real estate agents that go around bad-mouthing home inspectors, mortgage brokers, and appraisers are simply looking for lawsuits. Evidence in the right hands can bring about a very cruel dose of reality.


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    Default Re: Panel in bathroom?

    Overcurrent protection (not just circuit breakers) other than supplementary, are not permitted in residential bathrooms.

    If you go back and read the earlier posts, you will see some of the reasons WHY.

    In the meantime do your own research on electrical theory, least resistance path to ground, electrocution forensic investigations, and equipment bonding.

    Now I'm interested to travel the www and investate the required premiums and coverages for RE professionals in KKs area. This board scores highly on search engines.

    Egad, KK is a NEW Realtor, riding on coattails of wife's career, after quitting his practice of LAW.

    An ex-attorney, new realtor, telling HIs what their job is, and using terms like "grandfather"!!

    What area of "law" did you practice? Corporate in-house work?!? Commercial Leasing? Tax law? Certainly not Real Estate.

    Frankly, the laziness/self-motivation failure to self-educate or do the least bit of research or reading before popping off about which you know NOTHING, now makes sense.

    What was that joke about 1,000 attorneys and 500 realtors at the bottom of Puget Sound.....a what start?

    Last edited by H.G. Watson, Sr.; 07-09-2010 at 10:50 AM.

  15. #15
    Kary Krismer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Panel in bathroom?

    Quote Originally Posted by Randy Aldering View Post
    Kary, your comments about defamation are disconcerting to say the least. Hopefully, you have an excellent attorney who can protect you from what is now a documented admission that you engage in defamation of character.
    I am an attorney, and pointing out that someone cannot explain something when that is part of their job is hardly defamation. Either they can do their job or they can't, and if they can't explain their position they can't do their job.

    Second, any human who is not a candidate for a Darwin Award should understand that mixing water, a grounding source, and unlimited current is a recipe for disaster, regardless of whether it is "to Code" or not.


    Which is precisely why I asked about washers, dryers and hot water tanks in the same utility room as a panel. Seemingly that should be called out in inspections too, even if it's not against code, because it's a safety concern, and probably a lot more so than a toilet.


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    Default Re: Panel in bathroom?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kary Krismer View Post
    HGW, I'm just trying to learn, so I ask questions. I appreciate the inspectors here who actually give helpful answers. The more I learn here the less likely it is I'll get my client into a house with a serious inspection issue.

    But one thing that Tom should realize is that if I came across an inspector who pointed out something was a safety concern without being able to express the reason for that safety concern, I would not recommend that inspector again, and I would make disparaging comments about that inspector to the buyer's agent if I represented the seller. So in addition to calling this out as a safety issue, Tom had better be able to explain why that toilet and sink is any more of a concern to the buyer in their possible new home, than the water heater, washer dryer and sink were in the utility room of their old home. So in that regard I would not consider my activity in this particular thread to be a hijack as much as pointing out a need for more information to be given. If I have these questions it's likely that in Tom's situation two agents and a buyer and seller will also have the questions, and he should be able to answer those questions off the top of his head.
    KK,

    The HI owes NOTHING to the realtor, be them buyers or sellers agent.
    This includes any explanations, report copies, or answers to any of the agents questions.

    Perhaps you should ask your wife a question or two.

    The HIs client is the only one to whom they have a duty to. The client has no obligation to share anything from their inspection report or their communications with their Home Inspector to their buyers agent or the sellers agent.

    As a buyer's agent you work for the potential buyer. Your statements prove you are unable to perform the illusive (imaginary) so-called buyer's agent function. AaaahHaaaah! See we all KNOW you work for the commission - and cannot truly be unconflicted uncompromised buyer's AGENTS. You are motivated (and apparently also your vindictiveness) by your SELLER/BUYER SPLIT-COMMISSION percentage of the settlement sales price greed. You retailate when the BUYER, your supposed client of INTEREST, SUCESSFULLY NEGOTIATES A LOWER PURCHASE PRICE or walks away from a purchase, DUE TO INFORMATION the seller gleaned from a Home Inspector, termite inspector, radon inspector, etc.

    The client can elect to accept or reject the report. If the purchase offer is contingent on their acceptance, they can simply choose to NOT ACCEPT IT, notify agents of same, and WITHDRAW their offer. Let the counteroffering negotiations begin.

    You being so "knew" to the realtor business, are still struggling with what is and is not appropriate for your own newly found occupation. While you learn about that, learn about related occupations. You haven't been "in the business" long enough to even have a CLUE, and you have NO right to be telling others how to do their work, especially in an area you have no experience, training, education, or acquired knowledge. Apparently you weren't so good at your former profession, or rather acting as your own attorney/advisor, have a fool for a client, with the statement you made above.

    Should a Seattle area HI discover you have been making such statements about him/her, expect your post above WILL come to haunt you, your brokerage, and your carrier.

    Start with the basics, the SOPs, and get a clue. Meanwhile, I expect your "rep" with the HIs in your area isn't being helped by your participation here. WE OWE YOU especially as a REALTOR, ex-attorney, NOTHING.


  17. #17
    Kary Krismer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Panel in bathroom?

    I guess when some inspectors get in over their heads they turn to wild inaccurate guesses (common on Internet forums) and insults. Rather pointless to debate such people so I'll decline to do so.

    Now if an inspector wants to answer my questions, I would be appreciative.


  18. #18
    Lou Romano's Avatar
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    Default Re: Panel in bathroom?

    This is really all the explaination required:

    NEC
    240.24 Location in or on Premises.

    (E) Not Located in Bathrooms.
    In dwelling units and
    guest rooms or guest suites of hotels and motels, overcurrent
    devices, other than supplementary overcurrent protection,

    shall not be located in bathrooms.

    It's against the law!



  19. #19
    Kary Krismer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Panel in bathroom?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lou Romano View Post
    This is really all the explaination required:

    NEC
    240.24 Location in or on Premises.

    (E) Not Located in Bathrooms.
    In dwelling units and
    guest rooms or guest suites of hotels and motels, overcurrent
    devices, other than supplementary overcurrent protection,

    shall not be located in bathrooms.

    It's against the law!
    Well at least you're courteous, but if you go back up and read I was not asking about bathrooms. I was asking about why a panel can be in a utility room that has a sink, washer/dryer and hot water heater, all of which involve water, and some of which are grounded.

    Also, to refresh, it was explained that being grandfathered didn't matter because this was a safety issue. So just that a code doesn't allow something in a bathroom, that doesn't mean that it wouldn't be a safety issue elsewhere.


  20. #20
    Lou Romano's Avatar
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    Default Re: Panel in bathroom?

    Kary Krismer;136743]Well at least you're courteous, but if you go back up and read I was not asking about bathrooms. I was asking about why a panel can be in a utility room that has a sink, washer/dryer and hot water heater, all of which involve water, and some of which are grounded.

    Also, to refresh, it was explained that being grandfathered didn't matter because this was a safety issue. So just that a code doesn't allow something in a bathroom, that doesn't mean that it wouldn't be a safety issue elsewhere.

    Condensation or humidity in a bathroom certainly is cause for alarm and although I haven't seen it mentioned I would think that methane gas is also an issue to be concerned about.

    But condensation or humidity is the one main ingredient you will find in a bathroom that you wont find in a utility room, garage or laundry room. At least not in ample enough amounts to make the whole room wet.

    I don't know about you but I like taking long steaming hot showers and when I come out the walls, floor, ceiling, mirror and vanity are very damp from condensation. Aside from the fact that this in itself would pose a danger to human life, it also will deteriorate the panel. It will corrode the busbar weakening all the connections between breakers and busbar, the connections at neutral and ground bar will suffer too and as a result you could have a dangerous situation outside of the bathroom as well as inside. A loose connection between breaker and busbar on a heavily loaded breaker, like an AC load can start to burn and sometimes even explode into flames, or sparks! I certainly wouldn't want to be in the bathroom naked and wet when that happened.

    Corroded connections at the neutral bar can cause damage to appliances and electronics on multi wire branch circuits. Corroded connections at the ground bar can cause unsafe situations such as shock hazards from energized metal parts of equipment.

    Does that answer your question?


  21. #21
    Kary Krismer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Panel in bathroom?

    Lou, that explanation, if it is actually the reason for the rule on bathrooms, would make a lot more sense than the nonsense being expressed by some here.

    Both a bathroom and a utility room would have many of the same shock risks, but most the extra humidity in a laundry room would be vented outside via the dryer vent. Also, since the bathroom rule isn't a proximity rule (e.g. no panel within X feet of a sink, shower or toilet), it would indicate that the concern was with something else in the room than those objects.

    On the other hand, just a sink and a toilet wouldn't contribute much to humidity, so that would indicate humidity isn't the reason for the rule.


  22. #22
    Lou Romano's Avatar
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    Default Re: Panel in bathroom?

    On the other hand, just a sink and a toilet wouldn't contribute much to humidity, so that would indicate humidity isn't the reason for the rule.
    Yes but if it has a toilet it becomes a bathroom and usually where there is a toilet there is a tub and a sink! They have to draw the line somewhere.


  23. #23
    Jerry Peck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Panel in bathroom?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kary Krismer View Post
    So in other words, you admit that the code is written for no particular reason that you are aware of, or at least are willing to share.

    For Mr. Know-Nothing here (but mainly for all the others here - and we have been over this before) ...

    Code do not change just willy-nilly because Billy Bob thought something might be a good idea, no, codes change as a result of injuries and deaths (for the most part) and to reduce the likelihood of injuries and death (for a lessor part, even though these changes are done as a result of related or associated injuries or deaths).

    When enough injuries or deaths happen, or something happens (like fires, which, by the way, cause injuries and death) then the code makers get together and ask all interested parties to submit changes, with supporting documentation and substantiation for the changes, proposing how to make the code better (i.e., how to make the electrical installations safer).

    Unlike real estate agents changing contracts to screw the buyer (which Mr. Know-Nothing as previously said he was - a real estate agent) and unlike lawyers how add wording to contracts and other document to screw people out of things (which he now says he is - a lawyer) codes do not change 'for no reason' - codes change to correct unsafe conditions ... which I thought I explained earlier, and which I though H. G. added to quite well.

    Maybe this will help Mr. Know-Nothing understand things better: Installing overcurrent devices in bathroom is not dis-allowed anywhere (although I believe it would be a very good idea to dis-allow them in bathrooms anywhere), the only bathrooms where overcurrent devices are not allowed to be installed are (underlining and bold are mine): "(E) Not Located in Bathrooms. In dwelling units and guest rooms or guest suites of hotels and motels, overcurrent devices, other than supplementary overcurrent protection, shall not be located in bathrooms."

    This is because the same types of activities are not expected to take place in bathrooms in other occupancies, thus those other bathrooms are not yet considered unsafe for the installation of overcurrent devices.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  24. #24
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    Default Re: Panel in bathroom?

    Stating the law with out insight is unsatisfactory. That is just saying "because I said so!" Though I agree that KK does not want to understand the reason.

    Here is a reason not to have panels in a residential bathroom. Have you ever seen a bathroom after some kids have used it? Kids (and some adults) have an amazing ability to get water everywhere. It's play time!
    In a laundry room (and non-residence) one is far less likely to be wet, naked and have water splashed up the walls (and panels).


  25. #25
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    Default Re: Panel in bathroom?

    Mr. Risley asks:
    How much methane gas would have to be in said bath/electrical to be worried when a breaker tripped and the room did a Hindenberg?

    Don't know if these people in the video report below would want to test your question. Check it out.

    rick

    Flaming faucets northwest of Denton | OPINION Blog | dallasnews.com


  26. #26
    Kary Krismer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Panel in bathroom?

    A D. Miller, get over yourself and ask yourself this: Why should I care what you think? You're obviously not very professional and you've not demonstrated even a minimal level of intelligence. Even dogs can follow rules, but that doesn't mean they understand them.

    As to the rest of you you're focusing too much on the bathroom. I'm trying to focus on the utility room which might have other items that also would best not be in proximity to a panel, and probably far worse than a toilet being near a panel.

    I'm not trying to support abolishing the rule on panels in bathrooms. Like I said, I don't even remember ever seeing one in a bathroom. But if the reason for the bathroom rule would also indicate the reason why there's not a rule pertaining to certain objects in utility rooms, then the bathroom rule becomes relevant.


  27. #27
    Rich Goeken's Avatar
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    Default Re: Panel in bathroom?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kary Krismer View Post
    HGW,.....I would not recommend that inspector again, and I would make disparaging comments about that inspector to the buyer's agent if I represented the seller....

    I don't know why you, as a Realtor, would be recommending anyone---not your place in the scheme of things. You sell, maybe do anything to get the commission (don't know). But as a buyer I would not accept your recommendation for a HI because of perceived conflict of interest, no matter how good that person is, or would I put any weight on your comments as construction and application of applicable codes that are not your field.


    So in addition to calling this out as a safety issue, Tom had better be able to explain why that toilet and sink is any more of a concern to the buyer in their possible new home, than the water heater, washer dryer and sink were in the utility room of their old home.
    .

    Excuse me, but who are you demanding an explanation? You have a lot to learn about construction and codes. You don't know how ridiculous you sound with your demands. Suggest that you come back with hat in hand, ask sensible questions, and absorb what is said before you start expounding a lack of knowledge. Otherwise, not your place in the scheme of things.


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    Default Re: Panel in bathroom?

    Personal Bankruptcy sole-practitioner bailed on occupation prior to 2005, jumped in to RE. Already claims to be "mentoring" at less than five-year mark. Spends five+ years trolling and posting numerous blogs and boards, (esp. since 2008) on every topic under the Sun, shows up here April, and starts spewing here. Not a practicing attorney AFAIK, since no information provided/posted on WA State Bar Assoc regarding Insurance, nor affiliation with an organized practice; Dept. of Revenue shows file closed and given up many years ago.Cintonesque debate about what "IS" is? "I am an Attorney" (no qualification, i.e. retired, suspended, given up the practice of law, etc.).P.S. The joke starts "What would you call...." and ends "A Good Start".


  29. #29
    Kary Krismer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Panel in bathroom?

    H G Watson, you're also wasting your time.

    For the others, I think I may have stumbled across a reason for the rule that makes some sense. A room that has a tub, shower or toilet is also very likely to have a lock, and therefore not always be accessible.

    I was once showing a house where the owner was outside gardening. My clients couldn't see the bathroom because it was locked. I asked the owner and he had accidentally locked the door from the wrong side. I opened it for him and my client.


  30. #30
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    Default Re: Panel in bathroom?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kary Krismer View Post
    A D. Miller, get over yourself and ask yourself this: Why should I care what you think? You're obviously not very professional and you've not demonstrated even a minimal level of intelligence. Even dogs can follow rules, but that doesn't mean they understand them.

    As to the rest of you you're focusing too much on the bathroom. I'm trying to focus on the utility room which might have other items that also would best not be in proximity to a panel, and probably far worse than a toilet being near a panel.

    I'm not trying to support abolishing the rule on panels in bathrooms. Like I said, I don't even remember ever seeing one in a bathroom. But if the reason for the bathroom rule would also indicate the reason why there's not a rule pertaining to certain objects in utility rooms, then the bathroom rule becomes relevant.


    I finally got to the end of this thread. Wow! I was not aware of you background. As a past lawyer you should be aware why things are done----because of LAWS. Well, this is also done in other fields. Here they are called----Codes.

    Instead of making an ass of yourself here, I would suggest again, back out, apologize, and come back with intelligent questions without "what you would do" if this happened. If you still want to ask silly questions such as those above---go though the other threads here---your answer may already waiting for you.

    The HI people, contractors, and other disciplines represented here are a vast source of knowledge. The reason there are discussions here about specific situations is because, unlike law that has many books that anyone can use to look up something that doesn't change, no structure is the same anywhere---even if it is built with the same set of plans. local codes, national codes, when the code was effective/changed, materials, when constructed, poor construction, and other factors such as someone like you with no knowledge---deciding to completely wire his home (as an example), that make each situation different.

    Some people have tried to help you, but from your responses to them they had to tell you nicely to back off.... but from what I have read, you haven't. With that attitude and insulting people as you have, I don't see you getting anywhere in your "new field." Rereading your above comments one may have an idea why you are changing fields.

    Like I said before, chill out, apologize (believe it or not the folks here will respond to a sincere apology), and start over. For someone seeking knowledge from qualified folks, in a filed that the person has NO knowledge----you have been quite snotty to the folks here and have burned a lot of bridges. It's up to you now.


  31. #31
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    Default Re: Panel in bathroom?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rich Goeken View Post
    I finally got to the end of this thread. Wow! I was not aware of you background. As a past lawyer you should be aware why things are done----because of LAWS. Well, this is also done in other fields. Here they are called----Codes. .
    You apparently cannot read very well, because I have not challenged the code. I have been trying to find the reason for the code in order to better understand it.


  32. #32
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    Default Re: Panel in bathroom?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rich Goeken View Post
    Some people have tried to help you, but from your responses to them they had to tell you nicely to back off.... but from what I have read, you haven't. With that attitude and insulting people as you have,
    Again, you apparently cannot read very well. Where have I insulted anyone? Where have A.D or the other initial guy been nice?


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    Default Re: Panel in bathroom?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kary Krismer View Post
    Again, you apparently cannot read very well. Where have I insulted anyone? Where have A.D or the other initial guy been nice?

    Posts 4 & 5 JackA$$ on this thread, amognst hundreds of posts throughout this forum directed towards others, yourself previously included.

    Where have you insulted? Throughout your participation on this forum, presenting yourself as a demanding, petulant, nit-wit TROLL.


  34. #34
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    Default Re: Panel in bathroom?

    I must have taken a wrong turn somewhere...I was looking for the Inspection News website but somehow ended up on the Jerry Springer Show! This is great entertainment! Can we do the Gong Show next?


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    Default Re: Panel in bathroom?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kary Krismer View Post
    As to the rest of you you're focusing too much on the bathroom. I'm trying to focus on the utility room

    I see the problem ... you are trying to redefine that room from a "bathroom" to a "utility room" so that no code, and it supporting data and reasons, will be applied.

    Sorry to say, but no sell here, that is, by definition, a "bathroom", and it will remain so as long as there is a sink and a toilet/shower/tub/etc. in it too.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  36. #36
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    Default Re: Panel in bathroom?

    I guess things are different up here. Up here in Washington we expect inspectors who call out safety issues to know why it's a safety issue.

    Let's say Tom reports to the buyer that the panel doesn't meet code because it's in a bathroom.

    The buyer says: Isn't it grandfathered?

    Tom says: Yes, but it's a safety concern!

    The buyer says: Why?

    Tom says: Because it's against code!

    Seems a bit circular, don't you think? Without knowing what the reason is for the code provision, how is the buyer to assess the safety risk? If it's just the lock issue, he might not care, unless perhaps it's a rental (tenants do all sorts of strange things). If it's a humidity issue, he probably would care a lot more and look at the cost of moving the panel. If the inspector tells him it's because parts of him are naked in the bathroom and more of a shock risk, he's going to realize he made a huge mistake in picking an inspector.

    Last edited by Kary Krismer; 07-10-2010 at 06:36 PM.

  37. #37
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    Default Re: Panel in bathroom?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    I see the problem ... you are trying to redefine that room from a "bathroom" to a "utility room" so that no code, and it supporting data and reasons, will be applied..
    Not at all. I'm trying to determine what the safety risk is. Is it proximity to a toilet? I really doubt it because it's not a proximity rule and proximity to a toilet is a lot less dangerous than proximity to a hot water tank. Is it humidity? I doubt that because a toilet and sink don't tend to create much humidity.

    Based on all I've read I think it's the lock issue. Too bad no one here came up with that and I had to find it on another forum. Unfortunately that was just speculation on that other forum based on the 1993 code (which possibly is the code that added the bathroom issue) and I think 1966 code, so I don't have anything to cite to prove that. But of all the explanations it seems to fit the best. But if someone has a better explanation or a cite, again that would be appreciated.


  38. #38
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    Default Re: Panel in bathroom?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kary Krismer View Post
    Not at all. I'm trying to determine what the safety risk is. Is it proximity to a toilet? I really doubt it because it's not a proximity rule and proximity to a toilet is a lot less dangerous than proximity to a hot water tank. Is it humidity? I doubt that because a toilet and sink don't tend to create much humidity.

    Based on all I've read I think it's the lock issue. Too bad no one here came up with that and I had to find it on another forum. Unfortunately that was just speculation on that other forum based on the 1993 code (which possibly is the code that added the bathroom issue) and I think 1966 code, so I don't have anything to cite to prove that. But of all the explanations it seems to fit the best. But if someone has a better explanation or a cite, again that would be appreciated.
    All of this is pretty interesting.

    They write the code to include this bathroom basically as an access and safety issue. Why....most bathrooms ans I mean most bathrooms, especially most what I call half baths in particular in general do not have proper clearances around the toilets, around the sink in front of or beside the panel before it encroaches on other defined areas and water spraying or toilet flooding and the door locked and and and and ad.

    And all of that is the reason why they just include bathrooms without having to break it down into a thousand pieces.

    Not to mention....putting a breaker panel, main panel, remote panel etc etc in a bathroom is just plain idiotic.

    Besides being dumb there are far to any what ifs. Lets see. My thing is out, power clicks off, like the idiot I am I reach over to switch the breaker back on etc. Or my hands are wet or there is steam from leaving the water in the sink running or the tile floor is wet and I am in my bare feet washing and so an and so on and so on.

    Not being an ass here but your point about the real issue is!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!??????????????

    There are so many reason after thinking about an 1/8 of a second that it is scary that the normal Norman could not think of the same things.

    Ted Menelly, Castle Home Inspection Services
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  39. #39
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    Default Re: Panel in bathroom?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kary Krismer View Post
    For the others, I think I may have stumbled across a reason for the rule that makes some sense. A room that has a tub, shower or toilet is also very likely to have a lock, and therefore not always be accessible.

    Apparently you did not read my post above where bathrooms not in dwelling units are allowed to have overcurrent devices in them, and those bathrooms HAVE LOCKS ...

    However ... ... I have always used that same reason to argue against installing panels in ANY bathroom in ANY occupancy - but the code allows it as I have described above and in my other post above.

    Reminds me of the joke where the attorney is quizzing the doctor on the stand ...
    Q. How do you know that person was dead?
    A. Because he was laying on my autopsy table.

    Q. But did you check his pulse?
    A. No. There was no need to.

    Q. Why? How did you know he was dead?
    A. Because his brain was in a jar on my desk.

    Q. But couldn't that person have still been alive?
    A. Yes, I suppose so. That person without a brain could be practicing law and asking me how I knew a person without a brain was really dead.



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  40. #40
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    Default Re: Panel in bathroom?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kary Krismer View Post
    I guess things are different up here. Up here in Washington we expect inspectors who call out safety issues to know why it's a safety issue.

    Let's say Tom reports to the buyer that the panel doesn't meet code because it's in a bathroom.

    The buyer says: Isn't it grandfathered?

    Tom says: Yes, but it's a safety concern!

    The buyer says: Why?

    Tom says: Because it's against code!

    Seems a bit circular, don't you think? Without knowing what the reason is for the code provision, how is the buyer to assess the safety risk? If it's just the lock issue, he might not care, unless perhaps it's a rental (tenants do all sorts of strange things). If it's a humidity issue, he probably would care a lot more and look at the cost of moving the panel. If the inspector tells him it's because parts of him are naked in the bathroom and more of a shock risk, he's going to realize he made a huge mistake in picking an inspector.
    That is a hypothetical report you are creating so you can make your point. Any inspector that quotes code will be intelligent enough to have answers for you.

    My report would say "E. Panel in bathroom - safety hazard - Repair." No C word in my report.

    If anyone is dense enough to ask why, it's simple to answer the question, just read some of the posts above. Bare feet on a wet floor, potential shock hazard. Damp humid location - potential corrosion hazard, and that goes for laundry rooms too.

    E. panel next to the water heater, that's a good location, no comment.


    We are not code inspectors or enforcers. I don't have to justify to any realtor what I've put in my report, unless it is wrong, and it never is.

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  41. #41
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    Default Re: Panel in bathroom?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Apparently you did not read my post above where bathrooms not in dwelling units are allowed to have overcurrent devices in them, and those bathrooms HAVE LOCKS ...
    Not quite what you seemed to be saying in this thread.

    Service Panel Location


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    Default Re: Panel in bathroom?

    Looks like this thread needs a little adult supervision .....

    Kary has a fair question, and for asking it some folks have had all manner of fun saying rude things. Kary is not the question; bathroom panels are.

    Let's hop into the 'wayback machine' a decade or so, and perhaps we will find our answers. Just how did the NEC come to address the issue of panels in residential bathrooms?

    Perhaps no individual has had a more significant impact on NEC proposals than Joe Tedesco. Through his seminars and internet activities, he is famous for his photos of various electrical nightmares.

    At one point he encountered several panels that were installed not only in bathrooms, but within shower stalls. Other panels, located in locations such as right above bathroom sinks showed all manner of rust. Not a pretty site; before you knew it, there was a code prohibition regarding placing a panel in a bathroom.

    There were two main areas of concern discussed: the fact that the incoming power was not / could not be GFCI protected, and there was concern about the effect of condensation on the inner workings of breakers.

    As with every other situation in life, we might want to examine our assumptions; sometimes that will reveal where we need to change our thinking.

    In the days where it was common to place panels in bathrooms - or closets, for that matter - a 'panel' was usually a fuse box, with only a few circuits. The 30+ circuit, 200-amp monstrosities that are now commonplace were simply unheard of. Placing the panel in some out-of-the-way place, like behind the bathroom door, seemed reasonable.

    Another assumption was what constituted a bathroom. In most instances, a 'bathroom' has a toilet, a small sink, and a shower or tub. Thake away the tub, and you have a 'half-bath.' The bathroom is also imagined to be the smallest room in a house, and ventilation issues / moisture issues are common.
    That. at least, is the perception.

    The NEC attempted to define bathroom as 'a room ....,' a definition that, oddly enough, failed to account for the 'Euro" style, where the sink is outside the room, while the toilet and tub are in separate 'closets.' So, in the last cycle the definition was changed to 'an area .....'

    Now, let's look at some of the past common practices regarding the 'laundry room.'

    Oddly enough, the idea of a separate laundry room is still something of a novelty. Indeed, it wasn't until the '96 NEC that there was even a hint of a requirement that there be any provision made for laundry equipment.

    So, the laundry facilities have tended to be shoe-horned into halls, garages, entrys, and, of course, the 'mechanical room.' Where laundry areas have had sinks, the sinks have been these massive tubs, completely lacking in any counter, cabinet, or mirror.

    Where laundry areas are deliberately planned, they are quite often placed between the house and the garage. This, oddly enough, is just the perfect place for the greasy overalls to be dumped after an afternoon of working on your car. To save on the mess resulting from the 'mechanic' tromping to the bathroom, these areas often have a toilet added.

    We've now created a situation where, following the spirit of a certain man from Arkansas, we're tempted to debate when a 'sink' is not really a 'sink.' One cetainly doesn't imagine many hair dryers and shavers being used at the laundry tub ... but I drift

    So far, we've been talking about bathrooms in houses. What about other bathrooms?

    Once we get away from the home, the 'bathroom' we picture is somewhat different. Perhaps we imagine a large room with many toilet stalls and a row of sinks. Absent a shower, those aren't really bathrooms- going by the code definition. Even with showers, we're inclined to call it a 'locker room,' not a bathroom.

    You can safely assume that all these variations were discussed, and this led to limiting the panel ban to 'residential' bathrooms.

    Personally, I think that the bathroom panel ban was a well-intentioned, but misguided, foray by the NEC into 'design issues.' At some point the AHJ will have to start earning his pay, and take responsibility for his rulings; it's still HIS call, not that of some publisher.

    The AHJ is the key. Once you accept the concept of having an AHJ, then his is the only opinion that matters.

    Likewise, there are a number of folks out there whose job descriptions include 'design.' When these folks do a poor job, all we can do is let the market operate. As an HI, it can be within your role to identify poor design choices - but you had better also be able to explain just why you think the design is flawed.

    Fail to do that, and you're in the spot Kary started, where others just shake their heads and mutter 'I don't see the problem.'


  43. #43
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    Default Re: Panel in bathroom?

    [quote=Jerry Peck;136772]
    Code do not change just willy-nilly because Billy Bob thought something might be a good idea, no, codes change as a result of injuries and deaths (for the most part) and to reduce the likelihood of injuries and death (for a lessor part, even though these changes are done as a result of related or associated injuries or deaths).

    When enough injuries or deaths happen, or something happens (like fires, which, by the way, cause injuries and death) then the code makers get together and ask all interested parties to submit changes, with supporting documentation and substantiation for the changes, proposing how to make the code better (i.e., how to make the electrical installations safer).


    Pretty close , but not quite on target.
    Codes do change because "billy Bob" thought something was a good idea.
    Anyone can write a code change proposal for any reason they feel is a good reason. There have been many code changes that were because "billy Bob" thought of a good idea, and due to deaths or fires!

    The members of the Code Making Panels ( "code makers" in laymens terms)
    do not wait for something to happen then gather together and put out requests for changes. The code making panels address code change proposals sent in by anyone and everyone. These proposals come from, electricians, Code Inspectors, contractors, manufactures, professional organizations, and anyone who has enough knowledge to look into the NEC.

    Many code changes have come about due to new technology, new products, results of prior change changes that affect another area of the code, clarifications are anopther big reason for a change. All of which is not the result of death, fire, or disaster.


  44. #44
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    Default Re: Panel in bathroom?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Menelly View Post
    Not being an ass here but your point about the real issue is!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!??????????????
    Fair question. As I mentioned before, if there's a patent issue with a house I like my client to know about it prior to writing an offer on the house. Thus, for example in every house I open the breaker box (especially if it's narrow) to check the brand and anything else that might be apparent without removing the cover. If it's a Zinsco/Sylvania I can warn them before hand about it, and that it's possible that the seller will refuse to change it out. I can advise them of the risks and consequences beforehand, and that can affect their being willing to make an offer and/or the amount of that offer.

    Now we have this issue. A panel in a bathroom is a patent condition. And perhaps I've not been clear by repeatedly saying it's not about the bathroom rule. By that I mean I'm not questioning the rule or the definition, but instead trying to determine the nature of the risk. I want to understand the nature of the risk so that if I come across this in a listing I can advise the client.

    So with that, what I really want to know is this:

    Is this risk similar to a kitchen not having a GFCI outlet--a shock hazard? If so, that's a life and death type of thing, and fairly serious. (BTW, I seriously doubt that's the rule because if that were the case there would also be a rule against having panels in garages on concrete floors next to garage doors--I don't think this is an operation of the panel rule.)

    Is this risk similar to having a panel in a closet--an access issue? If so, that's not so serious, unless perhaps it's going to be a rental at some point.

    Is this risk similar to having a Zinsco panel--an issue where the breakers or bars might become defective over time because of the humidity? If so, again that's fairly serious.

    Finally, this isn't something I would turn to any of you for, because it's local, but I'd also be concerned about the ability to upgrade the panel in the future, without the authorities requiring that it be moved, something that would be rather expensive.

    Quite frankly I find the reaction of some of you shocking. Let's say you had a stairway on a 1940 house where either the steps or the railing didn't meet current code. I would assume that you might point out that code violation, but only because it's a trip/fall hazard, and you would state the hazard. Without understanding exactly what the hazard is here with the panel, how can you advise your clients?


  45. #45
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    Default Re: Panel in bathroom?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Port View Post
    Not quite what you [Jerry Peck] seemed to be saying in this thread.

    Service Panel Location

    Thank you for pointing that out. Apparently these bathroom panel threads can become quite long and heated here!


  46. #46
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    Default Re: Panel in bathroom?

    Quote Originally Posted by John Kogel View Post
    If anyone is dense enough to ask why, it's simple to answer the question, just read some of the posts above. Bare feet on a wet floor, potential shock hazard. Damp humid location - potential corrosion hazard, and that goes for laundry rooms too.
    So from that am I correct in understanding that if you find a panel in a laundry room, your reports say it should be moved? (What I assume you mean by "repair.")

    Last edited by Kary Krismer; 07-11-2010 at 06:54 AM.

  47. #47
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    Default Re: Panel in bathroom?

    Quote Originally Posted by John Steinke View Post
    Looks like this thread needs a little adult supervision .....

    Kary has a fair question, and for asking it some folks have had all manner of fun saying rude things. Kary is not the question; bathroom panels are.'
    Thank you for your well thought out answer. I liked the historical insight. I'm not sure how that helps me advise my clients, but it was at a minimum interesting.


  48. #48
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    Default Re: Panel in bathroom?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kary Krismer View Post
    So from that am I correct in understanding that if you find a panel in a laundry room, your reports say it should be moved? (What I assume you mean by "repair.")
    No, you don't move the panel, you relocate the washer, and add ventilation.

    John Kogel, RHI, BC HI Lic #47455
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  49. #49
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    Default Re: Panel in bathroom?

    Quote Originally Posted by John Kogel View Post
    No, you don't move the panel, you relocate the washer, and add ventilation.
    That was one of my thoughts for the situation here. Remove the toilet. Assuming this is more than a 1.5 bathroom house, that wouldn't be a bad solution at all, and even if it was a 1.5, it wouldn't be a horrible solution. Although in this particular situation you still have the laundry equipment. But if the concern were needing a new or upgraded panel for a remodel, you should at least be able to do that if the toilet connections were gone.


  50. #50
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    Default Re: Panel in bathroom?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kary Krismer View Post
    That was one of my thoughts for the situation here. Remove the toilet. Assuming this is more than a 1.5 bathroom house, that wouldn't be a bad solution at all, and even if it was a 1.5, it wouldn't be a horrible solution. Although in this particular situation you still have the laundry equipment. But if the concern were needing a new or upgraded panel for a remodel, you should at least be able to do that if the toilet connections were gone.
    Again this is all hypothetical. I wouldn't worry about a panel next to a washer/dryer if there's the proper clearance in front and there's no sign of condensation in the panel and the room as plenty of air circulation.
    But when I see rust in the panel, I will call for a fix, and that should be to remove the moisture or the source of moisture.

    John Kogel, RHI, BC HI Lic #47455
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  51. #51
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    Default Re: Panel in bathroom?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Port View Post
    Not quite what you seemed to be saying in this thread.

    Service Panel Location
    Jim,

    Did you not read this is that same post? I will highlight it in bold red for your.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    However ... ... I have always used that same reason to argue against installing panels in ANY bathroom in ANY occupancy - but the code allows it as I have described above and in my other post above.

    I STILL say that reason applies, but the code making people apparently say it does not.

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    Default Re: Panel in bathroom?

    Kary, the issues I mentioned (inability to protect the incoming power, and the risks of corrosion / condensation issues) still apply. Code language aside, those (and accessibility) need to be addressed in placing the panel.

    Carrying things to an extreme, I've seen garages with a toilet behind a screen, a parts-washing sink on the opposite wall of the bay, and a panel at the far end. As it's all in the same "room," some might call it all a 'bathroom.'

    This is when you take comfort in the latest language, referring to the 'area,' rather than the room, and decide whether the panel really is in the 'area' at all.

    From an administrative viewpoint, there's a reason the letters "AHJ" stand for 'authority having jurisdiction.' The code publishers recognize that they have ZERO legal standing on the matter. Indeed, there are frequent references in sundry codes that recognize that the AHJ may waive or ammend the model code. It is the AHJ who we hire / elect to apply rules we / our delegates have approved. It is with him that the buck stops - and not with any code committee, anywhere. IMO, when the AHJ is content to cite code, and slavishly follows whatever a publisher suggests .... that man has abdicated his authority and undermined our very principle of SELF government.

    After my previous post, I had an idle thought. Lights, Jacuzzi tub, water heater, counter receptacles, steam generator ... the way bathrooms are developing, we'll soon see the day where codes will require a dedicated panel just for the bath. When that day comes, the issue of panel location will become lively .... especially when you consider the talent architects have for blurring definitions


  53. #53
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    Default Re: Panel in bathroom?

    Quote Originally Posted by John Steinke View Post
    Looks like this thread needs a little adult supervision .....

    Kary has a fair question, and for asking it some folks have had all manner of fun saying rude things. Kary is not the question; bathroom panels are.

    Let's hop into the 'wayback machine' a decade or so, and perhaps we will find our answers. Just how did the NEC come to address the issue of panels in residential bathrooms?

    John, you have missed the boat here, including some of your comments on where a "Laundry Room" is generally located. You may reference any current plans on any builder site to confirm where they are located----generally between the garage and the kitchen. I'm even going out on a limb here and say they are always located there unless specifically requested by the homeowner. Note "homeowner".

    Second comment. If you read through the thread you will see Kary jumped in here with both boots on, made aggressive statements, then expected everyone here to lead him through down the primrose lane giving him extensive specific information that he could research himself. I am not sure of his expertize, certified HI, taken some courses in home inspection or not, or what. It's his attitude that has set everyone off here. Check the remark about that he will tell the homeowner that they should do *this* with their electrical panel (or else?). I don't think that he is a HI or he would not be asking the questions he is asking. It appears that he wants to be one or impress his wife's clients with his knowledge (or lack thereof).


    Third comment. Your reply tends to be a little condescending and appears to have a few senior moments such as the example above.


    My experience level in making comments here.... was the person responsible for spec'ing, project managing, and installing communications rooms for a large metropolitan/statewide, state owned, transportation company, rail & bus. To do this I needed to have knowledge in all disciplines that would be on a construction site as well as applicable codes.

    With that in mind I say this: Kary-"forget about it". For very obvious reasons panels should not be in bathrooms or laundry rooms---codes or no codes. When or what changed it---who cares. It is for safety reasons. Wet floor--touch panel---sparks fly. Adequate service space in front of panel? Difficult.

    Now Kary, if you want to say something----make an observation about safety---go beyond the code. Or research it so you have the references on paper. I remember a statement someone made here----If you build to code and slip up once---you have a unsafe house and it is uninhabitable. I have issues with some portions of the code that are not clear and cause different interpretations on the job site. I will followup on these issues by refering them to the "code makers". .

    And Kary, tone down your comments, aggressiveness, and people will be more kind to you.


  54. #54
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    Default Re: Panel in bathroom?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rich Goeken View Post
    Second comment. If you read through the thread you will see Kary jumped in here with both boots on, made aggressive statements, then expected everyone here to lead him. . ...
    I've read through this entire thread, and I have no idea what you're talking about. What aggressive comments did I make?


  55. #55
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    Angry Re: Panel in bathroom?

    The “Cliff Notes" version of this debate:

    Motorist: “Officer, it’s not reasonable to give me a ticket for running that light – I had a clear view of the intersection, and there was no cross-traffic!”

    “Officer: "If you don’t like the law, get it changed.”
    ____________

    The unabridged version:

    In many cases it is impossible to define (or even imagine in advance) every possible instance/permutation of a given construction technique.

    For this reason many building code provisions are *not* intended to “make sense” in *every specific instance* - they are instead intended to define a general classes of situations in which they *must* be applied *even if * they don’t “make sense” in a given specific instance.

    To take a simpler example than the one on offer (but illustrating the same principle) the current NEC requires GFCI protection at every receptacle outlet over a counter in a kitchen.

    In many kitchens some of these locations will present much greater actual risks than others, and in some kitchens the actual risk created by missing GFCI protection at a given location may be negligible.

    When a home inspector chooses referencing current national standards in formulating their reporting standards (for example, to reduce liability), the wording and intent of the NEC does not allow home inspectors to choose a certain specific instance as presenting a negligible risk and then allowing it to forgo GFCI protection.

    And this is a deliberate decision on the part of those drafting the code – they *specifically intended* to prohibit individuals from making such judgments.

    Now look at the current example in this same light: the code does not allow a home inspector (on anyone else except for the AHJ, in certain specific circumstance) to “rewrite” the code provisions with regard to prohibited panels based on personal judgment of risk in specific circumstances.

    And it's not the inspectors responsibility to decide when these prohibitions should be applied depending on "whether or not they make sense” in a specific instance.

    So when the question is not “does the code apply?", but rather ”does applying the code make sense in this specific instance?" then it’s not the home inspector’s responsibility to argue the point with a skeptical real estate agent (or anyone else), rather it’s the skeptic's job to convince the code writers that the code should not apply in such instances.

    Last edited by Michael Thomas; 07-12-2010 at 12:09 PM.
    Michael Thomas
    Paragon Property Services Inc., Chicago IL
    http://paragoninspects.com

  56. #56
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    Default Re: Panel in bathroom?

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Thomas View Post
    So when the question is not “does the code apply” but rather ”does applying the code make sense in this specific instance” then it’s not the home inspector’s responsibility tp argue the point with a real estate agent (or anyone else) ,
    It's the HI's responsibility to be able to explain the report to the buyer and any other party to the transaction the buyer wants them to explain it to (unless perhaps they limited their responsibilities beforehand). If the HI is unable able to do that, without resorting to arguing, they really aren't doing their job very well, IMHO.


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    Default Re: Panel in bathroom?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kary Krismer View Post
    It's the HI's responsibility to be able to explain the report to the buyer and any other party to the transaction the buyer wants them to explain it to (unless perhaps they limited their responsibilities beforehand). If the HI is unable able to do that, without resorting to arguing, they really aren't doing their job very well, IMHO.

    God... I am tired of this crap. Where do you get these all encompassing claims from? You keep coming out with these from left field---in an area you already admit you know nothing about. Cool your jets!! You sound more and more off-base with each new statement.


    Let's try a different tact that you may be able to understand. You ask for a specific report for $$$. It is presented to with the assumption that you can read.

    If you can't read the HI will answer your questions at $$$ per minute. Oh by the way, the HI will add and include fees for phone calls, copying, transportation, and other charges to "Explain the Report"-------you know, like lawyers do.....


  58. #58
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    Default Re: Panel in bathroom?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rich Goeken View Post
    God... I am tired of this crap. Where do you get these all encompassing claims from? You keep coming out with these from left field---in an area you already admit you know nothing about. Cool your jets!! You sound more and more off-base with each new statement.


    Let's try a different tact that you may be able to understand. You ask for a specific report for $$$. It is presented to with the assumption that you can read.

    If you can't read the HI will answer your questions at $$$ per minute. Oh by the way, the HI will add and include fees for phone calls, copying, transportation, and other charges to "Explain the Report"-------you know, like lawyers do.....
    I can only guess that you get business through advertising rather than client/agent referrals.

    BTW, did you know that getting experts through advertising is the best way to get a really bad expert? I'll let you put two and two together on that.


  59. #59
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    Default Re: Panel in bathroom?

    Quote Originally Posted by A.D. Miller View Post
    KK:

    While it is desirable and reasonable to assume that an HI will take the time to explain the contents of his or her report to his clients, it is by no means his or her "responsibility". There are few, if any, states with an SOP as strict as Texas, and it is not a requirement here. We are required to inspect and provide a written report. Nothing more.
    Given the latest post I'll break my policy of not responding to you because of your being a cyberbully.

    It's interesting that even you are more reasonable on this topic than the later poster. But you are correct. I wasn't trying to imply that you had an unlimited duty to explain your report to whoever your client asks you to. But as a matter of having some minimal level of customer service, if not even possibly ethics, I think there is some minimal duty to explain your report to your clients if your report leaves them with questions. Are you going to lose your license for not doing so? I doubt it. But you're not going to have a very happy client if you don't.

    Beyond that, in Washington we typically provide the name of three inspectors. In the past I've removed inspectors from my list that have missed items that they shouldn't have missed. If I came across an inspector who refused to explain his report to a client or myself, they would be gone too.


  60. #60
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    Default Re: Panel in bathroom?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kary Krismer View Post
    Given the latest post I'll break my policy of not responding to you because of your being a cyberbully.

    It's interesting that even you are more reasonable on this topic than the later poster. But you are correct. I wasn't trying to imply that you had an unlimited duty to explain your report to whoever your client asks you to. But as a matter of having some minimal level of customer service, if not even possibly ethics, I think there is some minimal duty to explain your report to your clients if your report leaves them with questions. Are you going to lose your license for not doing so? I doubt it. But you're not going to have a very happy client if you don't.

    Beyond that, in Washington we typically provide the name of three inspectors. In the past I've removed inspectors from my list that have missed items that they shouldn't have missed. If I came across an inspector who refused to explain his report to a client or myself, they would be gone too.
    Kary

    I just have to say this.

    No matter what anyone says to you or what ever explanation they give to you or thought or idea or notion or what ifs or what fors you have had a come back to every single person that has responded to anything you have said.

    It is serious time to hang it up.

    You have gone completely over the edge with everything.

    You act like the inspectors are working for you and they have some form of obligation to you . You refer them and then get the hell out of the way. You should have absolutely no involvement what so ever with the inspection process or reporting. For some reason you feel you must know everything about another line of work or profession so you can do your job. In many years from now you may have a good understanding of home inspections but never know everything about the profession. Stop trying to judge and jury everything. I am willing to bet you have been kicked out of a court room or two or found in contempt. If not then some one must have stuck a sock in your mouth to keep it from going that far. Or another possibility is that you hounded and questioned everyone to death and the judge and or jury got fed up with it and ruled against you and the poor client.

    If in fact a Home Inspector does not go over his finding with a client then he is an ass. All home inspectors go over their findings with the client. If for some reason you have a problem with an inspector not reporting to you then it is your problem not theirs. Again, they have no obligation to you what so ever. You are taking one particular item of a particular inspection and beating the dead horse with it for days.

    You are a Realtor and x attorney. You only need a reasonable understanding of inspections and reporting. It is your job to stop questioning the inspector until he dies of old freaking age.

    You have been give countless items to choose from why it is not an extremely bright idea whether it be code or safety or common sense. You have chose to ignore every damn one of them and continue to beat that dead horse until his guts are on the ground around him.

    You repetitious come backs about "well if it shouldn't be there then it shouldn't be here as well has nothing to do with why in fact the panel should not be in a bathroom.

    Why don't you just say that it might as well be behind or beside the sink or behind the toilet or in the shower or where ever you think it will be alright instead of the countless reasons everyone told you it is not alright.

    Concentrate.....shut it.....listen...take a breath.....keep calm.......and stop being the frigging kid in the back seat asking if "are we there yet"

    Take some strong advise. You have died and been buried already. Dead men cannot breath or talk. Question and reason time on this matter died a long time ago. You carried the dead horse around for so damn long now the carcass is rotting and you are suffocating everyone with it. Take the damn answers you got from a serious amount of responses and run with it. Stop and figure it out.

    Remember one thing that is extremely important in your new line of work. The home inspector does not work for you. If you don't like them then don't refer them. But , in any case, leave them the hell alone. They have no obligation to you in the slightest.

    They will answer you questions for clarification due to the mutual clients needs. Whether you like that answer or not, code, common sense, safety, what ever, you are still, quite obviously, present it to your client or listing agent or seller of a home anyway you wish. It is obvious that that is the type of person you are. You have reasoned (not really but you think you have) everything to death that has been told to you and still keep coming up with your own rhyme and reason.

    End it. Go on to the next thought in another thread. No more could be told to you about this and even if there were more you still would not have any form of completion.

    Ted Menelly, Castle Home Inspection Services
    www.inspectmycastle.com
    Fort Worth, Keller, Southlake, Plano, Flower Mound, DFW, TX

  61. #61
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    Default Re: Panel in bathroom?

    Overcurrent protection devices should not be located where they would be subjected to physical damage or in areas where they might create a fire or safety hazard. Some specific locations are prohibited in dwelling units. They include:

    Near easily ignitible material, such as in clothes closets. The purpose of keeping overcurrent protection devices away from easily ignitible material is to prevent fires - not to keep them out of clothes closets.

    In the bathrooms of dwelling units, or guest rooms or guest suites of hotels or motels. The service disconnecting means must not be located in a bathroom, even in commercial or industrial facilities.
    The reasons the CMPs have offered regarding the absolute prohibition of overcurrent devices in dwelling unit bathrooms, guest rooms and guest suites of hotels and motels and not others are numerous, but are (IMHO) best summed up in the following:

    Quote Originally Posted by Panel Statement
    The use of a dwelling unit or guest suite bathroom is much different than other bathrooms. The submitter's substantiation shares concern for there being a hose-down application hazard. The environmental protection of overcurrent protective devices is addressed in 240.32.
    That is a snippet from 2010 ROP Proposal 10-63. You can find it here (clickable link)

    http://www.nfpa.org/Assets/Files/PDF...-A2010-ROP.pdf

    Quote Originally Posted by 10-63 document pp 238 of 1209

    10-63 Log #555 NEC-P10 Final Action: Reject

    (240.24(E))

    Submitter: Joe Riley, City of Arlington
    Recommendation: Revise text as follows:

    (E) Not Located in Bathrooms or Restrooms. In dwelling units and guestrooms or guest suites of hotels and motels; Overcurrent devices, other than supplementary overcurrent protection, shall not be located in any bathroom or restroom.

    Substantiation: Many restrooms are constructed with ceramic walls and floors to provide a convenient method of cleansing with house spray any wash matter and residue to floor drains. The regular wash down and sanitization of restroom walls and floors permits individuals' exposure to electrical shock hazards since the walls and floors are grounded tile surfaces with overcurrent devices installed in restroom areas that may be damp, wet, or were moisture may be present.

    Panel Meeting Action: Reject

    Panel Statement: The use of a dwelling unit or guest suite bathroom is much different than other bathrooms. The submitter's substantiation shares concern for there being a hose-down application hazard. The environmental protection of overcurrent protective devices is addressed in 240.32.

    The submitter has not provided adequate substantiation to expand this requirement to bathrooms/restrooms in other than guest rooms, guest suites, or dwelling units.

    Number Eligible to Vote: 12

    Ballot Results: Affirmative: 12

    Comment on Affirmative:

    COOK, D: While I agree with the Panel action to reject the proposal to expand the requirement to additional restroom types, the last sentance of the first paragraph in the Panel statement indicates the environmental protection of overcurrent devices is addressed in 240.32. That statement would seem to apply to the existing restrooms where overcurrent devices are prohibited. Providing the undersired conditons that need to be avoided for overcurrent devices rather than a building or occupancy type would result in more uniform enforcement.
    Experienced users of the Code know that numerous other areas address such things as protection of equipment, dry, damp and wet locations, dedicated equipment space, access, washed walls & floors, etc.

    The conclusionary statements are based upon what was historically determined and continues to be re-confirmed regarding identified "safety" issues, submitted reports, studies, etc. and met consensus (the NEC is a Standard). Substantial changes in other areas of the code throughout chapters 1, 2, 3 & 4 have taken place over the last three decades, and continue to change. I would direct the reader also to the prefix, scope and purpose sections. Certain areas (such as bathroom receptacles) are mandated to be "upgraded" to GFCI protection when replaced. The CMPs have "Accepted in Principle" requirements to do same for AFCI protection to receptacles when replaced and TR when replaced in dwelling units and guest rooms/suites (also "accepted in principle to delete hotels and motel and add dormitory). Point being "NEC" being followed strictly and only to the minimum perscriptive requirement in no way assures a safe system for the equipment itself, the property, or the users. A safe system is designed, maintained, and adapted, to be so.

    Personally, I see no reason to pull out old reports from the 50s, 60s & 70s (introduction of mandated GFCI protection to receptacles in dwelling unit "bathrooms" was circa 74ish IIRC, prohibition of "floating grounds" to interior metalic water piping late 80s or early 90s IIRC) to go into gross detail of what those "activities" in such bathrooms which may normally be expected to include!

    O.T. :

    Especially for an ex-attorney-turned realtor who uninformed and unqualified, shows up here like a lazy and petulant child demanding he be "educated". Most especially NOT to aid in his supposed vain to do his own "pre-inspection" dabbling in a dual role with his activies as self-appointed home pre-inspector (unqualified and unlicensed as he may be) on behalf of his buyer-agent clients (buyers). And he wonders why so many realtor clients, home inspectors, contractors, and others are so loathe of "realtors", and for that matter, the general population of attorneys?

    A realtor is NOT a job cost estimator, specifier, designer, contractor, tradesman, architect, engineer, foundation expert, or home inspector. They are commission salespeople of real property - and that is about it, their motivation is to get some smuck to buy the property for the highest amount possible as quickly as possible, so as to get that fat-as-possible commission check cleared through their bank account as quickly as possible. Home Inspector ethics wouldn't allow for one to act as a home inspector in a transaction they had another interest in (such as a buyers agent, sellers agent, broker for same, interest in the property, or a future contract to perform work, etc.).

    Yes ethics, ethical standards, standards of practice. Wouldn't expect K.K. to understand, being a no-longer-practicing attorney-turned-realtor.

    I'm heading out to get new safety boots.


  62. #62
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    Default Re: Panel in bathroom?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Menelly View Post
    You act like the inspectors are working for you and they have some form of obligation to you . You refer them and then get the hell out of the way. You should have absolutely no involvement what so ever with the inspection process or reporting. For some reason you feel you must know everything about another line of work or profession so you can do your job. In many years from now you may have a good understanding of home inspections but never know everything about the profession. Stop trying to judge and jury everything. I am willing to bet you have been kicked out of a court room or two or found in contempt.
    As to the last point first, the ignorant guesses of HIs on this site gets annoying. I've never been found in contempt.

    As to the rest of the quoted material, as I've already explained, I wanted to understand this issue so that if I ever found a panel in a bathroom, I could explain to the client the concerns prior to their making an offer. But in any case, I'm hardly going to get out of the way of an inspector. I have to understand their entire report because I have to help the buyers address the report in their negotiations with the seller, or visa versa.

    Rather obviously many of the HIs here don't have a clue what a real estate agent does, or even what happens with their report after they send it out. What ultimately happens depends on the market and a lot of other factors the inspector would have no reason to know. But the bottom line is the agents do need to be heavily involved with inspections.


  63. #63
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    Default Re: Panel in bathroom?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kary Krismer View Post
    As to the last point first, the ignorant guesses of HIs on this site gets annoying. I've never been found in contempt.

    As to the rest of the quoted material, as I've already explained, I wanted to understand this issue so that if I ever found a panel in a bathroom, I could explain to the client the concerns prior to their making an offer. But in any case, I'm hardly going to get out of the way of an inspector. I have to understand their entire report because I have to help the buyers address the report in their negotiations with the seller, or visa verse.

    Rather obviously many of the HIs here don't have a clue what a real estate agent does, or even what happens with their report after they send it out. What ultimately happens depends on the market and a lot of other factors the inspector would have no reason to know. But the bottom line is the agents do need to be heavily involved with inspections.

    What you need to know is what the clients wish to get fixed after they know the findings of the home inspection. Not to talk them out of what they want to get fixed because of what ever reason you decide. Fact is you are now, but hopefully not in the future, one of the worse type of Realtors there are out there.

    If you only new how many Realtors there are out there that constantly interject their opinion as to what is safe, not safe, grandfathered etc etc etc etc as the home inspector is going over the report is absolutely absurd.

    That is called influencing the inspection. That is why you are ethically suppose to keep your mouth shut (sorry, cannot figure out a way to get it across to you) at the inspection. There is a professional there inspecting the home. What you are doing and wish to do is act as inspector and Realtor and talk your clients out of asking for particular items to asked to get fixed because you know what is and what is not to be included in a home inspection.

    If your client wishes to add to an addendum for repairs requested on any item they choose to think of as safe or unsafe or costly or not it is your job to try your best to negotiate those repairs/replacements or just asking for an allowance for those items. . And this is based on what the professional Home Inspector has gone over with them about the inspection.

    You need to go back to Real Estate school and or just ask a well experienced PROFESSIONAL Realtor what your are suppose to do before, during or after an inspection. You do not have the experience and cannot get it on here as to what to inform your clients about.

    Ethics my dear boy.....ethics. As an attorney you are suppose to know such simple terms and follow them....Ethics.

    I had a Realtor interjecting while I was going over an inspection just last week. I brought up a 23 year old AC condenser. I informed them that it was long past its anticipated life span. Before I could even finish explaining he buds in about how nice and cool it was in the home and the sellers will never give an allowance towards replacement etc etc etc etc

    I waited for Realtor (very nice of me) to finish so I could explain to them the involvement in replacement due to the newer standards and such. The Realtor pops right back in interrupting us about no one is going to give him anything and that is what home warranties are all about.

    That Realtor brought several other items up as I was going over the report. That is not the norm and not his place to be disputing anything and or going over addendum's or what to ask for and what not to ask for. Absolutely unethical. He was only worried about the sale. Not what the real concerns in the home were. The only reason he was there was to hold the buyers hand and squash any concern I came up with that took 37 years of building and inspecting experience to pass on to MY client. You see, at the inspection the client is MY client, not yours. You do your job in finding a home they may wish to buy and I do my job explaining the concerns to them.

    You stay out of the inspecting and the inspectors stay out of the home selling. Never the twain shall meet. That is the SOPs and that is the Ethics of Real Estate transactions and Inspection.

    95 percent of the time in Texas the Realtors for either side are not at the home inspection but may show up at the end and then it is only the buyers agent. Neither Realtor wants to be anywhere near the inspection and the seller is almost never there so no party has an influence on the home inspection or the home inspection findings and the Realtors (almost) never interject.

    Ted Menelly, Castle Home Inspection Services
    www.inspectmycastle.com
    Fort Worth, Keller, Southlake, Plano, Flower Mound, DFW, TX

  64. #64
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    Default Re: Panel in bathroom?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Menelly View Post
    What you need to know is what the clients wish to get fixed after they know the findings of the home inspection. Not to talk them out of what they want to get fixed because of what ever reason you decide. Fact is you are now, but hopefully not in the future, one of the worse type of Realtors there are out there.

    If you only new how many Realtors there are out there that constantly interject their opinion as to what is safe, not safe, grandfathered etc etc etc etc as the home inspector is going over the report is absolutely absurd.

    That is called influencing the inspection. That is why you are ethically suppose to keep your mouth shut (sorry, cannot figure out a way to get it across to you) at the inspection. There is a professional there inspecting the home. What you are doing and wish to do is act as inspector and Realtor and talk your clients out of asking for particular items to asked to get fixed because you know what is and what is not to be included in a home inspection.

    If your client wishes to add to an addendum for repairs requested on any item they choose to think of as safe or unsafe or costly or not it is your job to try your best to negotiate those repairs/replacements or just asking for an allowance for those items. . And this is based on what the professional Home Inspector has gone over with them about the inspection.

    You need to go back to Real Estate school and or just ask a well experienced PROFESSIONAL Realtor what your are suppose to do before, during or after an inspection. You do not have the experience and cannot get it on here as to what to inform your clients about.

    Ethics my dear boy.....ethics. As an attorney you are suppose to know such simple terms and follow them....Ethics.

    I had a Realtor interjecting while I was going over an inspection just last week. I brought up a 23 year old AC condenser. I informed them that it was long past its anticipated life span. Before I could even finish explaining he buds in about how nice and cool it was in the home and the sellers will never give an allowance towards replacement etc etc etc etc

    I waited for Realtor (very nice of me) to finish so I could explain to them the involvement in replacement due to the newer standards and such. The Realtor pops right back in interrupting us about no one is going to give him anything and that is what home warranties are all about.

    That Realtor brought several other items up as I was going over the report. That is not the norm and not his place to be disputing anything and or going over addendum's or what to ask for and what not to ask for. Absolutely unethical. He was only worried about the sale. Not what the real concerns in the home were. The only reason he was there was to hold the buyers hand and squash any concern I came up with that took 37 years of building and inspecting experience to pass on to MY client. You see, at the inspection the client is MY client, not yours. You do your job in finding a home they may wish to buy and I do my job explaining the concerns to them.

    You stay out of the inspecting and the inspectors stay out of the home selling. Never the twain shall meet. That is the SOPs and that is the Ethics of Real Estate transactions and Inspection.

    95 percent of the time in Texas the Realtors for either side are not at the home inspection but may show up at the end and then it is only the buyers agent. Neither Realtor wants to be anywhere near the inspection and the seller is almost never there so no party has an influence on the home inspection or the home inspection findings and the Realtors (almost) never interject.

    Ted.... you are cruising for a another ridiculous reply..... Very well explained though...


  65. #65
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    Default Re: Panel in bathroom?

    Ted, that last post was just total nonsense. You don't even understand the role your own profession plays in the process. This may come as a shock to you, but buyers don't necessarily ask for everything reported in an inspection report. Even in this market they seldom do. But in any case you'd have to have a really desperate seller for one to agree to move a panel from a bathroom, and they certainly aren't going to do it simply because a HI says it violates code without any further explanation. So before a buyer asks for that, they better understand the reason for asking it, because it will likely be the difference between buying the house an not buying the house if they are unwilling to negotiate that point. Anyone with even a basic understanding of the real estate business would understand that. Those that only understand a tiny part of the process wouldn't. Guess which group you fall in.

    But in any case, that isn't what this thread is about. But for my involvement in this thread the OP would have asked his question and you guys would have answered that it is a bathroom and violates code. The OP most likely would not have been in any position to answer the questions his client later asked, because if he didn't know the code he probably didn't know the reason for the code. And therefore he would have been in no position to tell his client why this was important, or to give his client the ammunition to negotiate the point if the client wanted to do so.


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