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  1. #1

    Default Electromagnetic fields, power lines and cancer

    A home buyer recently put to us the following question:

    We are shopping for a place in( xxxx, Colorado). One place we found is next to some high tension lower lines. What kind of info can you give me for electro magnetic fields? Is there an increased risk associated with living there for any conditions I wouldn't want my new baby exposed to?
    The entire issue surrounding high-tension power lines and cancer is, like other make believe issues, (Global Warming, toxic mould, multiple chemical sensitivity syndrome (MCS), etc) , entirely a myth.

    I suspect Home Inspectors encounter questions concerning electromagnetic waves (EMFs) when they inspect homes around high voltage power lines. As such, you may be interested in my response to the home buyer:

    https://www.facebook.com/pages/Foren...9428887?ref=ts

    Cheers!
    Caoimhín P. Connell
    Forensic Industrial Hygienist
    Forensic Applications Consulting Technologies, Inc. - Home

    (The opinions expressed here are exclusively my personal opinions and do not necessarily reflect my professional opinion, opinion of my employer, agency, peers, or professional affiliates. The above post is for information only and does not reflect professional advice and is not intended to supercede the professional advice of others.)

    AMDG

    F.I.R.E. Services

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Electromagnetic fields, power lines and cancer

    Many years ago, I owned a home that was about fifty feet form a high voltage transmission line tower for nine years. I could hold a fluorescent light tube in my backyard that would glow bright enough to see my way. When I built a play house for the kids, the roof flashing repeatedly shocked me.

    So, I did extensive research into EMFs and read the available studies at the time. I reached the same conclusion that the "Working Group" did. There is not sufficient evidence of harmful health effects from the EMFs generated by high voltage transmission lines at ground level (or even the second floor of a nearby home) to cause concern.

    But the towers and lines are still ugly.............and I'm glad that I no longer look out my bedroom window at them.

    If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Electromagnetic fields, power lines and cancer

    Yep! True enough!

    The field strengths can easily light up a fluorescent tube while in close proximity to the power lines!

    A fun demonstration in dry climates (such as Colorado) is to hold a fluorescent light bulb and shuffle your feet across a carpeted floor and watch the fluorescent tube light up! You can easily light up a room doing this, and yet, the field strengths are not high enough to cause harm.

    So, although dramatic, it doesn’t speak to the issue of “harm.” Remember that a static spark you experience when you reach out to touch the tip of your dog’s nose…. I mean reach out and touch a metal door knob, can result in a spark that is tens of thousands of volts. Same concept.

    Cheers!
    Caoimhín P. Connell
    Forensic Industrial Hygienist
    Forensic Applications Consulting Technologies, Inc. - Home

    (The opinions expressed here are exclusively my personal opinions and do not necessarily reflect my professional opinion, opinion of my employer, agency, peers, or professional affiliates. The above post is for information only and does not reflect professional advice and is not intended to supercede the professional advice of others.)

    AMDG


  4. #4
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    Default Re: Electromagnetic fields, power lines and cancer

    I recently checked out a piece of raw land with about an acre under a power line. Using fence wire for collectors, I think you could charge batteries and get some free light. So some people would benefit financially from living near power lines.
    Not all power lines will produce the same amounts of EMF, so anyone looking to buy should do some research too.

    Thanks, Caoimhin. Some other time, we should rehash the global warming issue, Still in denial, I see, tsk, tsk.

    John Kogel, RHI, BC HI Lic #47455
    www.allsafehome.ca

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Electromagnetic fields, power lines and cancer

    I think Inachi offers an EMF Certification for those looking to dupe the public....

    Scott Patterson, ACI
    Spring Hill, TN
    www.traceinspections.com

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Electromagnetic fields, power lines and cancer

    Look up articles on Nikola Tesla.


  7. #7
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    Default Re: Electromagnetic fields, power lines and cancer

    There is no link shown to any electromagnetic field you encounter in daily life to any adverse health effect.
    Problem: There have been many studies on this, and some HAVE shown a high correlation between magnetic fields (from power lines in the most famous study) and various health issues. Some of these have been interpreted by some to mean strong EMF degrades health.
    What is hard to explain to some folks is that correlation does not mean linkage. For instance, from 2000 to 2009 there was a better than 99% correlation between the divorce rate in Maine and the per-capita consumption of margarin in the US as a whole. In statistics, this is an absurdly high rate of correlation. And yet, I think we can agree that there is no relationship whatever between someone in Florida eating margarine and divorce rates in Maine.

    Sometimes things seem to correlate when no relationship exists. Other times a relationship exists, but there is no causality. The famous power-line study found people living very close to power lines had worse health than those living in the suburbs and concluded there was some causality. A review revealed that the large populations living under high-tension power lines that were studied were also living right next to major highways and were much lower on the economic spectrum than the other population, living in the suburbs in nice neighborhoods. A follow on study found that most populations of poor folks living in crowded conditions, breathing exhaust fumes, eating cheap food, and not getting regular dental / doctor care had worse health overall than suburban populations regardless of the presence of power lines. The kicker was that pole climbers who worked on the high tension power lines every day had better health on average than even the suburban population. (Of course, those with general poor health tend not to be pole climbers!)

    My conclusion: There is no significant relationship between any reasonable electromagnetic field and personal health. However, there may be a relationship between power line proximity and resale value.

    -----

    correlation.png

    2000 2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009
    Divorce rate in Maine
    Divorces per 1000 people (US Census)
    5 4.7 4.6 4.4 4.3 4.1 4.2 4.2 4.2 4.1
    Per capita consumption of margarine (US)
    Pounds (USDA)
    8.2 7 6.5 5.3 5.2 4 4.6 4.5 4.2 3.7
    Correlation: 0.992558

    (1.00 is perfect correlation - think 1 to 1 relationship.)

    There is a website that has a server continuously comparing tables to other tables looking for correlations. ( Spurious Correlations ) If you look for such things hard enough, you are certain to find them. Sometimes it even seems plausible that some causality exists. But be careful. The pole climbers being much healthier than the population as a whole could be interpreted to mean that EMF enhances your overall health!


  8. #8
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    Default Re: Electromagnetic fields, power lines and cancer

    Quote Originally Posted by gary carroll View Post
    What is hard to explain to some folks is that correlation does not mean linkage.!
    We always say "Correlation does not imply Causation".

    If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Electromagnetic fields, power lines and cancer

    The research I've read in past years (going back 20-25 years or so, maybe more) found that even the research which found that there was a correlation with high-tension power lines and high ELF-EMF (Extremely Low Frequency - ElectroMagnetic Fields, i.e., 50-60 Hz) admitted that even though their research determined that the correlation was high enough to state that the implication of the high numbers of childhood leukemia (and other conditions) was a result of the high-tension power lines, that ...

    (here is the good part)

    ... their research did not also examine the other environmental conditions in the area of the high-incidence of the health conditions found - that they did not do research, experimentation, testing, analysis,, etc. of the air, the water, the soil, etc., and that the real culprit could be one of the other environmental conditions not researched.

    Huh?

    Oh, yeah, what they said, in effect, was "While we think the cause is the high ELF-EMF, we did not do anything to be able to discount anything in the air, the water, the soil, etc.

    Gary,

    There is a correlation between the number of divorces in MA and the consumption of margarine in FL ... all those divorcees left MA, came to FL, then ate all our margarine.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Electromagnetic fields, power lines and cancer

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Abram View Post
    There are issues beyond cancer ... (shocks)
    I would consider EMF that can generate induced current that can shock you to your knees to be outside of "electromagnetic field you encounter in daily life", which was a condition I cited.
    I would urge someone who gets shocked to their knees to alter their life so that this becomes true.

    [Technically, EMF won't shock you, but induced current can. If such current in objects is strong enough to shock you, you must take precautions - I recommend starting with a lot more distance! A grounding strap on you would be one of the worst possible remedial actions since it's the current flow through you that is the problem. For people who must get close (power line workers), the EMF itself will do them no harm directly. Don't take these as instructions as to how to get close safely... if you are not trained how, don't!]

    Re: Using induced power for fun and profit:
    http://www.industrytap.com/electromagnetic-harvesters-free-lunch-or-theft/1805

    Re: Divorced people move south and eat all the margarin theory - I doubt this since 88.7% of divorcees prefer butter while only 61.23% of married people can afford butter. Statistics are wonderful, and only 19.76% of them are made up on the fly.

    This reminds me: I was asked by a salesperson in our company how to handle a competitor if they had the facts on their side. My suggestion: "Facts are stubborn things. They say what they say, and can't really be made to say anything else. However, statistics can be tweaked to say pretty much whatever you want. The difference between facts and statistics is mostly how many of them you have. So, if the facts are against you, get more of them and turn them into statistics... then they will say whatever you want."
    Then I went home and took a shower.


  11. #11
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    Default Re: Electromagnetic fields, power lines and cancer

    Quote Originally Posted by gary carroll View Post
    Then I went home and took a shower.
    Still didn't feel "clean" did you?

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  12. #12
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    Default Re: Electromagnetic fields, power lines and cancer

    Quote Originally Posted by gary carroll View Post
    I would consider EMF that can generate induced current that can shock you to your knees to be outside of "electromagnetic field you encounter in daily life", which was a condition I cited.
    I would urge someone who gets shocked to their knees to alter their life so that this becomes true.
    At one project I am inspecting, some of the buildings are nearly under the high-tension overhead power wires, on two of the buildings, when I was on a high-lift to get on the roof, I would get a shock whenever I touched the drip edge ... I am glad that I was not on a ladder (3 story roofs).

    Of course, though, an aluminum ladder may have grounded out the drip edge and not given a shock, whereas the lift cage was on a machine with rubber tires and thus not grounded out.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  13. #13
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    Default Re: Electromagnetic fields, power lines and cancer

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Wood View Post
    Mr. Patterson no they do not and this is a sensitive area not to be played with.
    As for duping the public go find me any InterNachi Inspector that has 3 years and taken all the training InterNachi has to offer. Guess what! You will not find one as it is next to impossible.
    What's a sinsitive area? Duping the public or certifications?

    Your statement makes little sense.. What does 3 years and all of NACHI's education have to do with anything. I never brought up a word about Nicks education offerings, in fact I have prased some of them at times.

    Nick has a history of making up certifications just for marketing.. i.e. Certified Inspector and Certified Master Inspector come to mind.... When all you have to do is promiss you have satisfied the requirements and then pay the fee for the various certifications, and those certifications have never, never been veted or approved by any third party as being legitement then you just have just duped the public..

    It's all smoke and mirrors with no substance when it comes to NACHI's certifications, take the online session and download your new certification. No experience is needed! Kevin, this is what upsets so many experienced inspectors who work hard at our profession and attend classroom education around the country.

    IMVHO, anyone who claims to be Master needs to have 10+ years in the profession and completed over 3,000 inspections, then we can talk about various testing and national code certifications. This is what I would call a Master. Just being able to claim you are a master because you have 1000 hours of CE education is just lying to yourself.

    Last edited by Scott Patterson; 05-16-2014 at 05:58 PM.
    Scott Patterson, ACI
    Spring Hill, TN
    www.traceinspections.com

  14. #14
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    Default Re: Electromagnetic fields, power lines and cancer

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Wood View Post
    Well this last part about 10 years I can agree with, if the Home Inspection Industry was not run by a bunch of yo yo's for profit just less than 4 years ago. Those days are over and if someone is not taking the education provided by InterNachi or the current info from Carson Dunlop than they should not be inspecting period. Btw in some areas that number you propose would be impossible to achieve with what is needed currently to satisfy the Clients of today.
    That also would be the type of Home Inspector I would caution to stay away from.
    Now if you pointed out that the HI's you talk about balanced that with 1500 hrs in CE than I would probably accept that.
    Keven, no I and pretty much everyone outside of INACHI do not consider approvals by the various buracratic governments a credentialing authority. To get programs approved in the vast majority of the states, you fillout their forms, submit the program or an outline and for many you pay the fee. I myself have several CE programs approved, it ain't that difficult but it does take time.

    Every year ASHI gets upwards of 30+ new courses approved by all of the licensing states (even those that require proctored testing) for InspectionWorld Philadelphia January 6-9, 2015. It takes several months for the education staff to get this acomplished, but this is how ASHI is able to put on the largest home inspector education event every year for the past 37 years.

    Scott Patterson, ACI
    Spring Hill, TN
    www.traceinspections.com

  15. #15
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    Default Re: Electromagnetic fields, power lines and cancer

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Wood View Post
    So according to what you say Inspection world Jan 6-9 will cost what?
    The training provided is for advanced Home Inspectors or is this to get more to join?
    More important, Who will be teaching the CE?
    Kevin, have you ever been to a large educational event with 600 to 900 home inspectors? Just the contacts that are made and relationships that are built are worth the price of admission alone.

    InspectionWorld Philadelphia January 6-9, 2015 is broken up into several education "tracks", everything from the newbee, business, advanced technical, marketing, basics, etc... The sessions are taught by a individuals, some I'm sure you know or have heard of over the years. I think last year at IW they had around 50 presenters over the several days of IW. I attended a session this year that was thought by engineers from Square D, it was very enlightening....

    Sure, it cost to attend. Good presentations don't come cheap nor do the places to hold the sessions and the other events associated with IW. They will post the fee in September when registration opens, past years it's been $450 to $525 from what I recall. The also offer pre conference sessions, this year I took an ICC session by Douglas Hansen that cost I think $200.

    IW is open to anyone who wants to attend, it makes no difference of your affiliation. I would say about 15-20% are not affiliated with ASHI or any organization.

    Last edited by Scott Patterson; 05-17-2014 at 05:09 PM.
    Scott Patterson, ACI
    Spring Hill, TN
    www.traceinspections.com

  16. #16
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    Default Re: Electromagnetic fields, power lines and cancer

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Wood View Post
    No thanks! January is the worst time for me anyways and I prefer not to be educated by regular everyday Home Inspectors but prefer to have the best education I can find. InterNachi has been the best education and yes I have been at gatherings for Training for years. Never has it been worth me spending the money to go. Everything comes to me now from all contacts I have via web.
    I get all I can take from know it alls on the mbs.
    Kevin, you're just a special person... Bless your heart......

    Scott Patterson, ACI
    Spring Hill, TN
    www.traceinspections.com

  17. #17
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    Default Re: Electromagnetic fields, power lines and cancer

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Wood View Post
    No thanks! January is the worst time for me anyways and I prefer not to be educated by regular everyday Home Inspectors but prefer to have the best education I can find. InterNachi has been the best education and yes I have been at gatherings for Training for years. Never has it been worth me spending the money to go. Everything comes to me now from all contacts I have via web.
    I get all I can take from know it alls on the mbs.

    Kevin I understand.
    Some of us know everything, and sharing our experiences face to face with other inspectors is just a waste of time and money.
    Seeing your posts /debates on the nacho site shows us how much more you know than the rest of us.
    Just wish that you would share your knowledge some more on this site, and not disappear when you are challenged here by the lowly non CMIers

    Phoenix AZ Resale Home, Mobile Home, New Home Warranty Inspections. ASHI Certified Inspector #206929 Arizona Certified Inspector # 38440
    www.inspectaz.com

  18. #18
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    Default Re: Electromagnetic fields, power lines and cancer

    Yes Kevin you are very special.

    Remain weak, and you will not be able to repel the forces.

    So far I have not benefited anything from you, and I live in Ontario. Yes extreme differences remain and that is why some men are brave while others join Nacho because they are weak and cannot separate fact from fiction.

    Remain weak Obi-won-kenobi - may the electromagnetic force be with you. If not, move closer to the hydro transmission lines!


  19. #19
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    Default Re: Electromagnetic fields, power lines and cancer

    Kevin

    Do you really think getting booted from the Nacho forum is a dishonour?
    Its a badge of honour. The crap and filth that permeate that forum is a disgrace, and that disgrace starts right at the top and trickles on down.

    The forum rules are just window dressing as are all the other false rules foisted on the public as a legitimate professional body. But then you could never appreciate that since you never belonged to a professional association.


  20. #20
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    Default Re: Electromagnetic fields, power lines and cancer

    What threat, there were no threats posted by me on the Nacho forum!
    So don't come here and spread false facts!


  21. #21
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    Default Re: Electromagnetic fields, power lines and cancer

    Yes sir; I'll get on that right away!


  22. #22
    Ted Menelly's Avatar
    Ted Menelly Guest

    Default Re: Electromagnetic fields, power lines and cancer

    Wow

    Not sure what this means but

    Those days are over and if someone is not taking the education provided by InterNachi or the current info from Carson Dunlop than they should not be inspecting period. Btw in some areas that number you propose would be impossible to achieve with what is needed currently to satisfy the Clients of today.

    And you would not take a course"from another home inspector ?????? I see, so no one that is inspecting, and I guess that would be you included, knows enough to teach or learn something to teach another home inspector.

    I keep appoligizing for this but here goes anyway. I do not and will not in the know future be part of a home inspector organization so I have no dog in this fight .....But in saying that. Why is it Scott mentioned Internachi and all you had to do is attack everyone that does not belong to INTERNACHI or take their course (online) seem to amount to anything.

    You are such an ignorant man that you have no flippin idea that you just insulted every single home inspector out there that does n ot belong to INTERNACHI. And you have no idea that you contradict yourself about everything you said and have in the past.

    So the way you put it

    I am a loser because I do not belong to INTERNACHI. I am ignorant because I have taken almost all of my education in a classroom from either other inspectors or electricians or HVAC, foundation, plumbing etc etc etc experts so I am an ignorant fool, I should not be inspecting. I ma the man you would tell all your clients to stay away from. Oh, yeah. My multiple decades of inspecting and to many thousands of inspections mean nothing.

    Wow. I don't own a gun but I am going to go get one and just shoot myself between the eyes for being such a loser.

    You do know that "your" GOD used to be a home inspector....right. You do know he makes a fortune off his home inspectors, vendors and real estate ventures.....right? Quite the non profit eh.

    Geeez


  23. #23
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    Default Re: Electromagnetic fields, power lines and cancer

    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Menelly View Post
    Wow

    Not sure what this means but

    Those days are over and if someone is not taking the education provided by InterNachi or the current info from Carson Dunlop than they should not be inspecting period. Btw in some areas that number you propose would be impossible to achieve with what is needed currently to satisfy the Clients of today.
    Ordinary inspectors cannot be expected to understand what he says because of his advanced and superior education.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Menelly View Post
    You are such an ignorant man that you have no flippin idea that you just insulted every single home inspector out there that does n ot belong to INTERNACHI.
    I disagree. Because of his advanced training only available to nochi members, he is completely aware that he is insulting.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Menelly View Post
    Geeez
    I agree

    ' correct a wise man and you gain a friend... correct a fool and he'll bloody your nose'.

  24. #24
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    Default Re: Electromagnetic fields, power lines and cancer

    Jethro
    I have a suggestion for you:
    Before you get all 3000 merit badges iNachi has to offer, go back and finish the 6th grade.
    It will be hard, but in time you will learn how to read and write, and maybe even form a sentence.

    ' correct a wise man and you gain a friend... correct a fool and he'll bloody your nose'.

  25. #25
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    Default Re: Electromagnetic fields, power lines and cancer

    Rick,

    KW seems to be your JA ... pause ... take a deep breath ... exhale slowly ... feel better?

    Now ignore ... no, I didn't say snore ... ignore that skeeter buzzing around your head.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  26. #26
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    Default Re: Electromagnetic fields, power lines and cancer

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Rick,

    KW seems to be your JA ... pause ... take a deep breath ... exhale slowly ... feel better?
    NO
    When diplomacy and patience doesn't work, wit and sarcasm just feels good.

    ' correct a wise man and you gain a friend... correct a fool and he'll bloody your nose'.

  27. #27
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    Default Re: Electromagnetic fields, power lines and cancer

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Wood View Post
    Words of wit and sarcasm may get me Mr. Cantrell but everything is different when you are face to face.
    You are right, there are real people on the other end of my computer.

    I do offer this as real advice;
    The more someone says how much education, training, and experience they have, the less everyone else believes them.

    ' correct a wise man and you gain a friend... correct a fool and he'll bloody your nose'.

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