Results 1 to 45 of 45
  1. #1
    A.D. Miller's Avatar
    A.D. Miller Guest

    Default Conducive Conditions

    I wasn't sure where to post this, so it's going here.

    I'm curious how many inspectors note in their reports the presence or likely presence of wood destroying inspect conducive conditions on homes with structurally supported slabs with cardboard void boxes?

    And, on new construction inspections, when borate treatment of the framing is used to satisfy the IRC requirement for termite treatment, how many mention at the final inspection the presence of wood flooring on slab foundations as conducive?

    Aaron

    Similar Threads:
    Member Benefits1

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ormond Beach, Florida
    Posts
    26,252

    Default Re: Conducive Conditions

    Quote Originally Posted by A.D. Miller View Post
    when borate treatment of the framing is used
    I'll go a step further.

    How many mention that borate treated wood does not make it termite resistant?

    Yes, according to a study by the University of Florida, that was proven.

    Here is the catch:

    The manufacturer's show that borate treated wood kills the termites which eat it, all fine and true. Under idealistic conditions with a finite number of termites.

    The UF study showed that, while the above is true, under those conditions, given the infinite number of termites which will repeatedly attack the borate treated wood, the 'first wave', the 'sacrificial wave' if you will, eats that 1/16" penetration of the borate and dies, the 'second battalion' now attacks the exposed non-borate treated wood, some eat what is left of the borate treated wood and die, the rest rest live, and, now the borate treated wood has been eaten and the wood is no longer borated treated.

    The wood is now 'just plain old wood' and is exposed to termites as though it was never treated.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  3. #3
    A.D. Miller's Avatar
    A.D. Miller Guest

    Default Re: Conducive Conditions

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    I'll go a step further.

    How many mention that borate treated wood does not make it termite resistant?

    Yes, according to a study by the University of Florida, that was proven.

    Here is the catch:

    The manufacturer's show that borate treated wood kills the termites which eat it, all fine and true. Under idealistic conditions with a finite number of termites.

    The UF study showed that, while the above is true, under those conditions, given the infinite number of termites which will repeatedly attack the borate treated wood, the 'first wave', the 'sacrificial wave' if you will, eats that 1/16" penetration of the borate and dies, the 'second battalion' now attacks the exposed non-borate treated wood, some eat what is left of the borate treated wood and die, the rest rest live, and, now the borate treated wood has been eaten and the wood is no longer borated treated.

    The wood is now 'just plain old wood' and is exposed to termites as though it was never treated.
    JP: Agreed, but it looks great at the pre-drywall stage to have two-tone studs. And, it is still arguable better than the other two ICC-approved alternatives of soil pre-treatment which is good for only 5 years at best or placement of bait stations which is tantamount to placing a red carpet out for the termites.

    If wood must be used to frame, then I'm for pressure-treated borate lumber, paperless drywall and plastic furniture, etc.. Let them move on to the next house.

    Aaron


  4. #4
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ormond Beach, Florida
    Posts
    26,252

    Default Re: Conducive Conditions

    Quote Originally Posted by A.D. Miller View Post
    And, it is still arguable better than the other two ICC-approved alternatives of soil pre-treatment which is good for only 5 years at best
    I disagree with those assumptions.

    It is probable, in a high termite pressure area, that you will not even get 1 year with borate treated studs. Once the first wave has digested that slim 1/16" or less layer, the rest of the termites have free reign.

    At least the chemicals, if put down per the label, might give you 5 years.

    Here is a better solution: Why are you still using wood studs instead of metal framing?

    or placement of bait stations which is tantamount to placing a red carpet out for the termites.
    That I agree with.

    Agreeing with 1 out of 2 is not bad.

    If wood must be used to frame,
    But ... why "if wood must be used"? Metal framing is available, strong, termite resistant ( ).

    Ever heard of seen that mechanical termite barrier which is a stainless steel mesh? I saw a sample of it about 6-8 years ago, but have not heard much about it since, especially since I retired and quit re-newing my pest control operators license 2 years ago, which means I quit keeping up with pest control continuing education.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Rockwall Texas
    Posts
    4,519

    Default Re: Conducive Conditions

    Jerry,

    You must be talking about what is known as "Termimesh".
    Popular in Australia for years but is slow on acceptance here in the states.

    Termite Barrier, Physical Termite Barrier, Termite Protection - Termimesh

    As far as Aaron's question about cardboard in the forms, I always note it as being a "conducive" condition. Doesn't matter to me if it has borate treatment or not. Termites can cross any chemical treatment to get to a cellulose souce.

    Most applications are not done per the label anyway so the risk of infestation is still present. Don't put yourself at risk over by not reporting conducive conditions.

    rick


  6. #6
    Bob Spermo's Avatar
    Bob Spermo Guest

    Default Re: Conducive Conditions

    Jerry,

    While metal studs are termite resistant they are not "energy friendly". Metal studs installed without the exterior wall being 100% covered by something like foam board insulation reduces the "R" value of your wall by as much as 40-50%. The conductivity of the metal stud makes it very energy inefficient.


  7. #7
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ormond Beach, Florida
    Posts
    26,252

    Default Re: Conducive Conditions

    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Hurst View Post
    Jerry,

    You must be talking about what is known as "Termimesh".
    Popular in Australia for years but is slow on acceptance here in the states.
    That's the stuff.

    Most applications are not done per the label anyway so the risk of infestation is still present. Don't put yourself at risk over by not reporting conducive conditions.

    Agree with that. If there are conducive conditions, it all gets reports.

    Regarding cardboard forms, though, they should be addressed not only as a conducive condition, but as "form material left in place" as all form material is required to be removed, unless the form material is specifically designed to be left in place, such as with ICF.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ormond Beach, Florida
    Posts
    26,252

    Default Re: Conducive Conditions

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Spermo View Post
    Jerry,

    While metal studs are termite resistant they are not "energy friendly".
    Bob,

    Thanks, I did not think about that aspect of metal studs. Here (I mean in South Florida, "here" they use wood for everything) ... in South Florida the metal studs were all interior framing, houses were block.

    "Here" metal framing is used interior and exterior in high rises, as well as block.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Plano, Texas
    Posts
    4,170

    Default Re: Conducive Conditions

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Regarding cardboard forms, though, they should be addressed not only as a conducive condition, but as "form material left in place" as all form material is required to be removed, unless the form material is specifically designed to be left in place, such as with ICF.
    I'm curious how many inspectors note in their reports the presence or likely presence of wood destroying inspect conducive conditions on homes with structurally supported slabs with cardboard void boxes?
    I think Aaron may be referring to "squash boxes" (may not be the right term, my memory fails me) which is intentionally left in place to create a void that the clay soils don't fill enough to prevent the foundation from heaving when the clay expands during high moisture events.

    Jim Luttrall
    www.MrInspector.net
    Plano, Texas

  10. #10
    Ron Bibler's Avatar
    Ron Bibler Guest

    Default Re: Conducive Conditions

    Sun light will break chemicals down, Heat will break chemicals down, cold will break chemicals down, moisture will break chemicals... even indirect sun light will have an effect. If we are talking about sub-termites they can make there own mud tubes to get into an area if they want in. they can bridge over treated areas or timbers and even extend into untreated framing of an attic. if you have a plumbing leak bingo game over. dinner in on.

    I do the termite inspection report at the same time I'm doing the home inspection. so for me I'm looking for infestation and infection. or conditions that are deemed likely to lead to an infestation or infection.

    Best

    Ron


  11. #11
    A.D. Miller's Avatar
    A.D. Miller Guest

    Default Re: Conducive Conditions

    [quote=Jerry Peck;64156]I disagree with those assumptions.[QUOTE]
    Now, how did I know that?

    At least the chemicals, if put down per the label, might give you 5 years.
    Maybe. Depends on the soil, the chemical and the certified applicator's ability. Plus, it is much more likely, at least here in my area, that the CA is only applying water or a very diluted solution of chemical to the soil, that it is that you are getting a real treatment. Termiticide is expensive in relation to Bora-Care. But, then you did say "if put down per the label, might give you 5 years".

    Here is a better solution: Why are you still using wood studs instead of metal framing?

    Aaron
    Because the Yankee Federal Government subsidizes the lumber industry.


    But ... why "if wood must be used"? Metal framing is available, strong, termite resistant ( ).
    I said "if" wood must be used, see above.

    Ever heard of seen that mechanical termite barrier which is a stainless steel mesh? I saw a sample of it about 6-8 years ago, but have not heard much about it since, especially since I retired and quit re-newing my pest control operators license 2 years ago, which means I quit keeping up with pest control continuing education.
    There are lots of barriers like that: fine crushed glass, for example, would give us something to do with the recycled glass that mounds up here instead of having refillable bottles. It's been in use in Australia for years where they have a much more serious termite issue than do we.


  12. #12
    A.D. Miller's Avatar
    A.D. Miller Guest

    Default Re: Conducive Conditions

    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Hurst View Post
    Most applications are not done per the label anyway so the risk of infestation is still present. Don't put yourself at risk over by not reporting conducive conditions.

    rick
    Right, most are water only.

    Aaron


  13. #13
    A.D. Miller's Avatar
    A.D. Miller Guest

    Default Re: Conducive Conditions

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Luttrall View Post
    I think Aaron may be referring to "squash boxes" (may not be the right term, my memory fails me) which is intentionally left in place to create a void that the clay soils don't fill enough to prevent the foundation from heaving when the clay expands during high moisture events.
    Correct. They are made of cardboard and intneded to deteriorate in order to form a void. What would termites like better than deteriorated cardboard? Pate?


  14. #14
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ormond Beach, Florida
    Posts
    26,252

    Default Re: Conducive Conditions

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Luttrall View Post
    I think Aaron may be referring to "squash boxes" (may not be the right term, my memory fails me) which is intentionally left in place to create a void that the clay soils don't fill enough to prevent the foundation from heaving when the clay expands during high moisture events.
    Quote Originally Posted by A.D. Miller View Post
    Correct. They are made of cardboard and intneded to deteriorate in order to form a void. What would termites like better than deteriorated cardboard? Pate?
    That's a new one on me, never heard of that before.

    How would you pretreat that anyway?

    How about is they dug the hole, pretreated the hole, sprayed the outside the box with Bora-Care, inserted the box in the hole, sprayed the inside the box with Bora-Care, closed the box up and sprayed the outside the box with ... never mind, they are not going to do *all that*.

    Question, and it is probably a "dumb question": If the box is put in there to allow for it to deteriorate (to become 'not there') over time, why not just dig a hole (making the box 'not there')? That would allow the soil the same place to expand into, right. Why not two trenches, perpendicular to each other, to allow for expansion from either direction?

    If the answer is: Because the soil would move in and fill the trenches, then what do you think it happening when the boxes deteriorate and are 'not there'?

    Seems to me that either one (the trenches or boxes) would create a void (Duh! That is the intent!) which would then fill with moisture ... nothing like having moisture in the 'crawlspace', right?

    I guess I am having a hard time grasping why would would: a) invite termites in to play' b) invite water in to serve as the moisture the termites need to play; c) lose support for the slab by creating voids underneath it.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  15. #15
    A.D. Miller's Avatar
    A.D. Miller Guest

    Default Re: Conducive Conditions

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    That's a new one on me, never heard of that before.

    How would you pretreat that anyway?

    How about is they dug the hole, pretreated the hole, sprayed the outside the box with Bora-Care, inserted the box in the hole, sprayed the inside the box with Bora-Care, closed the box up and sprayed the outside the box with ... never mind, they are not going to do *all that*.

    Question, and it is probably a "dumb question": If the box is put in there to allow for it to deteriorate (to become 'not there') over time, why not just dig a hole (making the box 'not there')? That would allow the soil the same place to expand into, right. Why not two trenches, perpendicular to each other, to allow for expansion from either direction?

    If the answer is: Because the soil would move in and fill the trenches, then what do you think it happening when the boxes deteriorate and are 'not there'?

    Seems to me that either one (the trenches or boxes) would create a void (Duh! That is the intent!) which would then fill with moisture ... nothing like having moisture in the 'crawlspace', right?

    I guess I am having a hard time grasping why would would: a) invite termites in to play' b) invite water in to serve as the moisture the termites need to play; c) lose support for the slab by creating voids underneath it.
    JP: This is only used on piered slabs, in my experience and in my area. Void boxes isolate the concrete from the expansive soil during and after the pour. Once they deteriorate, i.e. are eaten by termites, the void is intended to isolate the slab from the heaving of the soil. Other than the obvious termite issues, this also allows ground water to pool under the slabs severely testing vapor retarders - assuming they were actually installed to begin with.

    This is the really cheap way to build foundations for expensive houses. You don't need real carpenters and concrete contractors, just Juan, Jose, and some empty waxed enchilada boxes. Engineers who recommend this sort of construction should be chastised and/or sent to Mexico. They'd be replaced by Indian engineers with actual educations.

    Aaron


  16. #16
    A.D. Miller's Avatar
    A.D. Miller Guest

    Default Re: Conducive Conditions

    Here are a couple of links for those of you unfamiliar with void boxes or carton forms:

    Guideline Papers
    Read the section under design regarding void boxes

    http://www.voidforminternational.com...s/brochure.pdf

    SureVoid Products, Inc. - Corrugated Paper Carton Void Forms For Concrete Construction.

    http://www.concrete.org/General/f302.1(04)Chap3.pdf
    See 3.3.4

    Aaron


  17. #17
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Plano, Texas
    Posts
    4,170

    Default Re: Conducive Conditions

    Void boxes
    Squash box - void box, pretty close (for me)

    Thanks for the correct term Aaron.

    Jim Luttrall
    www.MrInspector.net
    Plano, Texas

  18. #18
    Ted Menelly's Avatar
    Ted Menelly Guest

    Default Re: Conducive Conditions

    There is another system and the name escapes me at the moment but there are piers put in place that the slab is jacked up on after the pour of the slab. Literally. This creates a void under the entire slab. Great place for rodents of all sorts to live. I never saw one before the pour. Don't know how they handle plumbing.


  19. #19
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Rockwall Texas
    Posts
    4,519

    Default Re: Conducive Conditions

    Aaron,

    Years ago I did termite pretreats on many of the Jack in the Boxes and McDonalds done in the DFW area. Those contracts were the first I remember seeing having the squash box type of forms. Some even used a styrofoam type box form around the perimeter.

    I refused to give them more than a (1) yr. warranty on the pretreat because of the cardboard being a invite for termites regardless if they had been treated or not.

    You talk about a termite company nightmare those are. Once the cardboard deterioates or eaten away by the termites, you have now a huge void under the slab that requires the use of termiticide foam to be used. Big headache.

    You've probably have seen the Terminix wooden sticks drove in the ground around foundations too. Some of them are marked with print that says Termometer. They used to place them in the treated soil and then when they come back for the yearly termite inspection they would pull up the wooden stake to see if termites had attacked them. If evidence was not found, they assumed the treatment was holding up.

    Anyway, I used to mark them up on my WDI reports as being conducive. People called the state PC board and complained about me doing so and they backed me up on it saying I was actually correct. Terminix stopped placing these wooden stakes in the ground as such not long after that.

    Rick


  20. #20
    Ron Bibler's Avatar
    Ron Bibler Guest

    Default Re: Conducive Conditions

    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Hurst View Post
    Aaron,

    Years ago I did termite pretreats on many of the Jack in the Boxes and McDonalds done in the DFW area. Those contracts were the first I remember seeing having the squash box type of forms. Some even used a styrofoam type box form around the perimeter.

    I refused to give them more than a (1) yr. warranty on the pretreat because of the cardboard being a invite for termites regardless if they had been treated or not.

    You talk about a termite company nightmare those are. Once the cardboard deterioates or eaten away by the termites, you have now a huge void under the slab that requires the use of termiticide foam to be used. Big headache.

    You've probably have seen the Terminix wooden sticks drove in the ground around foundations too. Some of them are marked with print that says Termometer. They used to place them in the treated soil and then when they come back for the yearly termite inspection they would pull up the wooden stake to see if termites had attacked them. If evidence was not found, they assumed the treatment was holding up.

    Anyway, I used to mark them up on my WDI reports as being conducive. People called the state PC board and complained about me doing so and they backed me up on it saying I was actually correct. Terminix stopped placing these wooden stakes in the ground as such not long after that.

    Rick
    Thats an Excellent point you bring up Rick about the stakes.

    I have never noted the in a report. but Im going to now...

    Best

    Ron


  21. #21
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ormond Beach, Florida
    Posts
    26,252

    Default Re: Conducive Conditions

    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Hurst View Post
    You've probably have seen the Terminix wooden sticks drove in the ground around foundations too. Some of them are marked with print that says Termometer. They used to place them in the treated soil and then when they come back for the yearly termite inspection they would pull up the wooden stake to see if termites had attacked them. If evidence was not found, they assumed the treatment was holding up.

    Anyway, I used to mark them up on my WDI reports as being conducive. People called the state PC board and complained about me doing so and they backed me up on it saying I was actually correct. Terminix stopped placing these wooden stakes in the ground as such not long after that.

    Rick,

    Same thing I used to do with the wooden grade stakes the contractors would drive into and through the pretreatment barrier - I always wrote them up, then they changed to using pieces of rebar. I still advised my client that those were driven in "after the fact" and has disturbed the termite pretreatment, but at least those were not 'wood' invitation holders for termites to eat and then create their own contractor supplied tunnel right up into the house.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  22. #22
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Plano, Texas
    Posts
    4,170

    Default Re: Conducive Conditions

    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Hurst View Post
    You've probably have seen the Terminix wooden sticks drove in the ground around foundations too. Some of them are marked with print that says Termometer. They used to place them in the treated soil and then when they come back for the yearly termite inspection they would pull up the wooden stake to see if termites had attacked them. If evidence was not found, they assumed the treatment was holding up.

    Anyway, I used to mark them up on my WDI reports as being conducive. People called the state PC board and complained about me doing so and they backed me up on it saying I was actually correct. Terminix stopped placing these wooden stakes in the ground as such not long after that.

    Rick
    So what is the difference in driving a wooden stake in the ground or driving a hollow plastic stake in the ground with wood bait inside? Wouldn't both be conducive?

    Jim Luttrall
    www.MrInspector.net
    Plano, Texas

  23. #23
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ormond Beach, Florida
    Posts
    26,252

    Default Re: Conducive Conditions

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Luttrall View Post
    So what is the difference in driving a wooden stake in the ground or driving a hollow plastic stake in the ground with wood bait inside? Wouldn't both be conducive?

    Jim,

    Yes, but the difference is that one is TRYING to attract the termites, one is not.

    The one which is trying to attract the termites is part of an approved *system*, the other is 'just a wood stick in the ground (which violates the barrier put down where that stake is. The one trying to attract termites has no chemical barrier put down, it is harming nothing, just doing its job (attracting termites).

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  24. #24
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Plano, Texas
    Posts
    4,170

    Default Re: Conducive Conditions

    Kind of like bonding and grounding?
    Or the joke about "How many counselors does it take to change a light bulb? Only one, but the light bulb has to really WANT to change!"

    I get your point about the chemical barrier though, good point.

    For all you pest control guys (not me) what is your opinion of the termite bait stations? Are they effective in termite prevention or just income generation for the PC company?

    Jim Luttrall
    www.MrInspector.net
    Plano, Texas

  25. #25
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ormond Beach, Florida
    Posts
    26,252

    Default Re: Conducive Conditions

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Luttrall View Post
    For all you pest control guys (not me) what is your opinion of the termite bait stations? Are they effective in termite prevention or just income generation for the PC company?

    ... man ... I'm ... barely able to ... type after ... laughing that ... hard ... whew!

    My opinion is that, sure it works - better than nothing. It works best in a high termite pressure area as the chance for a hit increases.

    I know some very knowledgeable pest control operators who have absolute faith in them, maybe because it makes them so much money, but that is not the way they tell it.

    Yes, if you get a hit, and, yes, if you have the monitoring stations actually monitored as you are supposed to, and, yes, if you find the hit during monitoring, and yes, if you then swap the monitoring insert out with a baited insert, yeah, it can take out an entire colony.

    But that sure is a lot of "ifs" in there, and who really continues paying a pest control company to monitor the stations after 6 months or a year? VERY FEW is the answer. Then what is the system worth? VERY LITTLE, it is now simply supplying wood for the termites to eat - bait is not put in there until there is a hit, so you end up 'just feeding' the little buggers.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  26. #26
    Ted Menelly's Avatar
    Ted Menelly Guest

    Default Re: Conducive Conditions

    I won't use the term "a lot of termite inspections I have done that had bait stations I have found termite infestation" but I have done several inspections where there were bait stations and found termite infestation. It never made any sense to me to place the stations that far apart and expect the termites to take a detour to go to the bait stations where they had a nice warm comfy house to feast upon.


  27. #27
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ormond Beach, Florida
    Posts
    26,252

    Default Re: Conducive Conditions

    Ted,

    You don't know termites very well do you?

    You should know that Billy Bob would turn to Betty Jo and ask 'Hey Betty Jo, how about if we stop over at that fancy new place for a bite to eat, I think it's called Station 27?'



    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  28. #28
    Russel Ray's Avatar
    Russel Ray Guest

    Default Re: Conducive Conditions

    Courts here seem to want home inspectors to predict the future, so if there is anything that is conducive to anything, it gets reported.


  29. #29
    A.D. Miller's Avatar
    A.D. Miller Guest

    Default Re: Conducive Conditions

    Russel: Same in Texas. I catch a lot of flack from all concerned with my near endless list of conducive conditions on my WDI reports, but have never had a callback in 12 years. Boilerplate items are around 20 on the average house.

    Aaron


  30. #30
    A.D. Miller's Avatar
    A.D. Miller Guest

    Default Re: Conducive Conditions

    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Hurst View Post
    Aaron,

    Years ago I did termite pretreats on many of the Jack in the Boxes and McDonalds done in the DFW area. Those contracts were the first I remember seeing having the squash box type of forms. Some even used a styrofoam type box form around the perimeter.

    I refused to give them more than a (1) yr. warranty on the pretreat because of the cardboard being a invite for termites regardless if they had been treated or not.

    You talk about a termite company nightmare those are. Once the cardboard deterioates or eaten away by the termites, you have now a huge void under the slab that requires the use of termiticide foam to be used. Big headache.

    You've probably have seen the Terminix wooden sticks drove in the ground around foundations too. Some of them are marked with print that says Termometer. They used to place them in the treated soil and then when they come back for the yearly termite inspection they would pull up the wooden stake to see if termites had attacked them. If evidence was not found, they assumed the treatment was holding up.

    Anyway, I used to mark them up on my WDI reports as being conducive. People called the state PC board and complained about me doing so and they backed me up on it saying I was actually correct. Terminix stopped placing these wooden stakes in the ground as such not long after that.

    Rick
    Rick:

    My favorite though is still the wooden floor truss-on-slab-on-grade foundations. These may actually have a proper name (like caca), but I'm not sure what it is. They're even better than screeded slabs because you can see under them - you just can't get under them.

    As for those damned little sticks; they still put them out on a regular basis. The last ones I saw were on an end-of-warranty house in Castle Hills last month.

    Aaron


  31. #31
    Jake Guerrero's Avatar
    Jake Guerrero Guest

    Default Re: Conducive Conditions

    Seems like I've seen voidboxes on the bottom of the perimeter beam on the tear-down mcmansions in the University Park area. Has anyone else?


  32. #32
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Rockwall Texas
    Posts
    4,519

    Default Re: Conducive Conditions

    Jake, I've seen a number of them in the Highland Park and the University Park area also.

    Aaron, I can't remember if I've written a WDI that didn't have conducive conditions listed either.

    Jim L., They like to call them termite monitoring stations instead of termite baiting stations. I do believe they are a "additional" aid to treating for termites but should not be relied on as the only source. To be quite honest, I don't do any termite work anymore at all as I don't have the faith in any of it anymore. I can't go out there and place bait stations around a house and charge someone 2-3 grand for it (which is no more than placeing plastic boxes with a wooden stake in it and the costs of the materials is less than a few hundred bucks) and then charge them 4-5 hundred a year to come out every 3 months and monitor them. That is what the PC market is doing now, and I just can't do something I have no real faith in. Thats just my opinion. Others will surely disagree. Oh well.

    What I'm doing a lot of right now is going in behind some of the companies that have done treatments and the customers are still having serious termite issues with no results from the PC company. Many times, the reinfestations are occuring due to mechanical or structural issues that have not been addressed by the PC company because they are simply not aware of them. An example would be openings on the roof around the sewer vent pipes where moisture is leaking in and dripping into a wall void providing enough moisture for a satellite colony of termites to exist above the ground where treatments have been placed.

    Rick


  33. #33
    Ted Menelly's Avatar
    Ted Menelly Guest

    Default Re: Conducive Conditions

    Quote Originally Posted by A.D. Miller View Post
    Russel: Same in Texas. I catch a lot of flack from all concerned with my near endless list of conducive conditions on my WDI reports, but have never had a callback in 12 years. Boilerplate items are around 20 on the average house.

    Aaron
    I wrote up conducive conditions, but 20 on an average home. Never been there yet with the exception of a few homes that should have been demolished. Unless your are calling each piece of rotted wood and all individual bushes and counting all 4 sides with high soil. All form boards as individual, all low sots holding water. That type of thing I could count 20 on some. If I write up tree branches touching the roof but there are 10 trees responcible it is still just one write up but on the graph being noted where ever they touch. I will say that I inspect a large majority of fairly nice and new homes. Maybe that has something to do with it.

    When I treated it was termidor only. No crazy fandangled systems. I believe in termidor more than I have in any product.

    Last edited by Ted Menelly; 12-06-2008 at 03:46 PM.

  34. #34
    A.D. Miller's Avatar
    A.D. Miller Guest

    Default Re: Conducive Conditions

    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Menelly View Post
    I wrote up conducive conditions, but 20 on an average home. Never been there yet with the exception of a few homes that should have been demolished. Unless your are calling each piece of rotted wood and all individual bushes and counting all 4 sides with high soil. All form boards as individual, all low sots holding water. That type of thing I could count 20 on some. If I write up tree branches touching the roof but there are 10 trees responsible it is still just one write up but on the graph being noted where ever they touch. I will say that I inspect a large majority of fairly nice and new homes. Maybe that has something to do with it.

    When I treated it was termidor only. No crazy fandangled systems. I believe in termidor more than I haxe in any product.
    Ted:
    1. Slab-on-grade foundation by design.
    2. Slab plumbing penetrations as per Texas building practices.
    3. Slab joints as per Texas building practices.
    4. Poor (non-code compliant) drainage at foundation perimeter.
    5. Gutter downspouts terminated adjacent to foundation edge.
    6. Vegetation in contact with exterior of building.
    7. Soil level high in relation to building materials.
    8. Weep holes as per Texas building practices.
    9. Wood mulch in flower beds adjacent to foundation.
    10. Wood expansion joint fillers in flatwork.
    11. Various plumbing fixture leaks.
    12. Gutters holding water.
    13. Windows leaking.
    14. Roof flashing improper, e.g. base and cap flashing issues, drip edge flashing issues.
    15. Roof installation improper, e.g. felt missing, felt lap wrong, etc.
    16. Wooden fences in contact with structure.
    17. Items stored against exterior walls.
    18. Siding installed too close to grade.
    19. Siding installed too close to roofing surfaces.
    20. Typical intermittent roof flashing leaks, e.g. un-baffled ridge vents, static roof vents, gas appliance vent flashings, plumbing boots, et al.

    Those are just off the top of my head, but I can add a few more, like:

    21. Termite bait stations.

    Aaron


  35. #35
    Ted Menelly's Avatar
    Ted Menelly Guest

    Default Re: Conducive Conditions

    I do understand all that but
    1. Slab-on-grade foundation by design.
    2. Slab plumbing penetrations as per Texas building practices.
    3. Slab joints as per Texas building practices.

    That is every home on slab in the country

    As far as the rest of the items mentioned I am not sure if I could hit 20 on more than, well, not sure how many but not that many per hundred.

    I do write the hell out of grading and drainage on home and termite inspections.

    When ever I did a pretreat around plumbing I did not just spray the top of the soil around the plumbing. I treated the soil around the plumbing where it would penetrate the slab. That makes an awful lot of soil to chomp thru before they get into the home. When I say treat it was more like soil injection with a rod. The little bas****s did not stand a chance.


  36. #36
    Russel Ray's Avatar
    Russel Ray Guest

    Default Re: Conducive Conditions

    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Menelly View Post
    I do understand all that but
    1. Slab-on-grade foundation by design.
    2. Slab plumbing penetrations as per Texas building practices.
    3. Slab joints as per Texas building practices.

    That is every home on slab in the country
    Well, not every home in the country. Here in San Diego, to the best of my knowledge, we don't build anything "as per Texas building practices."


  37. #37
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ormond Beach, Florida
    Posts
    26,252

    Default Re: Conducive Conditions

    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Menelly View Post
    When ever I did a pretreat around plumbing I did not just spray the top of the soil around the plumbing. I treated the soil around the plumbing where it would penetrate the slab. That makes an awful lot of soil to chomp Thru before they get into the home. When I say treat it was more like soil injection with a rod. The little bas****s did not stand a chance.
    I hope there was no CPVC there, those termiticides do a number on CPVC piping.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  38. #38
    Ted Menelly's Avatar
    Ted Menelly Guest

    Default Re: Conducive Conditions

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    I hope there was no CPVC there, those termiticides do a number on CPVC piping.
    Termidor

    Basically a virus for termites. Your dog or kid could lick it with out harm (maybe) It does not eat PVC


  39. #39
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ormond Beach, Florida
    Posts
    26,252

    Default Re: Conducive Conditions

    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Menelly View Post
    Termidor

    Basically a virus for termites. Your dog or kid could lick it with out harm (maybe) It does not eat PVC
    Most termiticides soften CPVC and PVC. UF (University of Florida) did some tests on 12 different pretreatment chemicals, Termidor had the least effect on CPVC piping - you were probably okay having used Termidor.

    http://consensus.fsu.edu/FBC/TW/Smith_Termiticides.pdf

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  40. #40
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Healdsburg, CA
    Posts
    1,741

    Default Re: Conducive Conditions

    Very interesting and educational thread. Now what do you guys think about "tenting?" Good? Waste of money? PCO rip-off?
    PS: I know its done only for drywood termites.


    Jerry McCarthy
    Building Code/ Construction Consultant

  41. #41
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ormond Beach, Florida
    Posts
    26,252

    Default Re: Conducive Conditions

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry McCarthy View Post
    Very interesting and educational thread. Now what do you guys think about "tenting?" Good? Waste of money? PCO rip-off?
    PS: I know its done only for drywood termites.
    .

    Best way to get rid of (kill) drywood termites (along with every other insect which is still in the house). I should add: Provided they use tents without holes and they compensate for the losses due to windy conditions even with good tent material.

    As long as you remember that as soon as it is pronounced safe for you to return, it is also safe for the termites to return (only those termites are dead, so it is safe to be infested by new termites).

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  42. #42
    A.D. Miller's Avatar
    A.D. Miller Guest

    Default Re: Conducive Conditions

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    .

    Best way to get rid of (kill) drywood termites (along with every other insect which is still in the house). I should add: Provided they use tents without holes and they compensate for the losses due to windy conditions even with good tent material.

    As long as you remember that as soon as it is pronounced safe for you to return, it is also safe for the termites to return (only those termites are dead, so it is safe to be infested by new termites).
    JP: You can always move to where they don't live. Think Caribou Barbie.

    Aaron


  43. #43
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Healdsburg, CA
    Posts
    1,741

    Default Re: Conducive Conditions

    If a PCO recommends tenting does he/she invoice the customer with an additional fee charged by the tenting company and add a handling fee or does the tenting company bill separately, and do you think there is any collusion between the PCO and tenting company?
    As an old builder I heard stories and a few times had a PCO claim my new homes required tenting. Needless to say I demanded evidence, but there was none so I called another PCO who cleared my new homes. Bottom line; I would venture that there’s pond scum in all professions.
    (Hmmmm, sort of answered my own question)


    Jerry McCarthy
    Building Code/ Construction Consultant

  44. #44
    Ted Menelly's Avatar
    Ted Menelly Guest

    Default Re: Conducive Conditions

    There are a lot of Termite folks out there in Drywood termite land that do their own tenting. In Florida all the termite folks I met did their own tenting.

    Hmm, pond scum, I guess there is pond scum all over this great planet of ours.


  45. #45
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ormond Beach, Florida
    Posts
    26,252

    Default Re: Conducive Conditions

    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Menelly View Post
    In Florida all the termite folks I met did their own tenting.
    In Florida ... I was a Certified Pest Control Operator, Termite. To do fumigation for drywood termites I would also have had to have obtained my Fumigation Certificate (would not have been hard to do, I just did not have a need for it).

    In fact, *I* could not even contract a fumigation job and then sub it out to a fumigation guy. One had to have a Fumigation Certificate before they could legally even contract for a fume job.

    There are plenty of CPCO who have their Fumigation Certificate in Florida, however, there are only a few who actually do the vast majority of the tenting (at least it was that way in South Florida). They would do their own work and sub out to other Fume guys and do the actual tenting and fumigation.

    I remember I was inspecting one house in Miami where the house next door was being tented (this was before I was a CPCO) and noticed that the tarps used for tenting were full of holes and tears. I called the name on the sign and told them, and their attitude was 'Oh, okay, we'll come out and check.' but was stated in such a way that I knew no one would do anything, that once they hung up the phone my call would be 'lost in the wind', so to speak. I should have called the state to report it, but at the time was I was just starting out and not aware of doing that.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •