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Thread: Input Needed

  1. #1
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    Default Input Needed

    My son is a senior at Pratt Institute, majoring in Industrial Design. His senior project is to design a useful object/system/device. The area he selected is construction safety. He needs some input to help selecting something that would contribute to construction site safety.

    A perfect example of something that would fall into this category would be the flat caps that are placed on rebar ends to prevent eye or stab injury.

    I have talked to him about developing some type of tool tethering system, or safety glasses that attach to hard hats (hopefully they would get used more often).

    Anyway, if anybody has any "what if they had something that...", it would be appreciated.

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    Default Re: Input Needed

    Female personal safety equipment (PSE)! I have a niece that is an environmental engineer and she has to modify all of her PSE to fit her.

    Safety vest are for males only, they fit like a flour sack!
    Safety fall harness just does not fit the curves of a female very well, so she says!
    How about Pink Hardhats, etc...
    Safety glasses are usually too big.

    Scott Patterson, ACI
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    Default Re: Input Needed

    A device that both holds any ladder off of the rain gutter and allows one to attach the top of it to the shingles without damaging them.

    Texas Inspector
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    Default Re: Input Needed

    Very interesting! He does not come home until late in the evening and will go over these then, Until then, please, whatever ideas anyone has, keep them coming in.

    Steven Turetsky, UID #16000002314
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  5. #5

    Default Re: Input Needed

    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Patterson View Post
    Female personal safety equipment (PSE)! I have a niece that is an environmental engineer and she has to modify all of her PSE to fit her.

    How about Pink Hardhats, etc...
    *Gag* Please... Not every female wants to wear pink!!! Blech. Yes, make the equipment fit us, but just have everything in gender-neutral colors.

    What I would like to see is a harness for my camera to keep it handy and close to my body, but available for quick photos. Keeping it in a pocket is a pain.

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  6. #6
    Garry Blankenship's Avatar
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    Default Re: Input Needed

    Construction workers will not like this because those harnesses are not fun to don or wear, but I think fall protection is not adequately stressed / covered. Of all the professional trade injuries I either saw or heard of it was not the shock, weld flash, water burst, metal recoil, broken or defective materials, etc. that did the damage - - - it was the resulting fall.


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    Default Re: Input Needed

    A better holster for the nail gun or 18 volt cordless drill.

    A guard to keep nails from shooting back at the nailer.

    A laser beam alarm system that warns of an overhead danger.

    John Kogel, RHI, BC HI Lic #47455
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    Default Re: Input Needed

    Quote Originally Posted by Garry Blankenship View Post
    Construction workers will not like this because those harnesses are not fun to don or wear, but I think fall protection is not adequately stressed / covered. Of all the professional trade injuries I either saw or heard of it was not the shock, weld flash, water burst, metal recoil, broken or defective materials, etc. that did the damage - - - it was the resulting fall.
    Garry,

    That is precisely the safety feature I have been working on (thinking about) since Steven posted, and I believe I have worked out how to overcome making the safety feature a hazard itself. No one would want a safety feature which itself created another hazard.

    Steven,

    Along Garry's fall protection post statement: I went to a fall protection class last June when OSHA removed the exemption for fall protection from residential roofing work (among other residential work) because the exemption trial period showed just what Garry said - fall injuries were so great under the exemption that they removed the exemption.

    However, the greatest injury from falling and being stopped by the harness is loss of blood flow. In the class, the instructor said that within 2 minutes of hanging there at the bottom of the fall while in a properly fitting and adjusted harness blood flow from the restriction caused by the weight of the body in the harness begins to drop quickly, there is not much time to rescue the person hanging there, not because of injuries from the fall or stop, but from loss of blood flow.

    In most cases, the problem is of getting to the person who has fallen as it is not uncommon to have to try to find a lift or some other device to get the rescuers to the person. Once recent example of this was in one of the entertainment parks over in Orlando this past spring - a worker was working on a high ride, wearing a proper harness, and fell, the deceleration device worked and the harness caught him, and he was left hanging 40', 50', or more in the air. It took about 45 minutes to get a rescue lift high enough to get to him ... he died hanging there from loss of blood flow, not from the fall.

    My idea for your son to take and run with was a fall protection which self-retracts and lifts the person back to the level the fell from. Except that there may be many times when the self-retraction could cause additional injuries by banging and scraping the person against construction items, equipment, etc., or even could wedge the worker under something was it winched the worker back up - not good to have a safety feature injure someone further.

    Sooo ... have the self-retracting device operable from a controller attached to one of the harness straps where the worker could reach the controller (a grapsable device with a button on it). The worker could press the button and control their ascent back up to the level they fell from, where they could then be rescued more easily.

    Okay, making a self-retractor which is strong enough, but light enough to not be such a weight as to cause the fall, will be a problem.

    Have him share the riches when he becomes a mega-millionaire.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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    Default Re: Input Needed

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Garry,

    That is precisely the safety feature I have been working on (thinking about) since Steven posted, and I believe I have worked out how to overcome making the safety feature a hazard itself. No one would want a safety feature which itself created another hazard.

    Steven,

    Along Garry's fall protection post statement: I went to a fall protection class last June when OSHA removed the exemption for fall protection from residential roofing work (among other residential work) because the exemption trial period showed just what Garry said - fall injuries were so great under the exemption that they removed the exemption.

    However, the greatest injury from falling and being stopped by the harness is loss of blood flow. In the class, the instructor said that within 2 minutes of hanging there at the bottom of the fall while in a properly fitting and adjusted harness blood flow from the restriction caused by the weight of the body in the harness begins to drop quickly, there is not much time to rescue the person hanging there, not because of injuries from the fall or stop, but from loss of blood flow.

    In most cases, the problem is of getting to the person who has fallen as it is not uncommon to have to try to find a lift or some other device to get the rescuers to the person. Once recent example of this was in one of the entertainment parks over in Orlando this past spring - a worker was working on a high ride, wearing a proper harness, and fell, the deceleration device worked and the harness caught him, and he was left hanging 40', 50', or more in the air. It took about 45 minutes to get a rescue lift high enough to get to him ... he died hanging there from loss of blood flow, not from the fall.

    My idea for your son to take and run with was a fall protection which self-retracts and lifts the person back to the level the fell from. Except that there may be many times when the self-retraction could cause additional injuries by banging and scraping the person against construction items, equipment, etc., or even could wedge the worker under something was it winched the worker back up - not good to have a safety feature injure someone further.

    Sooo ... have the self-retracting device operable from a controller attached to one of the harness straps where the worker could reach the controller (a grapsable device with a button on it). The worker could press the button and control their ascent back up to the level they fell from, where they could then be rescued more easily.

    Okay, making a self-retractor which is strong enough, but light enough to not be such a weight as to cause the fall, will be a problem.

    Have him share the riches when he becomes a mega-millionaire.
    Why not just have it let you down to the ground slowly? Bucket with enough rope to reach the ground after fall on the roof near the anchor. Rope feeds out of the bucket through a device we used in high school football for training, don't know what it is called but the rope spirals around metal core to create resistance. Use a short piece of cord with 100 pound break strength tied to the anchor and the working side of the rope to prevent it from pulling out of the bucket before a fall. No motors, no buttons, let gravity do the work.

    The beatings will continue until morale has improved. mgt.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vern Heiler View Post
    Why not just have it let you down to the ground slowly? Bucket with enough rope to reach the ground after fall on the roof near the anchor. Rope feeds out of the bucket through a device we used in high school football for training, don't know what it is called but the rope spirals around metal core to create resistance. Use a short piece of cord with 100 pound break strength tied to the anchor and the working side of the rope to prevent it from pulling out of the bucket before a fall. No motors, no buttons, let gravity do the work.
    That is one option, however, because the fall is limited to 6 feet, it seemed more practical to just go back up that 6 feet than to have to bucket around enough rope to lower you 26 stories or however high you were. Plus, where do you carry the bucket with the rope?

    "No motors, no buttons, let gravity do the work"

    Sounds good, but then the person hanging there would need to be able to physically control the descent, plus we have that 'where is all that rope going to be stored or carried around' issue.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    That is one option, however, because the fall is limited to 6 feet, it seemed more practical to just go back up that 6 feet than to have to bucket around enough rope to lower you 26 stories or however high you were. Plus, where do you carry the bucket with the rope?

    "No motors, no buttons, let gravity do the work"

    Sounds good, but then the person hanging there would need to be able to physically control the descent, plus we have that 'where is all that rope going to be stored or carried around' issue.
    Free fall is limited to 6' where the restraint takes over. The rope is stored in a box or container that sits on the roof near the anchor. Better still, the rope hangs back to the ground verifing it is long enought to get the wearer all the way to the ground. When the wearer hits the 6' the 100 pound break strength line breaks and the rope pays out of the box through the resistance device. The decent is predetermined by the resistance/speed of the rope through the device and is automatic with no intervention required and would work with an unconscious person. There could be a more elaborate slowing device than the one I described but I think the simple device could work.

    Last edited by Vern Heiler; 09-18-2012 at 11:38 AM. Reason: Better than box.
    The beatings will continue until morale has improved. mgt.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vern Heiler View Post
    Free fall is limited to 6' where the restraint takes over. The rope is stored in a box or container that sits on the roof near the anchor. Better still, the rope hangs back to the ground verifing it is long enought to get the wearer all the way to the ground. When the wearer hits the 6' the 100 pound break strength line breaks and the rope pays out of the box through the resistance device. The decent is predetermined by the resistance/speed of the rope through the device and is automatic with no intervention required and would work with an unconscious person. There could be a more elaborate slowing device than the one I described but I think the simple device could work.
    Two things:
    1) Many (most?) fall protection uses would not be on sloped roofs, many (most?) are on likely other aspects, such as: swing stages, mid- and high-rise construction and/or exterior renovations/waterproofing, too many other uses to mention, too many other uses and situations where having that rope with you, especially having it dangle to the ground, etc.
    2) I would not recommend having it automatically lower the person without the person being able to start it, stop it, and restart it. Think of falling over the edge of a pile a sharp debris sticking up and your fall protection save you from the fall only to lower you down and impale you on debris from below. And all you can do is watch it coming toward you with you not having any way to stop it from happening.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  13. #13
    Jacob Turetsky's Avatar
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    Default Re: Input Needed

    HI EVERYONE,

    Thanks so much for the responses, it was all very good information and definitely inspiring. My father recommended I join the website to talk to you guys directly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron Miller
    A device that both holds any ladder off of the rain gutter and allows one to attach the top of it to the shingles without damaging them.
    @Aaron, This is interesting, I have thought of investigating ladders. I know that OSHA states you need to use two hands and are not to "carry" things up ladders. This I know is commonly ignored, probably more than it is adhered to. So the concept of the "perfect" ladder is a possibilty for my research, there is probably a need for ladders that mount easily and securely, or ladders which aid in lifting. Ladders are interesting, but I know they have some of the most legal baggage of anything after perhaps child car seats.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Patterson
    Female personal safety equipment (PSE)! I have a niece that is an environmental engineer and she has to modify all of her PSE to fit her.

    Safety vest are for males only, they fit like a flour sack!
    Safety fall harness just does not fit the curves of a female very well, so she says!
    How about Pink Hardhats, etc...
    Safety glasses are usually too big.
    This is great, and true for many professions in fact. I will look into this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck
    Along Garry's fall protection post statement: I went to a fall protection class last June when OSHA removed the exemption for fall protection from residential roofing work (among other residential work) because the exemption trial period showed just what Garry said - fall injuries were so great under the exemption that they removed the exemption.

    However, the greatest injury from falling and being stopped by the harness is loss of blood flow. In the class, the instructor said that within 2 minutes of hanging there at the bottom of the fall while in a properly fitting and adjusted harness blood flow from the restriction caused by the weight of the body in the harness begins to drop quickly, there is not much time to rescue the person hanging there, not because of injuries from the fall or stop, but from loss of blood flow.
    @Jerry, Falls will most likely be the direction I take. My initial research showed that Falls account for the majority of work injuries pretty much across the board. I would be VERY interested in getting some more specific information about Falls, and if you could possibly point me towards some good resources with slightly more detailed information than just percentages that would be AWESOME.

    I am interested to see what scale constructions have the most injuries, (small residential work, large scale or high-rise work, etc.)

    The issue of blood loss is intriguing and the little story you told of the worker's death in the amusement park is perfect kind of information.

    Other area's I was thinking of investigating is the overwhelming fact that many of the BASICS of safety are ignored, i.e. Hard Hats, Goggles, Ear Protection. I am trying to get a chance to speak directly with laborers about this and try and decipher this phenomenon... is this gear not "stylish", is it a hassle to have, do people feel like wimps when wearing it. Though I am sure it is probably all three, I felt it was worth investigating.

    Thanks so much to ALL for the great feedback. I am currently not ready to begin designing the product, I am still in the stage of finding areas of need of jobsites, I know there are many, but perhaps they are of the more subtle nature. Information is what I could use, STORIES, STATISTICS, PET PEEVES. The solution is never in plain view, often neither is the problem.

    Thanks again to all of you.

    -Jacob


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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacob Turetsky View Post
    Other area's I was thinking of investigating is the overwhelming fact that many of the BASICS of safety are ignored, i.e. Hard Hats, Goggles, Ear Protection. I am trying to get a chance to speak directly with laborers about this and try and decipher this phenomenon... is this gear not "stylish", is it a hassle to have, do people feel like wimps when wearing it. Though I am sure it is probably all three, I felt it was worth investigating.
    From personal experience, I believe the larger companies have stricter rules pertaining to the use of safety equipment, such as "wear it or you are fired". (Why? Because injuries cost them $$$ in insurance premiums and lost production.)

    When I worked for a large forest company doing field work, the new owners declared that we would wear our seat belts while driving at all times, even such as moving the truck 100 feet down a spur road. No exceptions. We had a quad to use where the roads were washed out. It stayed in the shed because it wasn't safe to drive with a seat belt and there was no driving allowed without a seat belt.
    "Helmets on" when you step out of the truck, no exception. I could be doing a post-harvest survey on a 50 acre clearcut, had to wear that stinking helmet. I got a white one to reflect the heat a bit better. No, it has to be a red one for visibility. No exception.
    Then eyewear came down the pipe, everyone must wear protective eye wear, no exception. "They fog up when you sweat" I protested. "Don't sweat" was the reply.
    Then one day the office boys went out on a field trip. They picked a nice sunny PM, and wore their vis vests, and their red helmets that let the sun shine thru and they donned their goggles. And they sweated profusely.
    After that, we were told to carry the eye pro and wear it when there was the risk of a poke. Right.

    A hard hat should reflect the sun on a hot day. Eye pro should be vented to prevent fogging. If the protective gear impairs your ability in any way, it should be redesigned.

    John Kogel, RHI, BC HI Lic #47455
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    Just a guess on my part, but I would assume that a big part of the exercise is for HIM to come up with an idea.
    Good luck Jason!

    END GLOBAL WHINING

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    Quote Originally Posted by Benjamin Thompson View Post
    Just a guess on my part, but I would assume that a big part of the exercise is for HIM to come up with an idea.
    Good luck Jason!
    You are absolutely right.

    But Jacob (not Jason) is not looking for someone to design something for him. By mentioning "if there was some type of system that..." is not designing (or building a prototype of) an actual item.

    He is looking for case studies so he can determine what occurred. To simply say someone fell, says nothing. A person could have fallen for a number of reasons. Maybe I introduced it wrong, but as he explained to me last night,he has to examine numerous incidents (ideas, etc), see where they overlap, to develop a device.

    For instance, from Jerry's input it came out about death due to lack of blood circulation. If he goes with that, and researches body pressure(s), different materials, etc and then designs, builds some type of appliance, tests it, makes corrections to the prototype, etc. Did Jerry do Jacob's assignment?

    If he designs a harness that fits women, did Scott do his job?

    Remember, Jacob is not a construction site/safety expert. He is an Industrial Designer and has to be able to design for any client or purpose. This is done by collecting input in order to determine the needs and then develop a device that satisfies those needs.

    Steven Turetsky, UID #16000002314
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    Default Re: Input Needed

    Jason has probably already done a Google search and found these:
    - Miller Fall Protection (to address the blood flow problem)
    - Go Pro-Girl Safety Harnesses & Lanyards (for pink gear to fit a women's body)
    - http://www.cpwr.com/hazpdfs/FallHarnessweb2012.pdf (warning regarding blood flow and death at bottom right)
    - http://www.hse.gov.uk/research/crr_p...2/crr02451.pdf (research on harnesses, including low blood flow)
    - eLCOSH : Will Your Safety Harness Kill You? (more on low blood flow and will your harness kill you)

    There is a lot of information regarding low blood flow out there, all I did was do a Google search for 'fall protection harness blood flow circulation'.

    I still like the idea of self-retraction, but those straps which allow you to stand up almost seem like they should be a standard part of each and every harness.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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    Default Re: Input Needed

    I'm really impressed with that guy who designed the table saw that will stop immediately when coming into contact with a finger. Something that would stop or slow a drill as soon as resistance is decreased could be helpful, along the same lines.

    Jim Robinson
    New Mexico, USA

  19. #19
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    Default Re: Input Needed

    Hi All,

    Thanks again for all the information. After compiling my research and presenting it, I isolated 3 most viable product areas: Re-design of the Basic Personal Safety Gear (modern materials, address bulk, heat, air flow, odors, etc..) , Ladders (either a line of accessories or new ladders to address common issues), Fall Safety Systems (lower cost, easier and less damaging install, safer harnessing were isolated issues)

    After discussing my options in relation to research, and how I would go about prototyping, testing and re-prototyping (which is in my opinion the best way to design, not just model something on the computer and tell the audience this is what it will do)I have selected Ladders. They are more accessible for my current situation, and I could design and test easily with them. Hardhats and goggles would require expensive and intricate models with most likely expensive materials. The fall systems would be risky to test, for obvious reasons.

    I have included an image of my Mind Map of compiled information, I thought you guys might like to see it.


    Also, I am thinking about doing some packaging/graphic design with the ladder that outlines safe procedures and tips for users, I will post things that may be of interest to you guys here on this page.

    Now I need to do some research into specifically ladders, but all of these are certainly in my head for future projects where I have more time/resources.

    -regards
    Jacob


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    Jacob,

    Ladders it is.

    Design a ladder with 3-foot extension uprights built-in with no steps to keep one from stepping through the opening. Stepping around a ladder is the dangerous way to go, maybe make a nylon netting so one does not think the steps are just missing.

    Of course, though, that means the ladder would have a defined 'top' and 'bottom', which means you could also spread the bottom rails apart some for increased stability, then make the ladders in lengths 3 feet longer than the height the ladder is expected to reach. I.e., to reach a 10 foot high eave, the ladder would be 10.3 feet long (based on 4:1 rise:run setup angle), with the 3 foot extensions at the top, the ladder would be 13.3 feet, for good measure, make the ladder 13-1/2 feet - gives allowance to compensate for people setting the ladder up at slightly different angles.

    Then add the standoff/securing device Aaron mentioned, etc.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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    And don't forget "levelers" at the bottom.

    Steven Turetsky, UID #16000002314
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    Default Re: Input Needed

    For HI, we need light and portable ladders, but for the workplace, the ladder can be attached top and bottom, and weight is a secondary issue.

    I want an escalator ladder for the future when my knees give out.
    Tool trays and tool belts for hands free while climbing.
    How about a robot that delivers the tool to where you need it, maybe on a separate winch system?

    John Kogel, RHI, BC HI Lic #47455
    www.allsafehome.ca

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    Jerry,

    I like your idea about the 3' extensions at the top to assist getting on and off a roof. But wouldn't the extensions have to be retractable, so when the ladder is not used for rooftop access and simply leaded against the side of a building, they would not get in the way?

    Another thought, how about some type of "outriggers" so once the ladder is extended to above the roofline, the ladder would have lateral support.

    Steven Turetsky, UID #16000002314
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    Default Re: Input Needed

    Quote Originally Posted by John Kogel View Post
    light and portable ladders
    PLEASE!

    Quote Originally Posted by John Kogel View Post
    How about a robot that delivers the tool to where you need it, maybe on a separate winch system?
    I would buy one one of these today!!!

    Steven Turetsky, UID #16000002314
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steven Turetsky View Post
    I like your idea about the 3' extensions at the top to assist getting on and off a roof. But wouldn't the extensions have to be retractable, so when the ladder is not used for rooftop access and simply leaded against the side of a building, they would not get in the way?
    Steven,

    They could slide down around the outside of the rail while the other part slides up the inside of the rails.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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    Default Re: Input Needed

    I have the perfect idea....bound to make anyone who manufactures it a million dollars.....


  27. #27
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    As a long time contractor before transitioning to HI there are ladder issues that need some creative engineering...

    I have observed a wide range of interpretations about the "foot" of the ladder, i.e. the distance from the base to vertical depending on the user. The decal the mfg's place on the ladder is ineffective and still relies on the user's ability to eyeball plumb. No one puts a level against the decal.

    A tool/material tray that climbs the rails would allow the user to make a safer two-handed climb. Roofers have something like this to deliver material but it won't allow people on.

    Just a couple thoughts for your noggin. Good Luck and let us know what you come up with!


  28. #28
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    Default Re: Input Needed

    A follow up...

    Perhaps an audible alarm when the ladder is set outside of the mfg's recommended angle.

    Also setting ladders on a roof to gain access to a higher roof is done a lot. Doing this safely requires nailing a cleat to the lower roof thereby damaging it.
    Hmm...is there a better way?


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    Default Re: Input Needed

    This is probably too late, but here it is anyway.

    In our area, basement leaks are often corrected (redirected, really) by chopping up the basement floor around the edge and installing interior weep tile. Given that over 12% of the homes here have a radon problem, what is the radiation exposure of those workers who spend every day busting up floors and releasing whatever radon has accumlated there? They need tough, wearable,cumulative dosimters that will let them know when they have reached the OSHA or NRC limits for workplace radiation exposure.
    Matt Bezanson, NRSB # SS75


  30. #30
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Wisconsin
    Posts
    274

    Default Re: Input Needed

    Well, I might be a little late on this topic, but thinking of preventing falls…

    I hear builders complain, and I do as well, about the air compressor cords, or electrical cords, on the roof. When you are walking around and step on them you can roll your foot and lose balance fall and go for a ride. I never got around to it, but thought some type of reel box that would reel the cords back and forth as you walk around would be a good idea.

    Maybe the same idea for safety harness ropes, or expands the idea so the box could detect a quick jerk (or pull) and the rope would lock into place, like a seat belt, preventing the actual fall???


  31. #31
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
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    Ormond Beach, Florida
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    26,248

    Default Re: Input Needed

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Kleisch View Post
    [FONT=Arial]Maybe the same idea for safety harness ropes, or expands the idea so the box could detect a quick jerk (or pull) and the rope would lock into place, like a seat belt, preventing the actual fall???
    This type of fall protection is currently available and this type actually 'prevents the fall', whereas the lanyard type with the deceleration part allows the fall to occur, then stops the person from falling at the fall limit.

    The fall protection which acts much like a seat belt device and stops the person from falling has its own drawback in that, like a seat belt locks up when you move around in your seat wrong, the fall protection device locks up when you move around to fast or wrong. That sudden unexpected stop can lead to one 'falling', except that the fall is more of a 'slip and fall onto their butt' as there is no fall distance involved - unlike the 6 foot fall the other type of fall protection allows before catching you at the bottom of the allowed fall distance.

    I have never fallen with a harness on, and have only worn a harness a few times, but I have had people who have fallen with the harness on tell me that it is no picnic and it is not something you want to do more than once ... heck, if is not something you want to do *even once* as IT HURTS BIG TIME.

    And that is when one is wearing the harness *correctly*, and *most* people wear the harness incorrectly - 'because it is more comfortable that way', but wearing a harness incorrectly can actually lead to more serious injuries when the harness does stop you, it can break legs, pull legs out of hip sockets, it do A LOT OF DAMAGE. I would guess that I have seen, maybe, 1% of the people wearing a harness who have it on and adjusted correctly - almost like saying that almost no one wears them correctly.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  32. #32
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Holladay, UT
    Posts
    565

    Default Re: Input Needed

    Most extension ladder injuries/falls I have seen are where the base of the ladder kicks out, I know this from first hand experience. My own fall was where I had set the ladder on a deck and when getting back on the ladder from roof the base slipped on the deck and down I went. I have been climbing ladders for many years and just got a little careless. It is easy to secure base when you are on grass but it is much harder when base of ladder sits on a hard surface. Would have to be portable and easy to use.

    Tom Rees / A Closer Look Home Inspection / Salt Lake City, Utah

  33. #33
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    Mar 2007
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    26,248

    Default Re: Input Needed

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Rees View Post
    Most extension ladder injuries/falls I have seen are where the base of the ladder kicks out, I know this from first hand experience. My own fall was where I had set the ladder on a deck and when getting back on the ladder from roof the base slipped on the deck and down I went. I have been climbing ladders for many years and just got a little careless. It is easy to secure base when you are on grass but it is much harder when base of ladder sits on a hard surface. Would have to be portable and easy to use.
    "It is easy to secure base when you are on grass ... "

    Don't bet your life on that ... I had a 40 foot extension ladder set up against the fascia of a very high two story house, with the feet firmly planted into the wet grass ... did I say wet grass ...

    The house was lap sided and I was doing remodeling work on it, having just recently painted that side of the house, and the ladder slipped on the wet grass and slid out ... all I could do was grab on to the ladder and ride it all the way down as it bounced down each lap siding board ... bump, bump, bump, bump all the way to the ground. I ended up hanging on to a ladder laying on the hedge below and me still on the ladder on all fours - but it was only about a 2 foot drop off the ladder to the grass from the top of the crushed hedge.

    Don't bet on wet grass to keep your ladder where you planted it, or even muddy grass/soil as the same thing will happen.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  34. #34
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
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    Holladay, UT
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    565

    Default Re: Input Needed

    Jerry, I had a fall exactly like you described before, ended up laying on evergreen shrubs but unhurt. What I was referring to was that on grass it is easy to pound a stake etc. into the soft ground to prevent base from slipping, you can't do that on concrete etc. I should also explain that the time I fell it was a Trex deck I set my ladder on which is much more slick than a wood deck.

    Tom Rees / A Closer Look Home Inspection / Salt Lake City, Utah

  35. #35
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Florida
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    552

    Default Re: Input Needed

    Quote Originally Posted by michael avis View Post
    A follow up...

    Perhaps an audible alarm when the ladder is set outside of the mfg's recommended angle.

    Also setting ladders on a roof to gain access to a higher roof is done a lot. Doing this safely requires nailing a cleat to the lower roof thereby damaging it.
    Hmm...is there a better way?
    Ya, bolt a small level to the side. Make it such that is is still visible in dim light. Mark "DANGER" on the ends when it is not level.


  36. #36
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    552

    Default Re: Input Needed

    Steve,

    I know this may be a little late, but has your son be on "field trips" to construction sites, both small and large to see how the current safety equipment is used? I know on large commercial sites they go strictly by the book, and you could get a lot of good technical information just by watching the work. But this will take a few days as things change on a daily basis on a construction site.

    By observation he may see on how current safety devices are used, and maybe talking to some of the people, get in-depth information on what works and what does not.

    For an example, simple thing like an indicator on the outside of a hard hat that tells you it's useful life has expired and it should be replaced. The indicator should take account time used as well as environmental conditions that may degrade the protection.

    My two cents.


  37. #37
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    Jul 2010
    Location
    Wisconsin
    Posts
    274

    Default Re: Input Needed

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    This type of fall protection is currently available and this type actually 'prevents the fall', whereas the lanyard type with the deceleration part allows the fall to occur, then stops the person from falling at the fall limit.

    The fall protection which acts much like a seat belt device and stops the person from falling has its own drawback in that, like a seat belt locks up when you move around in your seat wrong, the fall protection device locks up when you move around to fast or wrong. That sudden unexpected stop can lead to one 'falling', except that the fall is more of a 'slip and fall onto their butt' as there is no fall distance involved - unlike the 6 foot fall the other type of fall protection allows before catching you at the bottom of the allowed fall distance.

    I have never fallen with a harness on, and have only worn a harness a few times, but I have had people who have fallen with the harness on tell me that it is no picnic and it is not something you want to do more than once ... heck, if is not something you want to do *even once* as IT HURTS BIG TIME.

    And that is when one is wearing the harness *correctly*, and *most* people wear the harness incorrectly - 'because it is more comfortable that way', but wearing a harness incorrectly can actually lead to more serious injuries when the harness does stop you, it can break legs, pull legs out of hip sockets, it do A LOT OF DAMAGE. I would guess that I have seen, maybe, 1% of the people wearing a harness who have it on and adjusted correctly - almost like saying that almost no one wears them correctly.
    Not to drift to much off topic, but my experience with the fall products is limited and not sure how they actually work. I'm just basing my opinion/idea on seeing guys walking around on the roof (residential, more that anything) with the harness rope laying on the deck, don't remember seeing retractable ropes, always figured the rope was limited to the edge of the roof, or edge of roof plus "X" number of feet (based on the slack I see), then again I figured they are used wrong most of the time, if at all.

    I've only used the harness where the ladder is (permanent mount) straight up and you are connected to a separate cable that runs up the middle of the ladder, with the quick rope grab action lever on the cable. The first time I used one the guy said, "Push the rope grab above you, otherwise it will follow you up and if you slip off you add a couple feet to the fall, it might not sound like much, but when you fall it will feel like a lot" he followed that up with, "Remember, it's not the fall that kills you, it's that sudden stop at the bottom."


  38. #38
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Snowbird (this means I'm retired and migrate between locations), FL/MI
    Posts
    4,086

    Default Re: Input Needed

    Rated or rateable safety leather/work gloves which also provide for/allow fiberglass sized inserts and wrap straps for repetative motion and similar injury prevention/support.

    Similar in adapatability to, for example, adjustable orthodic shoe inserts.

    i.e. carpal tunnel, (radial nerve), ulnar nerve, problems/inuries/prevention of.

    Wrist/forearm braces, supports, motion guards presently cannot be worn with or over rated or unrated leathers. Guards, splints, etc. can be of molded non-conductive fiberglass or other and might be inserted in stitched pockets in rated leathers.

    Prevention of injury, back to work sooner, not just construction applications... such as assembly, manufacture, QA, etc. .not just safety leather gloves -- haven't seen anything similar yet - quasi-medical/body mechanics/work safety/etc. what do you think?

    Not unlike custom molded kidney pads - can remove from to wash or to and insert to new leathers or other material to standardized reinforced stitched pocket chanels based on glove or other equipment - sizes...not unlike temporary finger splints (metal formed and slipped in chanel of hand/palm strap) now used in emerg. medicine.

    "Orthodic" safety equipment. Perhaps even use palm pad pockets for cork or "moleskin" inserts for pressure points (such as when driving an auger, jackhammer, hammer drill, etc.).



    Another "idea" - snap on/off visor extensions for safety helments/hard-hats - similar to bicycle helments - to deflect rain or sun glare, not necessarily to extend the "hard hat" protection.


  39. #39
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Southern California
    Posts
    47

    Default Re: Input Needed

    Quote Originally Posted by Steven Turetsky View Post
    My son is a senior at Pratt Institute, majoring in Industrial Design. His senior project is to design a useful object/system/device. The area he selected is construction safety. He needs some input to help selecting something that would contribute to construction site safety.

    A perfect example of something that would fall into this category would be the flat caps that are placed on rebar ends to prevent eye or stab injury.

    I have talked to him about developing some type of tool tethering system, or safety glasses that attach to hard hats (hopefully they would get used more often).

    Anyway, if anybody has any "what if they had something that...", it would be appreciated.
    Tell him to keep it elegantly simple. Like the caps for rebar. Simple, inexpensive to make, and easy to install. He'll sell a million of them.

    Kudos to you for helping him realize the worth of extended education.
    My grandson who is 21 had worked with me for about 1/2 a year previously doing inspection and related work. He is now taking basic plumbing and other construction classes and "hopefully" he will take over my inspection business someday. He worked with me doing inspections much of this summer and has a great feel for it.

    Good Luck!

    Expert Mobile & Manufactured Home Inspections O.C. & San Diego Co.


  40. #40
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Tolland, CT
    Posts
    33

    Default Re: Input Needed

    I agree with the safety glasses. for myself my nose is bent a little to the left and standard safety glasses do not fit unless I heat them up and bend them to fit. it would be nice if there was a wire frame safety glasses that could be adjusted to fit anyone.

    definately one size does not fit all.


    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Patterson View Post
    Female personal safety equipment (PSE)! I have a niece that is an environmental engineer and she has to modify all of her PSE to fit her.

    Safety vest are for males only, they fit like a flour sack!
    Safety fall harness just does not fit the curves of a female very well, so she says!
    How about Pink Hardhats, etc...
    Safety glasses are usually too big.



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