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  1. #1
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    Default AFCI in attached bathroom

    Opinions and rules about AFCI requirements on bedrooms with an attached bath and no intervening door? Should there be Arc Fault protection in the bath since it is in the room by some definitions (make-up/combustion air rules) or is it another room even though there is no door? New construction but still on the 2003 IRC.
    Thanks, Jim

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    Default Re: AFCI in attached bathroom

    Jim L.,

    A room in architecture is any distinguishable space within a structure.

    2003 IRC 3802.1 Bathroom shall have GFCI protection.

    It's certainly a distinguishable space a barstool by the window might be nice.

    It Might have Choked Artie But it ain't gone'a choke Stymie! Our Gang " The Pooch " (1932)
    Billy J. Stephens HI Service Memphis TN.

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    Default Re: AFCI in attached bathroom

    No question about the GFCI, the Question is AFCI. Common sense says protect it since it is common to the bedroom, but what does the code say.
    This is new construction and the city boys did not require it, but the drug their feet for years about smoke detectors being AFCI protected.

    Jim Luttrall
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    Default Re: AFCI in attached bathroom

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Luttrall View Post
    AFCI requirements on bedrooms with an attached bath and no intervening door? Should there be Arc Fault protection in the bath New construction but still on the 2003 IRC.
    Thanks, Jim
    Jim L.

    (Cleaned Glasses) AFCI

    2003 IRC E3902 Receptacles Shows NO Requirement for AFCI in Definitions.

    It Might have Choked Artie But it ain't gone'a choke Stymie! Our Gang " The Pooch " (1932)
    Billy J. Stephens HI Service Memphis TN.

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    Default Re: AFCI in attached bathroom

    E3802.11 Bedroom Outlets. All branch circuits that supply 125 volt single-phase, 15- and-ampere outlets installed in dwelling unit bedrooms shall be protected by an arc-fault circuit interrupter listed to provide protection of the entire branch circuit.

    The NEC 2005 says basically the same thing and neither list bedroom in the definition pages.

    Question is does the partial wall end the bedroom for the purpose of electrical Arc Fault protection.
    Jim

    Jim Luttrall
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    Default Re: AFCI in attached bathroom

    Quote Originally Posted by Billy Stephens View Post
    Jim L.,

    A room in architecture is any distinguishable space within a structure..
    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Luttrall View Post
    but what does the code say.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Luttrall View Post
    E3802.11 Bedroom Outlets. All branch circuits that supply 125 volt single-phase, 15- and-ampere outlets installed in dwelling unit bedrooms shall be protected by an arc-fault circuit interrupter listed to provide protection of the entire branch circuit.



    Question is does the partial wall end the bedroom for the purpose of electrical Arc Fault protection.
    Jim
    Jim L.,
    The code says if the bathroom is on the same branch circuit or entire branch circuit AFCI required.

    If there is a separate branch service to the other distinguishable space no AFCI required for a bathroom.

    It Might have Choked Artie But it ain't gone'a choke Stymie! Our Gang " The Pooch " (1932)
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  7. #7
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    Default Re: AFCI in attached bathroom

    Why are you calling that a bathroom? All I see is a lavatory and a mirror.

    "Bathroom. An area including a basin with one or more of the following: a toilet, a tub, or a shower." - From the NEC.

    Is there one or more of those other fixtures present?

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  8. #8
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    Default Re: AFCI in attached bathroom

    Jerry,

    Its probably one of those Jack and Jill type bathrooms. Each bedroom has that adjoining area with a sink but the 2 separate bedroom share a toilet and a tub.


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    Default Re: AFCI in attached bathroom

    Rick nailed it. The tub and toilet is through the door with a matching sink in the next bedroom.
    Any reason that that space should be included in the bedroom for the purpose of AFCI?

    Jim Luttrall
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    Jerry Peck's Avatar
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    Default Re: AFCI in attached bathroom

    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Hurst View Post
    Its probably one of those Jack and Jill type bathrooms. Each bedroom has that adjoining area with a sink but the 2 separate bedroom share a toilet and a tub.
    All of those I've seen have two doors, an actually bathroom between them with a double lav top, and the tub and the shower.

    For the case as you described it, and as Jim confirmed, that would be part of the bedroom and would require AFCI protection.

    Now, though, comes the next question: Is that a "bathroom" when arranged like that?

    It does not meet the requirements of the NEC to be "a bathroom", not without doors to the lavatory areas.

    But the IRC is less clear:

    BATHROOM GROUP.
    A group of fixtures, including or excluding a bidet, consisting of a water closet, lavatory, and bathtub or shower. Such fixtures are located together on the same floor level.

    Well ... they are on the same floor level, but to call that arrangement shown a bath"room"?


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  11. #11
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    Default Re: AFCI in attached bathroom

    Just give it a few months and when the new NEC comes out requiring all of the 15-20 amp circuits to be AFCI protected, it will be a moot point.

    Scott Patterson, ACI
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    Default Re: AFCI in attached bathroom

    Scott, I know that new requirement is coming, but most areas around hear are still on the 2003 IRC and associated NEC. So I figure it will be a long wait to get everything on AFCI.

    Jerry, I see what you are saying about the bathroom group, but there is not lav. in the tub/toilet room. So it would take the entire tub/toilet room and the adjoining lav. area to qualify as a bathroom., according to your posted definition.
    Is there any reference to a door as a requirement?
    It is pretty obvious when you see it in person that the arrangement is a bathroom, very common around here. Most times there will be a door between the lav. area and the bedroom.
    It is just for general knowledge now since I have already sent off the report on this one.

    Jim Luttrall
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    Jerry Peck's Avatar
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    Default Re: AFCI in attached bathroom

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Luttrall View Post
    Jerry, I see what you are saying about the bathroom group, but there is not lav. in the tub/toilet room. So it would take the entire tub/toilet room and the adjoining lav. area to qualify as a bathroom., according to your posted definition.
    Sort of. If you had the doors to the lavatory areas, then you can enclose the toilet room off that, within the bathroom ... as is done in many homes.

    Is there any reference to a door as a requirement?
    Not sure, but "bathrooms" and "toilet rooms" are considered to be different rooms:

    HABITABLE SPACE.
    A space in a building for living, sleeping, eating or cooking. Bathrooms, toilet rooms, closets, halls, storage or utility spaces and similar areas are not considered habitable spaces.
    R303.3 Bathrooms.
    Bathrooms, water closet compartments and other similar rooms shall be provided with aggregate glazing area in windows of not less than 3 square feet (0.3 m2), one-half of which must be openable.
    R303.4.1 Intake openings.
    Mechanical and gravity outdoor air intake openings shall be located a minimum of 10 feet (3048 mm) from any hazardous or noxious contaminant, such as vents, chimneys, plumbing vents, streets, alleys, parking lots and loading docks, except as otherwise specified in this code. Where a source of contaminant is located within 10 feet (3048 mm) of an intake opening, such opening shall be located a minimum of 2 feet (610 mm) below the contaminant source.

    For the purpose of this section, the exhaust from dwelling unit toilet rooms, bathrooms and kitchens shall not be considered as hazardous or noxious.
    R305.1 Minimum height.
    Habitable rooms, hallways, corridors, bathrooms, toilet rooms, laundry rooms and basements shall have a ceiling height of not less than 7 feet (2134 mm). The required height shall be measured from the finish floor to the lowest projection from the ceiling.

    And other such references which separate "toilet rooms" and "bathrooms".

    This is from the IRC - the electrical chapter:

    BATHROOM.
    An area, including a basin, with one or more of the following: a toilet, a tub or a shower.

    So ... is it really a "bathroom" or does that house now have one less "bathroom" than was advertised?

    I know some law suits have been filed, and won, over whether or not a "bathroom" was a "full", "3/4", or a "1/2" bath. There must be a legal definition out there somewhere.

    To me, if the bathroom does not have a privacy door, it is not a "room", and if the lavatory is not with at least one of the other fixtures (tub, water closet, shower), then it is not a "bathroom", and, if the water closet is not in the same room as the lavatory, that is a sanitary issue (accepting that toilet room could be a separate room within the bathroom) as one is supposed to wash their hands after using the toilet, which can only be done when there is a lavatory there.

    Just like if a "bedroom" does not have a door, it is not a bed"room", but a "sleeping area".



    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  14. #14
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    Default Re: AFCI in attached bathroom

    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Hurst View Post
    Jerry,

    Its probably one of those Jack and Jill type bathrooms. Each bedroom has that adjoining area with a sink but the 2 separate bedroom share a toilet and a tub.
    [quote=Jim Luttrall;21
    It is just for general knowledge now since I have already sent off the report on this one.[/quote]


    Jim L.

    So how did you write it?

    Jack&Jill Bath is considered an En-Suite Bathroom.(part of the bedroom)

    Last edited by Billy Stephens; 10-12-2007 at 11:49 AM. Reason: added def. unable to upload.
    It Might have Choked Artie But it ain't gone'a choke Stymie! Our Gang " The Pooch " (1932)
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    Default Re: AFCI in attached bathroom

    Billy, I let it go without comment. If the great minds here can't come to a consensus, how can I expect the builder and AHJ to do any better?
    Jim

    Jim Luttrall
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    Default Re: AFCI in attached bathroom

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Luttrall View Post
    If the great minds here can't come to a consensus, how can I expect the builder and AHJ to do any better?
    Jim

    Thump them in the Head with....

    Oh sorry you said builder and AHJ not reading the post with care again.

    It Might have Choked Artie But it ain't gone'a choke Stymie! Our Gang " The Pooch " (1932)
    Billy J. Stephens HI Service Memphis TN.

  17. #17
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    Default Re: AFCI in attached bathroom

    If the bathroom had a GFCI, I would be a happy camper.

    As for AFCI circuits in homes, if it is not new construction I do not note their absence.

    I'm working on some boilerplate to stick in my reports that tells my clients about them, their benifits, but that they are fairly new and many areas of the country do not even require them.

    In 20 years AFCI circuits will be the norm and those who are inspecting then will look at non AFCI circuits like we look at ungrounded systems now.

    Scott Patterson, ACI
    Spring Hill, TN
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  18. #18
    Richard Stanley's Avatar
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    Default Re: AFCI in attached bathroom

    Can a plug be both gfi and afi protected?


  19. #19
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    Default Re: AFCI in attached bathroom

    They had better be since it will be required under the newest NEC. I am guessing a AFCI breaker with GRCI outlet or maybe a combination breaker.

    Jim Luttrall
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    Dallas, Texas

  20. #20
    Richard Stanley's Avatar
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    Default Re: AFCI in attached bathroom

    Is there such a thing as a combination GF and AF breaker?
    If not, (haven't seen one yet) I don't see how a plug could be wired to 2 different circuits - 1 for GF and 1 for AF. I guess it could have 2 sets of terminals.


  21. #21
    Travis Grubbs's Avatar
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    Default Re: AFCI in attached bathroom

    Jim:

    As both, a AHJ and a home inspector, I would require that the outlets in the "lavatory area" be ARC fault protected provided that they are on the same circuit as the master bedroom. A couple of years ago I had a situation where the master bedroom had a sitting room adjoined to it (this room could only be accessed through the master bedroom). The outlets on one side of the room were connected to one of the master bedroom circuits. The outlets on the other side of the room were connected on a separate circuit, not connected to the master bedroom, and not ARC fault protected. I required that all of the outlets be ARC fault protected.

    Travis


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