The electrician that installed the circuit panel boxes in my house didn't know what AFCI's were. The new electricians looked into the panel boxes and gave them the thumbs up without the AFCI's knowing that it's a new install.

Question: It's my own house, I know they are supposed to there BUT are they proven to be helpful and should I put them in? Is it worth the disscussion that I'd have to have with the electricians and the cost of the already purchased NON-AFCI breakers?

That's scary!
Almost as scary.
I think "helpful" is the wrong word. The good folk who produce the NEC have found that they are an "effective" and worthwhile safety device that can reduce the number of house fires caused by loose connections and other poor wiring methods. Given who did your wiring, yep, I'd want them for that reason alone. Also keep in mind that when you eventually sell the house any decent inspector is going to point out that they were required and are missing.
Yes, but I'd also suggest you have a discussion with the state licensing board regarding your electrician.

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Richard Moore
Rest Assured Inspection Services - www.rainspect.com
Seattle, Washington

Yep to all three of those, Richard said it well.

"should I put them in?"

No ... you should have the electricians cover that cost ... but you should have those 'wire puller' (they do not sound like "electricians") BUY the AFCI breakers, and *YOU* should install them, I would not want those guys touching anything they do not know about, and one thing it is obvious they do not know about and that is "electrical work"!

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Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
EastWestData (www.EastWestData.com )

Gentlemen,

May I hijack this thread for a quick question?

Distance from a bathtub to an electrical outlet?

How close is too close?

Drop your hand out of the tub and touch the outlet,(not reach.)

Common sense says no.

Only thing I could find is.

IRC 2003 E.3902.11 Bathtub and shower space. A receptacle shall not be installed within a bathtub or shower space.

Thanks,

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It Might have Choked Artie But it ain't gone'a choke Stymie!
Billy J. Stephens HI Service
Memphis TN.

There are different types of electricians and they are all very capable at what they do. There are commercial construction electricians, maintenance electricians, residential electricians, and high voltage electricians to name a few. None of them know everything and this could be why the AFCI breakers got left out of the deal if you got a non-residential electrician.

I would ask the electrician to install the AFCI devices and if they refuse I would do it myself. Apparently this was not inspected and you most likely you got a deal and the AFCI breakers were not in the price so you can afford to do it yourself if needed.

If it was inspected then you need to stand your ground with the electrician and have them install them.

Just came back from Cont. Ed Electrical course. Presenter says 2008 NEC requires AFCI receptacles everywhere on interior of house except Kitchen, Baths and Garages.

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Dave

It wasn't a 'deal' type situation. The first electrician, who didn't know what AFCI's are, is a state licensed master electrician (I verified it before I hired him). and indicated that he had NUMEROUS years of experience wiring homes in the area. He did all the work himself and presented me a bill for 22K for a 2000 Sq. Ft., 3 bedroom, 2 bathroom house...and he wasn't finished with the work. I told him I was going to live there and wanted it done right...BUT it didn't get done that way...hence the problem.

The new electricians are from a 'reputable residential firm' - we didn't discuss price. I just told them I wanted the job finished and the other electrician's work corrected as needed. And to bill me at the end of each week instead of handing me a GIGANTIC bill at the end. I don't know about the guy's doing the work - but the firm was recommended.

Keep in mind that it is the general consensus of all electricians in the area and the city inspectors that having the grounds/nuetrals in the garage panels separated is no big issue. And, believe it or not, they have only been doing that in this area for the past 7 or 8 years.

That's the main reason that it's like pulling teeth to get them to do it and it'll probably be a few years before they get onto the AFCI band wagon.

Nevertheless, I'd prefer to have it done like it's supposed to be done.

Al,

Pay no attention to James a lot of us Don't.

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It Might have Choked Artie But it ain't gone'a choke Stymie!
Billy J. Stephens HI Service
Memphis TN.

Hey Billy...I'm making over $150K a year...how about you? This is a hobby for me....how about you?

BTW Billy ....you are a idiot who follows other peoples post and makes stupid comments. You need some ideas of your own sometimes.

Hey Billy I would ignore James too.

AFCI protection is only required for new residential units. You might check with local jurisdiction regarding their installation. And remember the NEC is not retroactive so the installation of AFCI breakers would conincide with the construction date of your home.
I do question the professionalism of your electrician since there has a been a great about of information in the industry concerning AFCI breakers and there installation.

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James,

I'm a Professional Home Inspector. ( It's not a hobby for me.)

If you call deceiving the Public ( Being a Liar ) making $.

I hope you are hanging onto all those Dollars for Lawyer's and Fines, when they Catch up with you. ( You'll need that and more.)

At least I'm a Licensed Idiot. TN # 592 MS # 0418.( UNLIKE YOU )

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It Might have Choked Artie But it ain't gone'a choke Stymie!
Billy J. Stephens HI Service
Memphis TN.

Would you agree that if an electrician *IS* doing *electrical work* that the *electrician* should know WTF they are doing ... OR NOT DO IT?

There is absolutely NO EXCUSE (if you were offering one) for those "non"-electricians wiring that like they did.

If they are 'out-of-their-field' as you are putting it, then they should not be doing the work.

If they are not 'out-of-their-field' they should know what they are doing.

That said ... "Master Electricians" are not licensed in "There are commercial construction electricians, maintenance electricians, residential electricians, and high voltage electricians to name a few.", they are licensed to perform ANY AND ALL electrical work.

They may "specialize" in certain fields, but they are 'not allowed to be ignorant' of other electrical fields.

Not if they are licensed.

There is no excuse, no excuses should be offered or attempted. That just plain 'looks silly'.

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Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
EastWestData (www.EastWestData.com )

Nope.

AFCI protection is required for (bold is mine): All 120-volt, single phase, 15- and 20-ampere branch circuits supplying outlets installed in dwelling unit family rooms, dining rooms, living rooms, parlors, libraries, dens, bedrooms, sunrooms, recreation rooms, closets, hallways, or similar rooms or areas shall be protected by a listed arc-fault circuit interrupter, combination-type, installed to provide protection of the branch circuit.

I don't see the word "new" in there. If the work is permitted and is being done, the code covers it.

If the work is to the extent described (gutted to the studs and block walls) then this is a major remodeling job and, in most locations, spending that much money requires not only "all new work" but much or most of "the old work" to meet current code.

Yes, that varies from AHJ to AHJ, but when a house is gutted like that, most consider it as needing to meet current requirements.

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Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
EastWestData (www.EastWestData.com )

The work, if permit issued (?), should comply with current adopted code jurisdiction. (city ?). AFCI installation has been in effect, to some degree, since the '99 NEC. Minimum in Texas is IRC 2000 - last I knew. I don't know about Victoria. Are you in Victoria city limits? I haven't seen any mention of your local electrical code inspectors. Are they drive by types like here?

This house is not in the city limits and not subject to inspection by them, HOWEVER, the city, a town of 70K people, doesn't, according to both the largest electrical contractor in town and the electrical supply house, require AFCI's to be installed - in fact, they don't even have them in in stock and have to order them if I want them.

He, another master electrician who owns the supply house, says that the 2005 code, which the city has decided to follow, ONLY requires AFCI in multi-family bedrooms and not single-family. And he's on the city's 'electrical board'. He say's it's been MIS-interpreted allot - but he's read it and he's got the correct interpretation. He also indicated that "they were a waste of money and only protect you if you were to drive a nail into a wire while hanging a picture or something".

SO, I guess the problem is more widespread here than the individual electricians.

Nevertheless, I am ordering AFCI's for most of my circuits - except the bathrooms. I don't know if they should be installed in the bathrooms or not - would they interfere with the function of GFCI outlets?

Al:

Those are most likely Texas electricians that you hired. They're the ones that James left off his list. They're the dog-butt stupid electricians.

In fact the electricians in Texas are so freaking stupid that the state legislature passed a bill last year allowing plumbers to do some electrical work, just to take some of the load off our stupid electricians.

Problem is that the plumbers here are not bright bulbs either.

Install the breakers yourself - that is, if you're not a Texas plumber and after you turn of the main of course. . .

Aaron

This is neither the time, nor the place, to bring up the entire AFCI fracas. Yet, there are a few other points to consider:

First, there are many, many places that operate either under older editions of the NEC, or have specifically declined to accept the AFCI requirements. A home in such a place need not have them ... at all. (Whether they're a good idea ia a whole different discussion).

Second, even under the 08 NEC, I believe they overlooked the stairways - which need neither GFCI nor AFCI protection. (oops!)

Third, the 08 NEC has 'eased' restrictions on the use of AFCI devices. Therefor, we may no longer assume that AFCI's will be in the panels. This, of course, has obvious implications for places with older panels.

Finally ... even if I were a fan of AFCI's, I'd wait a bit. The AFCI required by the 08 code is NOT the AFCI we've been using these past few years. Indeed, this might be more of an inspection issue in a few years - the presence of 'simple' AFCI's in panels that should have used 'combination' types. (I see many a migraine in the future from this detail).

AFCIs not required where GFCIs are required.
Siemens has the new combination AFCIs on the market.

Sounds like you are trying to do it right - in spite of the learned locals. Good for you.

This was from a post earlier today
Award-Winning Combination Type Arc Fault Circuit Interrupter from Siemens is Now Available