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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 04-12-2008, 11:22 AM
David Banks David Banks is offline
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Loose neutral.
For once I found a downstream panel wired correctly. Neutrals isolated, no double taps. But then this caught my eye. Loose neutral resting against panel and grounding bus bar. There goes the isolation issue out the door but I am curios is this a potential safety issue as far as energizing the panel?
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Old 04-12-2008, 12:03 PM
John Arnold John Arnold is online now
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Re: Loose neutral.
Depends on where that neutral goes, doesn't it? Is the black wire next to it from the same circuit? Regardless, it/they have to be dealt with. But if there's neutral current on the white one, then it could energize the panel.
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Old 04-13-2008, 04:17 PM
Steve Brooks Steve Brooks is offline
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Re: Loose neutral.
Hereabouts our panels need to be bonded to the grounding wire...The neutral that you displayed in your photo can electrify the panel if it's not bonded.
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Old 04-13-2008, 06:20 PM
Jerry Peck Jerry Peck is online now
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Re: Loose neutral.
Looks like an improperly abandoned circuit, with "improperly" being the key word.

That black (probably really a dark green) screw is bonding that grounding terminal bar to the enclosure.
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Old 04-13-2008, 07:10 PM
Steve Brooks Steve Brooks is offline
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Re: Loose neutral.
Jerry, What I was pointing out is the panel itself should be bonded to the grounding electrode conductor (To the water pipe, or ground rod). This effectively prevents the panel from ever being electrified. That was the question.
As for it being an abandoned wire inside the panel, that's a different finding, seperate from the current question.
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Old 04-14-2008, 07:43 AM
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John Steinke John Steinke is offline
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Re: Loose neutral.
I'd be astonished if that white wire was capable of "energizing" the panel.

First, because the bottom of the pic looks like there is a bonding strap installed.

Second .... my best guess is that the white wire is not in use, being an extra wire in a cable serving a 240v circuit. Or, with the neighboring black wire, a cable not part of any circuit at this time.
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Old 04-14-2008, 07:47 AM
John Arnold John Arnold is online now
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Re: Loose neutral.
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Steinke View Post
I'd be astonished if that white wire was capable of "energizing" the panel...
John - Your quotes around the word "energizing" suggest you don't like the term. If so, is there another word you prefer? I'm just curious, not criticizing. I use "energizing" or "energized" but my mind is open.
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Old 04-14-2008, 12:16 PM
Jerry Peck Jerry Peck is online now
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Re: Loose neutral.
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Originally Posted by Steve Brooks View Post
Jerry, What I was pointing out is the panel itself should be bonded to the grounding electrode conductor (To the water pipe, or ground rod). This effectively prevents the panel from ever being electrified. That was the question.
As for it being an abandoned wire inside the panel, that's a different finding, seperate from the current question.
Steve,

Because this is, according to David, a "downstream panel", it would be connected with an equipment grounding conductor, not to the grounding electrode conductor, water pipe or ground rod. Yes, the 'equipment grounding conductor' does need to go back to the service equipment, and thus back to the grounding electrode conductor, etc., it will not be connected to them, as is my take on what you said.

There just is not enough of the panel in that photo to show how this is "grounded".
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Old 04-14-2008, 12:24 PM
David Banks David Banks is offline
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Re: Loose neutral.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
Steve,

Because this is, according to David, a "downstream panel", it would be connected with an equipment grounding conductor, not to the grounding electrode conductor, water pipe or ground rod. Yes, the 'equipment grounding conductor' does need to go back to the service equipment, and thus back to the grounding electrode conductor, etc., it will not be connected to them, as is my take on what you said.

There just is not enough of the panel in that photo to show how this is "grounded".
Panel View.
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File Type: jpg Condo panel.jpg (26.5 KB, 43 views)
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Old 04-14-2008, 12:47 PM
Jerry Peck Jerry Peck is online now
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Re: Loose neutral.
Dave,

I can't tell from that photo, is that fed in metallic conduit, or is that NM cable as the feeders?

I don't see a ground coming in with the feeders, unless it is in metallic conduit.

Also, that ground terminal bar looks to be connected back to the neutral terminal bar with a bare metal bar, making this panel "Suitable for Service Equipment ONLY", i.e., making it NOT suitable for non-service equipment.

There is no main in that panel, right? You said it was a downstream panel in the first post, that means the main is upstream at the service equipment, right?

Have any more photos of that panel? It's starting to look 'not real good' from what we've seen and discussed *so far*.
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Old 04-14-2008, 01:09 PM
David Banks David Banks is offline
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Re: Loose neutral.
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Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
Dave,

I can't tell from that photo, is that fed in metallic conduit, or is that NM cable as the feeders?

Metallic conduit. You can see at main/meter pic.

I don't see a ground coming in with the feeders, unless it is in metallic conduit.

Metallic conduit.

Also, that ground terminal bar looks to be connected back to the neutral terminal bar with a bare metal bar, making this panel "Suitable for Service Equipment ONLY", i.e., making it NOT suitable for non-service equipment.

If you look closely the bar ends on the left before the breakers. Attached is panel label Appears to be suitable for both Service Panel and panel if I am reading it correctly.

There is no main in that panel, right? You said it was a downstream panel in the first post, that means the main is upstream at the service equipment, right?

Right.

Have any more photos of that panel? It's starting to look 'not real good' from what we've seen and discussed *so far*.
Pics attached. What do you think?
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Main meter.jpg (43.7 KB, 29 views)
File Type: jpg Neutral bar.jpg (30.5 KB, 30 views)
File Type: jpg Panel label.jpg (22.3 KB, 29 views)
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Old 04-14-2008, 01:15 PM
David Banks David Banks is offline
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Re: Loose neutral.
After posting I realized you can not read panel label.
Large letters say. " Suitable for use as Service Equipment when main breaker is installed. I take this as meaning can be used for both Service Equipment and downstream panel if done properly.
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Old 04-14-2008, 01:25 PM
Jerry Peck Jerry Peck is online now
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Re: Loose neutral.
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Banks View Post
Large letters say. " Suitable for use as Service Equipment when main breaker is installed. I take this as meaning can be used for both Service Equipment and downstream panel if done properly.
Sounds like it can be, but ...

In the second photo you posted, of the panel with the cover off, the metal bus (bar) which goes from the equipment grounds on the left to the neutrals on the right, is there a bond screw through the neutral terminal bar into that metal bar?

If not, than it might be okay (look closely to make sure the neutral terminal bar is isolated from ground).

If yes, then look closely, it is likely that if that bond screw was removed that the neutral would be isolated from ground.

I can't tell from the photo.

When used as "Suitable for use as Service Equipment when main breaker is installed.", I'm guessing there will be an additional requirement to install a bonding jumper (typically a screw into that bar) to bond the neutral terminal bar to ground. Without that bonding screw, you are probably okay - look closely to make sure.
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Old 04-14-2008, 02:14 PM
David Banks David Banks is offline
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Re: Loose neutral.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
Sounds like it can be, but ...

In the second photo you posted, of the panel with the cover off, the metal bus (bar) which goes from the equipment grounds on the left to the neutrals on the right, is there a bond screw through the neutral terminal bar into that metal bar?

No screw. There is a strap attached to metal bar with screw into panel but not to neutral bus.

If not, than it might be okay (look closely to make sure the neutral terminal bar is isolated from ground).

It is isolated. See plastic isolation stand.

If yes, then look closely, it is likely that if that bond screw was removed that the neutral would be isolated from ground.

I can't tell from the photo.

When used as "Suitable for use as Service Equipment when main breaker is installed.", I'm guessing there will be an additional requirement to install a bonding jumper (typically a screw into that bar) to bond the neutral terminal bar to ground. Without that bonding screw, you are probably okay - look closely to make sure.
It goes on to tell how to bond neutral to enclosure.
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Old 04-14-2008, 02:56 PM
Matthew Barnicle Matthew Barnicle is offline
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Re: Loose neutral.
Here is another example of a loose neutral. Notice the lug is backed out further than the rest and the wire is burned. This would never trip the breaker because it only heats up at the loose connection, not at the breaker - scary to think this could happen at any junction box or splice with a loose connection and not trip a breaker. Maybe an AFCI would trip this condition, I don't know.
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File Type: jpg Copy of 102_5002.jpg (49.6 KB, 28 views)
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Old 04-14-2008, 03:00 PM
David Banks David Banks is offline
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Re: Loose neutral.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
Sounds like it can be, but ...

In the second photo you posted, of the panel with the cover off, the metal bus (bar) which goes from the equipment grounds on the left to the neutrals on the right, is there a bond screw through the neutral terminal bar into that metal bar?

If not, than it might be okay (look closely to make sure the neutral terminal bar is isolated from ground).

If yes, then look closely, it is likely that if that bond screw was removed that the neutral would be isolated from ground.

I can't tell from the photo.

When used as "Suitable for use as Service Equipment when main breaker is installed.", I'm guessing there will be an additional requirement to install a bonding jumper (typically a screw into that bar) to bond the neutral terminal bar to ground. Without that bonding screw, you are probably okay - look closely to make sure.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew Barnicle View Post
Here is another example of a loose neutral. Notice the lug is backed out further than the rest and the wire is burned. This would never trip the breaker because it only heats up at the loose connection, not at the breaker - scary to think this could happen at any junction box or splice with a loose connection and not trip a breaker. Maybe an AFCI would trip this condition, I don't know.
There is also a cut in insulation 4 neutrals down.
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Old 04-14-2008, 06:06 PM
Steve Brooks Steve Brooks is offline
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Re: Loose neutral.
Jerry, you are correct, I missed Dave's mention of it being a sub panel...
Dave, if the panel is connected all the way to the main panel via metal conduit, then you're good to go...But if not, then this panel is subject to be electrified, and is dangerous.
(Segway: abandoned wires are not permitted inside a panel.)
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Old 04-14-2008, 06:28 PM
John Arnold John Arnold is online now
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Re: Loose neutral.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Brooks View Post
(Segway: abandoned wires are not permitted inside a panel.)
I don't see how you could mean Segway, one of those two wheeled doo-hickies that GWB fell off of, so you must mean segue, ...I guess.
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Old 04-14-2008, 06:29 PM
Steve Brooks Steve Brooks is offline
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Re: Loose neutral.
Dave,
Looks like an apartment building setup, with BX cables to each sub panel. That would mean each panel is grounded. The sub panels can't be electrified, they're safe.
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Old 04-15-2008, 06:30 AM