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  1. #1
    David Banks's Avatar
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    Default NEC codes please

    Jerry. Could you post the code for not allowing double tapped breakers. Not the 2 neutral or neutrals grounds under one termination screw. Although if you want to post them all I will take them.
    Also do you have the code for Abandoned wires hanging loose with exposed ends that should be properly terminated inside of panel.
    Owners telling my client that panel is new and permit was obtained and was inspected.
    The Electrician cut the neutral for the Electric water heater and another circuit. Also double and triple tapped breakers.

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  2. #2
    Ted Menelly's Avatar
    Ted Menelly is offline Member
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    Default Re: NEC codes please

    Code is a wonderful thing but why is your client talking to the seller? No Realtor involved?

    If they are talking to each other suggest to your client to call the city inspector or any electrician and your client will know the seller is full of crap.

    I know, tell them the code to prove yourself. Fact is their is not any city electric inspector that would pass this panel the way it is. Their or probably no licensed electricians that would have done that. That looks plain and simple like the home owners work.

    Unfortunately we are not code inspectors but inspect on code. Your license and training tells you with out a doubt that this is not right and should be corrected.

    A city official would just put a tag on it or the permit marked failed and more than likely not give the reason or code. Your integrity and intelligence are being questioned and demeaned by the seller. They are quite frankly the liars and are saying your are and you do not know what you are talking about.

    You in fact did your job and it is the realtor or your clients job to follow up with your suggestions.

    Sorry, some folks just piss me off and then I go off.

    Ted Menelly, Castle Home Inspection Services
    www.inspectmycastle.com
    Fort Worth, Keller, Southlake, Plano, Flower Mound, DFW, TX

  3. #3
    Richard Moore's Avatar
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    Default Re: NEC codes please

    NEC 110.14(A) Terminals: .... Terminals for more than one conductor and terminals used to connect aluminum shall be so identified.

    The neutral isn't needed for the water heater. They are using the red and black for the 240 and the bare ground. That's all that's needed and I'd have no problem with that one. The white and black have been snipped off that other abandoned cable. They are short, not flopping around, and couldn't come in contact with any live parts.

    The double-tapped breakers are wrong, but I couldn't get excited about the rest.


  4. #4
    David Banks's Avatar
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    Default Re: NEC codes please

    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Menelly View Post
    Code is a wonderful thing but why is your client talking to the seller? No Realtor involved?

    If they are talking to each other suggest to your client to call the city inspector or any electrician and your client will know the seller is full of crap.

    I know, tell them the code to prove yourself. Fact is their is not any city electric inspector that would pass this panel the way it is. Their or probably no licensed electricians that would have done that. That looks plain and simple like the home owners work.

    Unfortunately we are not code inspectors but inspect on code. Your license and training tells you with out a doubt that this is not right and should be corrected.

    A city official would just put a tag on it or the permit marked failed and more than likely not give the reason or code. Your integrity and intelligence are being questioned and demeaned by the seller. They are quite frankly the liars and are saying your are and you do not know what you are talking about.

    You in fact did your job and it is the realtor or your clients job to follow up with your suggestions.

    Sorry, some folks just piss me off and then I go off.
    Thanks Ted! I needed that. Realtor involved. Owner Realtor says new 100 amp panel due to past home inspection. Saw Realtor today at the radon pickup, she was mad as hell. Says the panel was inspected by town and permit pulled and she knows the electrician.
    Client emailed me looking for backup. I really think she was mad as hell at the whole report.


    "The neutral isn't needed for the water heater. They are using the red and black for the 240 and the bare ground. That's all that's needed and I'd have no problem with that one. The white and black have been snipped off that other abandoned cable. They are short, not flopping around, and couldn't come in contact with any live parts.

    The double-tapped breakers are wrong, but I couldn't get excited about the rest."

    Richard. You are kidding right? You do not think all abandoned wires should be properly terminated/wire nuts?
    When I took off the cover all those snipped wires were against the panel or close. I bent them inward before I replaced the cover.


  5. #5
    Richard Moore's Avatar
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    Default Re: NEC codes please

    Richard. You are kidding right? You do not think all abandoned wires should be properly terminated/wire nuts?

    I see wiring all the time that isn't properly terminated and might/could get accidently energized, and yes, that all needs to be properly terminated or removed even if it seems to have no power and/or is no longer connected at the panel...because you just never know. But...no, what I'm seeing in your photos, with those particular wires within that particular panel, would not concern me nearly as much.


  6. #6
    Ted Menelly's Avatar
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    Default Re: NEC codes please

    Sorry about your Realtor woes. Obviously the realtor and the electrician are sniffing backsides (that was a little crude) Your client wanting the home needs to get a real electrician, or, did I say or, Call the building official that supposedly passed the panel and get him out there to back up what he said. You have no need to back up what you said. He is not going to look you in the face and say, Whaaaaaat?

    Yes all snipped, obsolete, not used wires need to be terminated properly. If someone was to hook something up to where ever those wires come from, some one is going to get hurt badly.

    I wish I had my book here but I do not have any books with me right now. The IRC should have the same thing in there.

    You need to give that Realtor a spanking. Nah, she will probably like it.

    Ted Menelly, Castle Home Inspection Services
    www.inspectmycastle.com
    Fort Worth, Keller, Southlake, Plano, Flower Mound, DFW, TX

  7. #7
    Jerry Peck's Avatar
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    Default Re: NEC codes please

    Quote Originally Posted by David Banks View Post
    Owners telling my client that panel is new and permit was obtained and was inspected.
    We all know what it means to have been inspected and signed off, don't we? It means that, that and 5 bucks will still come up short buying a cup of caffeine at Starbucks.

    How about those three (3) grounds in that one terminal? Some (*some*) panels allow up to 3 grounds in one terminal while others only allow up to 2 grounds in one terminal.

    The multiple tap (and you see why I always say "multiple tap" instead of "double tap") is not allowed on those breakers. One has 2 and one has 3.

    I know Richard was talking to himself about stating that those cut off wire did not need wire nuts, but they do. *IF* those cut off conductors were cut off down to the nub (down to the cable clamp with no possibility of them being energized, then ... MAYBE ... no wire nut would be acceptable.

    HOWEVER, there is enough wire sticking out that it *could* ("likely" is not a consideration, "could" is the determining factor) "could" become energized - thus it needs a wire nut and needs to be tied back out of the way. Actually, the best way to terminate a wire like that is to terminate it into the ground terminal bar (being as this is "service equipment" that would be the 'neutral/ground' terminal bar, re-identifying the ends - all ends - with green phase tape).

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

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