Washer Machine outlet, GFCI protected? - InspectionNews

Tim Moreira · #1 (**permalink**) 02-06-2008, 04:39 PM

Hi gang,

Laundry sink about two feet away from washing machine outlet. It is not GFCI protected. I would think it should be due to the proximity of the sink.

Agreed?

Jerry Peck · #2 (**permalink**) 02-06-2008, 04:53 PM

Tim,

Long time no hear from you much. Father/father-in-law still there?

From the 2008 NEC:
- 210.8 Ground-Fault Circuit-Interrupter Protection for Personnel.
- - (A) Dwelling Units. All 125-volt, single-phase, 15- and 20-ampere receptacles installed in the locations specified in (1) through (8) shall have ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection for personnel.
- - - (7) Laundry, utility, and wet bar sinks — where the receptacles are installed within 1.8 m (6 ft) of the outside edge of the sink.

Do not find any exception for laundry equipment (went back several code editions), and I did not expect to find any exception either. If the laundry equipment trips the GFCI, the laundry equipment needs to be checked and repaired.

Tim Moreira · #3 (**permalink**) 02-06-2008, 05:00 PM

Hi Jerry and everyone else,

Good to hear from you. Yes dad is still here with me but only for another week. He is buying a double wide in the Hudson area about twenty minutes north of me.

It's been a l-o-n-g nine months. I could have had a baby by now.

Business has been very s-l-o-w my way.

Looking forward to getting back into the swing of things.

I figured as much on the code reference but my office is still in shambles.

Thank you for the clarification.

Hope all is well with everyone.

Looking forward to getting back here soon.

Thank you,

Tim

Rick Hurst · #4 (**permalink**) 02-06-2008, 05:03 PM

Should be being within 6ft. but may be a nuisance problem.

Its better to be a nuisance than be dead though.

rick

Rick Hurst · #5 (**permalink**) 02-06-2008, 05:07 PM

Tim,

Glad to have you back on board.

Your a good man to be taking care of your dad as you have.

My respect to you and best wishes to your DAD.

Hope business picks up well for you soon.

rick

Richard Rushing · #6 (**permalink**) 02-06-2008, 05:37 PM

Hey Tim,

Good to hear from you again...

I feel your pain. I've got my M-I-L upstairs to deal with. Things get pretty goofy at times... for instance, we're talking a 76 year old with restless-leg-syndrome. To top it off, she just had a hip-replacement and walks with a limp. Well, when the RLS kicks in and the hip flares up, it's like a person with tourettes syndrome walking on their hands.

Welcome back Kott(er)a

Rich

Rick Hurst · #7 (**permalink**) 02-06-2008, 05:46 PM

She 76

Has leg problems

Recent hip replacement

Living upstairs

What a son-in-law.

Priceless!

Jerry Peck · #8 (**permalink**) 02-06-2008, 06:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick Hurst

but may be a nuisance problem.

Should not be a nuisance trip problem if the appliance is within the last 15-20 years old. Older ones, ... well, typically clothes washers don't last that long ... but older ones might cause tripping of the GFCI, in which case it is not time to remove the GFCI, it is time to replace the appliance.

Frank Bombardiere · #9 (**permalink**) 02-06-2008, 06:39 PM

Not saying it is right, but none of the washer outlets here are GFCI protected. New or old construction, within 6 ft of sink or not. They typically have an outlet near the sink that is GFCI but the one for the washer never is. They must approve it that way here as I always check and they never are. Do many of you find them to be GFCI protected?

Richard Rushing · #10 (**permalink**) 02-06-2008, 07:45 PM

Rick,

Most of my description of her above was an embellishment for effect. She does real well and is quite dancer

. But, she does occupy the 2000+ sq ft upstairs and loves it.

Rich

Paul Kondzich · #11 (**permalink**) 02-06-2008, 10:06 PM

Just a question here, not debating. I know you dont want a refrigerator on a GFCI because the start up load may trip the GFCI. But when I think about it I have seen a refrigerator within 6 feet of a water source. So is the reasoning that a washer (which I assume could draw a similar load when the motor starts) does not contain perishables so it is ok. I also understand that a refrigerator "should" be on a dedicated circuit, and a 120 V clothes washer may not be. I dont need a bunch of codes throw my way but when I thought about this situation they seem kind of similar. If the answer is in the code throw them at me. Thanks for all the great knowedge base here...

John Arnold · #12 (**permalink**) 02-07-2008, 03:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Kondzich

...I know you dont want a refrigerator on a GFCI because the start up load may trip the GFCI. ...

Paul - Jerry Peck has been telling us for a while that this is no longer the case. As he said a few posts ago in this thread: "Should not be a nuisance trip problem if the appliance is within the last 15-20 years old." Modern appliances are designed to more stringent standards. If the refrigerator trips the GFCI, then there is something wrong that needs to be repaired. It's not just "nuisance".

Richard Moore · #13 (**permalink**) 02-07-2008, 03:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Moreira

Hi gang,

Laundry sink about two feet away from washing machine outlet. It is not GFCI protected. I would think it should be due to the proximity of the sink.

Agreed?

As Jerry stated, the 2008 NEC now covers this without exceptions...- - - (7) Laundry, utility, and wet bar sinks — where the receptacles are installed within 1.8 m (6 ft) of the outside edge of the sink.

However (and I'll ask Jerry to check me on this) prior to 2008 (2005?) the 6ft rule was only for wet bar sinks (and then earlier than that, for kitchen sinks). I don't believe there was a rule prior to 2008 that actually covered laundries or laundry sinks. The upshot, as far as I can determine, is that in an existing home the washer receptacle (or any other receptacle) within 6ft of a laundry sink was not required by the NEC to be a GFCI, unless the room also happens to be a bathroom.

So...definitely a good idea to recommend a GFCI as an inexpensive saftey upgrade but it's probably not a "mandatory" repair you could defend with code.

Michael Thomas · #14 (**permalink**) 02-07-2008, 05:32 AM

From http://www.ecmweb.com/mag/705ecmCBpic2.jpg:

Richard Moore · #15 (**permalink**) 02-07-2008, 11:44 AM

Thanks Michael,

Yep, my bad.
I only had the 2002 and 2008 versions on hand when I posted.
Those changes were indeed made in the 2005 NEC and not 2008.

Quote:

GFCI Requirements Expand in 2005 NEC
......
Section 210.8(A)(7), which formerly covered GFCI protection for 15- and 20-ampere receptacles serving wet bar countertops and located within six feet of the wet bar countertop, has been revised. This subsection has been expanded to cover 15- and 20-ampere, 125-volt receptacles within six feet of the outside edge of dwelling-unit laundry sinks, utility sinks and wet bar sinks at any height. Since this section now covers laundry sinks and utility sinks, as well as wet bar sinks, the reference to countertops has been deleted. This means any 15- and 20-ampere, 125-volt, single-phase receptacle within six feet of these sinks must be GFCI protected. This would apply to receptacles located from the floor level up to six feet above the sink, including receptacles mounted in the ceiling but still located within the six-foot dimension from the edge of a counter-mounted laundry, utility or wet bar sink.

So..."required" after 2005, recommended "upgrade" for older homes.

Jerry Peck · #16 (**permalink**) 02-07-2008, 02:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Kondzich

I know you dont want a refrigerator on a GFCI because the start up load may trip the GFCI.

Side stepping the other part of that answer which John addressed regarding 'refrigerator on GFCI', but addressing 'the reason' you gave ...

"The start up load" is not going to trip a GFCI. A GFCI does not care if there is 1 amp or 50 amps through the GFCI (provided, of course) that the GFCI can handle the current, and you can get 100 amp rated GFCIs), the GFCI *ONLY* cares that *THE SAME AMOUNT* of current, whatever that amount of current is, goes through both the neutral and the hot, within 5 ma of each other, that is.

[quote]But when I think about it I have seen a refrigerator within 6 feet of a water source.[/q]

You should have forgotten about that 6 foot rule 10 years ago or more, and, besides, it was only for "receptacles which serve the countertop", and refrigerator receptacles *do not serve the countertop*.

Jim Robinson · #17 (**permalink**) 02-07-2008, 03:09 PM

I've had two apartments with a washing machine in each that was protected by a GFCI. I haven't heard of either of them tripping in the past two years, and the washing machines were older machines in both of them. I have a third apartment that will now have the washing machine and fridge on a GFCI protected receptacle. I'll let you know if it trips, but so far it hasn't.

The wiring is 2 wire no ground, that's why they are on GFCI circuits.

Jerry Peck · #18 (**permalink**) 02-07-2008, 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Robinson

I have a third apartment that will now have the washing machine and fridge on a GFCI protected receptacle. I'll let you know if it trips, but so far it hasn't.

The wiring is 2 wire no ground, that's why they are on GFCI circuits.

Jim,

Put one of those long lasting night lights in the refrigerator receptacle and tell your tenant to glance at the darkness behind the refrigerator and, if they is light, it is okay, but if it is dark, then the GFCI has likely tripped and they need to check their food, then reset the GFCI ... and report to you that it tripped so you can check it out.

Jim Robinson · #19 (**permalink**) 02-07-2008, 03:30 PM

It will shut off the microwave clock on the counter, but that's a good idea also. Maybe there is some type of alarm I can plug in on the other half of the receptacle that will sound if the power goes off to the receptacle. Might save me a headache or two.