Builder not to happy with me today.(See HVAC also)
Electrician came up from other unit. Says he will clean it up. Is that ok?
No can do!

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Dave

Let the arguing begin.

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The NEC code (as taken from the IRC) states in E3304.6 Integrity of electrical equipment.
Internal parts of electrical equipment, including bus bars, wiring terminals, insulators and other surfaces, shall not be damaged or contaminated by foreign materials such as paint, plaster, cleaners or abrasives, and corrosive residues. There shall not be any damaged parts that might adversely affect safe operation or mechanical strength of the equipment such as parts that are broken; bent; cut; deteriorated by corrosion, chemical action, or overheating. Foreign debris shall be removed from equipment.

I read that to say it would need to to be replaced since it states no cleaners can be used.

Dick W. says he can clean them out without replacing the panel.

Sorry Dick, but the electricians around here are too lazy to do so. All of them we dealt with recommend replacement of the panel. I think the pay is better also.

Yeah, I know its not good for the poor ole seller, but you've got to remember myself and my client didn't spray the paint in the panel either.

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Rick Hurst_Home Works Inspection Co_Rockwall TX
In the words of Mike Tyson.... "Everyone has a plan until they get hit inda mouf"

If the builder wants to be unhappy with anybody, it should be the dumbass with the runaway sprayer. As for whether or not cleaning the panel is considered OK, maybe you should make a call to the panel box manufacturer and get their take whether or not cleaning the interior is acceptable.

There is not a code inspector in my area that would say that panel needs to be replaced. Since this is a new installation they have the final say and unless you are a licensed electrcian you have no valid opinion in their eyes. I have heard "Who are you?" more than once. I get a lot more repect being a licensed electrcian, plumber , and mechancial contractor than I did when they thought I was just a home inspector. Clean the panel up properly and there is no problem.

No where in the code quote below does it say that a panel can not be cleaned or repaired. As a matter of fact it says "Foreign debris shall be removed from equipment."

CODE QUOTE:
Internal parts of electrical equipment, including bus bars, wiring terminals, insulators and other surfaces, shall not be damaged or contaminated by foreign materials such as paint, plaster, cleaners or abrasives, and corrosive residues. There shall not be any damaged parts that might adversely affect safe operation or mechanical strength of the equipment such as parts that are broken; bent; cut; deteriorated by corrosion, chemical action, or overheating. Foreign debris shall be removed from equipment.
CODE QUOTE END


BTW...You guys can beat on me all you want...I don't reall care. But some of the post are fun to read...thanks for the chuckles...

Dick,

You had stated in a previous thread that if they gave you 400 bucks and two hours, you could clean it good as new.

You never answered the question from the last thread months ago which is:

"What would you use to clean that panel with?"

Just wondering.

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Tim Moreira
Suncoast Home Inspections
Suncoasthomeinspections@yahoo.com

Goop and a rag....

Dick said: "There is not a code inspector in my area that would say that panel needs to be replaced. Since this is a new installation they have the final say"

That is the way *IT USED TO BE* in South Florida, then several of us private inspectors began asking questions about that, and, over a period of about 3-5 years, the opinions changed from 'it's okay as it is', to 'clean it up', to 'the subcontractors need to be protecting them better, replace it, it will not happen many more times', and, know what, the builders where all over the sub contractor to protect the panels, recessed lights, a/c boots, EVERYTHING started getting protected.

Yeah, make them change out a couple of panels and you can bet that the electrician MADE DANG SURE they protected their panels, and that they would report removed protective covers to the builder so THEY (the electrical contractor) *did not* have to cover the cost of replacing the panels, the painter or whomever did. THEY paid once or twice and THEY learned quickly that you either: a) leave the protective cover in place, of, b) if the protective cover is not there, make sure to cover it anyway with SOMETHING, a drop cloth, SOMETHING to keep the paint out of it.

"and unless you are a licensed electrcian you have no valid opinion in their eyes."

That used to be the opinion down there, but that changed when they realized we were not out to find what they missed, but to 'help them' and learn from them. I bet that would work in other places too.

"I have heard "Who are you?" more than once. I get a lot more repect being a licensed electrcian, plumber , and mechancial contractor than I did when they thought I was just a home inspector."

We also got a lot more respect when they found out that we were licensed and certified inspectors, as many of us were.

"Clean the panel up properly and there is no problem."

The problem, as Tim brought back up, is that YOU *say* YOU can clean a panel, yet have not told us *HOW* you would do it and not violate the NEC.

AS A LICENSED electrical contractor, what you say holds less and less weight with us when you continue to say '*I* can violate the code by doing such-and-such, but that's okay' but then try to tell US that we are wrong.

"No where in the code quote below does it say that a panel can not be cleaned or repaired. As a matter of fact it says "Foreign debris shall be removed from equipment." "

I will bold it for you. It does not say "the panel cannot be cleaned" it just says HOW NOT TO DO IT.

CODE QUOTE:
Internal parts of electrical equipment, including bus bars, wiring terminals, insulators and other surfaces, shall not be damaged or contaminated by foreign materials such as paint, plaster, cleaners or abrasives, and corrosive residues. There shall not be any damaged parts that might adversely affect safe operation or mechanical strength of the equipment such as parts that are broken; bent; cut; deteriorated by corrosion, chemical action, or overheating. Foreign debris shall be removed from equipment.
CODE QUOTE END

Now, we are all ears waiting for you to tell us HOW you would clean the panel and NOT violate the code, you are NOT allowed to use "cleaners or abrasives" (unless they are listed for that use), I have never found any cleaners or abrasives listed for use for cleaning an electrical panel, maybe you have?

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Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )

The product is called "Groomer's Goop". It is not UL listed but it does a good job to remove latex paint. I didn't read your response... I saw it was you so what waste my time!

[quote=I saw it was you so what waste my time! [/QUOTE]

Man what a cheep way out.

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"A woman is only a woman, but a good cigar is a smoke".
Kipling
www.aahomeinspectionsllc.com

I googled "Groomer's Goop" as Dick mentioned to see what it was as I've never heard of it. Goop yeah. Groomer's goop, NO.

It is a pet grooming product for cleaning pets.

Dick, I would think someone as yourself would pull out a more professional product for use other than a pet cleaner.

I was always taught to read the label on everything. No where on that product I bet does it state to use as a paint remover or more important in a electrical panel.

Why not just blast off the paint, say with some kitty litter?

Rick

It is very mild and does a good job...try it before you trash a good panel. Let us know how your test goes...

Never tried kitty litter for panel cleaning...don't see how that could work..WD-40 does a good job though but it does get all the metal all slick and stuff...is that damage?

You tell us.

CODE QUOTE:
Internal parts of electrical equipment, including bus bars, wiring terminals, insulators and other surfaces, shall not be damaged or contaminated by foreign materials such as paint, plaster, cleaners or abrasives, and corrosive residues. There shall not be any damaged parts that might adversely affect safe operation or mechanical strength of the equipment such as parts that are broken; bent; cut; deteriorated by corrosion, chemical action, or overheating. Foreign debris shall be removed from equipment.
CODE QUOTE END

WD-40 is a cleaner/solvent/lubricant which leaves a residue behind, it therefore leaves "contamination" and "foreign debris" behind.

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Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )

After WD-40 dries, it attracts dust quicker than a mini-blind. Not great for the inside of a panel.

It is great for fishing though. Spray a little on your lure and the fish go nuts for its. Especially sand-bass.

Rick

Here’s the code quote in question….

"Internal parts of electrical equipment, including bus bars, wiring terminals, insulators and other surfaces, shall not be damaged or contaminated by foreign materials such as paint, plaster, cleaners or abrasives, and corrosive residues. There shall not be any damaged parts that might adversely affect safe operation or mechanical strength of the equipment such as parts that are broken; bent; cut; deteriorated by corrosion, chemical action, or overheating. Foreign debris shall be removed from equipment."

OK,

For the sake of clarity (as well as argument), let’s parse the above code language and distill it down to its most basic and salient point as it pertains to the matter at hand.

"Internal parts of electrical equipment…shall not be damaged or contaminated by…cleaners or abrasives…"

Now wipe your brow and lets move on,

Does the above say that one shall not use "cleaners or abrasives" on electrical equipment or does it merely say that the electrical equipment shall not be "damaged" or "contaminated" by same? Does that distintion even matter?

If you do happen to use a cleaner or abrasive during an attempt to remove "foreign debris" from electrical equipment then the trick is to use something that does not damage the electrical equipment being cleaned and to make sure that nothing is left behind after the cleaning proces that can be construed as "foreign debris".

I have no comment on Dick Whitfieild's particular method of using "Groomers goop" since I have no personal experience concerning that particular product or how it works.

Perhaps Dick Whitfield or Martha Stuart knows something about how to successfully remove lipstick from my collar and paint from the interior of my electrical service equipment that I have not heard of? Neither is beyond the realm of possibilities I might add.

While entirely possible, it remains news to me and I will continue to rely on my visual inspection + professional judement concerning electrical panels I encounter to determine if they are adequate for the purpose.

A recent phone call:

Hello, my name is Joe NEC from the NFPA,how may I help you?

Trician: I am a qualerfied electrician and and I was wonderin if I could use "Groomers Goop", it's a pet gromin product don'tcha know, to clean the inside of an electrical panel that was painted?

Joe: Yea, sure, we use it here all the time. We clean everything with it! My wife is shinin up the tires on the old Chrysler as we speak!

Trician: It doesn't violate the NEC?

Joe: The Chrysler?

Trician: No, using Groomers Goop to clean paint off a panel!

Joe: Shoot, who reads the NEC anyway! Once the cover is on, nobody will know! Anything else? I have to go wax my dog!

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Eric Van De Ven Magnum Inspections Inc. (954) 340-6615
www.magnuminspections.com
I still get paid to be suspicious when I got nothing to be suspicious about!

Phillip said "Does the above say that one shall not use "cleaners or abrasives" on electrical equipment or does it merely say that the electrical equipment shall not be "damaged" or "contaminated" by same? Does that distintion even matter?"

Yes, it does matter (but you knew that).

I know of no abrasive which does not "damage", even to a very minor degree, a surface it is rubbed on.

Regarding cleaners, the only "cleaner" I know of which does not leave a residue (but I swear it has when I've used it) is 'brake cleaner'. I'm not sure that spraying brake cleaner on the internal parts of an electrical panel is the same as spraying it on brake parts. I must admit, though, that when I used brake cleaner, I never looked to see it is was listed for use on electrical parts.

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Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )

BrakeKleen would remove the paint, however, the removed paint would now be debris which would have to be removed. BrakeKleen is also used in dry cleaning, or was.

According to the can, break cleaner is an extra strength cleaning formula designed specifically to remove brake fluid, grease, oil, and other contamination from all types of brake assemblies.

Didn't see anything on there about electric or paint.

I think it must be some type of an abrasive. Use it on your hands and you will know what I mean!

In any event, the purpose of the code is not to allow any foreign materials in the panel. All that should be there is wires and breakers.

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Eric Van De Ven Magnum Inspections Inc. (954) 340-6615
www.magnuminspections.com
I still get paid to be suspicious when I got nothing to be suspicious about!

Jerry P,

Brake cleaner? Oh please…There is no different than Dick W’s generic brand of "pseudo science" using some kind of "goop".

You of all people know better than that!