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  1. #1
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    Default Lead in the environment and FPE panels

    I was watching Cosmos on TV last night. A portion of the show was about lead in the environment.
    Seems that lead in the environment greatly increased starting in the 1920's, which coincided with the use of lead added to gasoline. The gasoline refiners and the manufacturers of lead (Ethel Corp) disputed that lead in the environment was related to lead use in gasoline. After years of research and debate lead was banned from gasoline.
    Pretty much the same story with lead added to paint.
    In both cases the manufacturer of the product went to great lengths to confuse the facts, trying to prevent there product from being banned.
    To me, this looked much like the debate on FPE panels.
    While the overwhelming majority of informed people are aware of the problems associated with this product, the manufacturer causes every delay they can conceive.

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    ' correct a wise man and you gain a friend... correct a fool and he'll bloody your nose'.

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Lead in the environment and FPE panels

    There was alot of research from various sources in the lead debate. In the FPE debate there seems to be hardly any. If a true scientific testing approach was taken using a large base, say 3,000 and not 122 as the base number with a good methodology you might get less push back. Looking at the CPSC :

    CPSC-C-81-1429 December 30, 1982
    Final Report: Contract CPSC-C-81-1429
    Date: December 30, 1982
    Submitted by: Jesse Aronstein

    This is the basis for most of the written opinions on FPE. Many other opinions are then based 2nd or 3rd hand cycling back to the original report. Once upon a time in a land far far away being involved in research, I found that test manipulation was possible to derive a desired outcome. Easily steerable. Yet the is good research that is done without bias. It just seems so odd that the research, testing and sample size is so small and is being relied on as the final word for many.

    No question the side that is having its ox gored will try to protect itself. Maybe the CPSC needed to redirect its budget away from testing of tricycles and the issue that they will tip over, which every child and parent was aware of from experience. Including the fact that you could get hurt hitting the ground.

    Their comment in the final report is the statement that they want to go with. Which was:

    "The Commission staff believes that it currently has insufficient data to accept or refute Reliance's position."


  3. #3
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    Default Re: Lead in the environment and FPE panels

    Quote Originally Posted by Garry Sorrells View Post
    ... I found that test manipulation was possible to derive a desired outcome. Easily steerable. ...
    Figures don't lie... but liars can figure.

    ' correct a wise man and you gain a friend... correct a fool and he'll bloody your nose'.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    May 2008
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    Madison Heights, MI
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    Default Re: Lead in the environment and FPE panels

    [QUOTE=Rick Cantrell;242213]I was watching Cosmos on TV last night. A portion of the show was about lead in the environment.
    Seems that lead in the environment greatly increased starting in the 1920's, which coincided with the use of lead added to gasoline. The gasoline refiners and the manufacturers of lead (Ethel Corp) disputed that lead in the environment was related to lead use in gasoline. After years of research and debate lead was banned from gasoline.


    Odd, as an old phart in Detroit, I remember that differently. The EPA was imposing limits on how much un-burned hydrocarbon was allowed to come out of a car's exhaust pipe. After a few false starts, the auto industry settled on catalytic converters to reduce those emissions, but the lead was fouling up the converters. Lead in gasoline was banned to protect catalytic converters. The benefits to people's nervous systems and to the environment in general were unanticipated side-effects of that ban.


  5. #5
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    Default Re: Lead in the environment and FPE panels

    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Bezanson View Post
    Odd, as an old phart in Detroit, I remember that differently. The EPA was imposing limits on how much un-burned hydrocarbon was allowed to come out of a car's exhaust pipe. After a few false starts, the auto industry settled on catalytic converters to reduce those emissions, but the lead was fouling up the converters. Lead in gasoline was banned to protect catalytic converters. The benefits to people's nervous systems and to the environment in general were unanticipated side-effects of that ban.
    I was pointing out that even after the hazards of lead were widely known, manufacturers were defending adding lead to gas and paint for several more decades. The same can be said about the manufacturer of FPE panels. The conclusion being, one should expect defending data from a manufacturer to be misleading, possible false.

    ' correct a wise man and you gain a friend... correct a fool and he'll bloody your nose'.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
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    Kansas City Missouri
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    Default Re: Lead in the environment and FPE panels

    I have read that the major contributor to lead contamination in the environment now is from aviation fuel for piston engine aircraft.

    Galen L. Beasley
    Inspections Supervisor
    Housing Authority of Kansas City MO

  7. #7
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    Mar 2007
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    Sturgis, Michigan
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    Default Re: Lead in the environment and FPE panels

    "To me, this looked much like the debate on FPE panels.
    While the overwhelming majority of informed people are aware of the problems associated with this product, the manufacturer causes every delay they can conceive."

    I too watched most of that episode. I just kept nodding my head and muttering additional comments until my wife and kids made me quit. I didn't make the connection to FPE at the time but find that interesting. I have a couple electricians to refer to who are adamant about replacing them and not waiting to see if a problem arises. That helps with verifying what I have written in the report.

    As an addition to the lead in the environment issue: I read that the crime rate in the United States dropped significantly after about 20 to 25 years after the ban. Crime rates and lead pollution has been studied (quite a bit?) especially where young males are concerned.
    One hypothesis about the crime rate was that the reduced rate was more related to lead in the environment than get tough/zero tolerance polices. And, finally, the same article said that areas in the world with high crime/violent young men/hatred/animosity to others/etc are those countries where lead restrictions are not in place (think Osama Bin Laden and his ilk). I have no idea if that is true but it was sure interesting.


  8. #8

    Default Re: Lead in the environment and FPE panels

    Hello Gents!

    I wouldn’t know an FPE panel from a wooly jumper if it walked up to me and shook my hand. (And I don’t know what the issue is with FPE, so if someone wants to educate me, that would be great).

    However, what I notice missing from this thread is the false assumption that lead is introduced into the environment by Man.

    This concept is simply incorrect.

    Lead is an element and (except in the context of nuclear decay), cannot be created or destroyed. As such, lead is not introduced into the environment – ever. Instead lead may be taken from one location and redistributed to another location.

    The mere presence of lead does not necessarily equate to an harmful condition – but rather, the absolute quantity, the exposure potential, the time of exposure, and the “bioavailability” of the lead all play a role in the hazard assessment.

    Many of the studies surrounding lead in the environment were fatally flawed since they failed to take into account the “bioavailability” of the species of lead being analyzed and merely .gave a total lead content. Therefore, environmental samples that were collected from areas high in a mineral called “galena” inappropriately skewed the data high; and yet the lead found in galena isn’t available to the human system, and therefore, there is no dose received, even at high exposures.

    Indeed, the manufacturers of some products intentionally add lead to their products and yet there is no exposure. Fine leaded crystal, for example, gets its brilliance and sparkle from the lead that is added to the glass – some fine crystal may contain upwards to 30% lead by weight. And yet that lead is in a form that is not bioavailable, and therefore, there is no dose received and no exposure either

    (Bugger it! The “period” key on my keyboard just broke, so there will be no further “periods” in this post,,,, gonna be one of those days, I suppose)

    Anyway,,, In the late 1980’s I developed a new atomic absorption method for analyzing lead in human blood using a Zeeman magnet to split the atomic spectral lines since I was seeing other kinds of problems when analyzing lead – those problems were actually in the opposite direction and biased the lead results low

    In any event, when I would analyze lead in samples, .I would first ascertain from the client “Why” they needed the data, and then >I .would analyze the lead to meet the data needs.

    >(>>Now I’m getting a …”period” when I didn’t even type a period…. actually I’m getting all kinds of characters now

    OK, I better conclude this post before my keyboard blows up

    In any event, whereas I haven’t got a clue about FPE panels, I would be happy to answer some questions about lead.

    Cheers!
    Caoimhín P. Connell
    Forensic Industrial Hygienist
    Forensic Applications Consulting Technologies, Inc. - Home

    (The opinions expressed here are exclusively my personal opinions and do not necessarily reflect my professional opinion, opinion of my employer, agency, peers, or professional affiliates. The above post is for information only and does not reflect professional advice and is not intended to supercede the professional advice of others.)

    AMDG


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