Thread: The lawyers have already jumped on the bandwagon

Granite Countertops Source of Dangerous Radon Emissions


Granite Countertops Source of Dangerous Radon Emissions
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Radon, the second leading cause of lung cancer after smoking, may be leaking from your countertops, if you have granite. According to recent news reports, more and more concerned consumers and radon inspectors are contacting the environmental protection agency with radon measurements several times higher than those considered to be acceptable background levels. The radon is emanating from the granite.

Researchers currently studying the most commonly used granite in kitchen countertops have found that all the 55 samples they've tested emit radon radiation at higher than background levels. The samples were collected from US fabricators and wholesalers.

Radon is a radioactive gas that naturally occurs from traces of uranium in soil and rock. It can be found at varying levels around the world. In outdoor air, radon is present in low concentrations. However, in indoor air or enclosed spaces, radon can pose a long-term health risk because the levels can increase.

The Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) has stated that homeowners need to be concerned if the radon gas levels in their homes exceed 4 picocuries per litre of air. Some granite countertops do in fact let off far more than that with reports as high as 100 picocuries per litre. Consequently, the U.S. Surgeon General and EPA recommend that all homes be tested.

Following that advice, four counties in central Nebraska recently sent out test kits to its residents. Amazingly, 75 percent of the homes in those locations were found to have radon levels higher than 4 picocuries per liter. In Adams County the average level was nearly 9 picocuries, considerably higher than levels considered safe.

The Risk of Living with Radon
As radon gas decays it turns into radioactive particles that can get trapped in the lungs just from breathing. As the particles continue to break down, they release small bursts of energy. This can damage lung tissue and lead to lung cancer over the course of your lifetime. The amount of time between exposure and the onset of the disease may be many years.

Like other environmental pollutants, there is some uncertainty about the magnitude of radon health risks. However, the EPA states that they know more about radon risks than risks from most other cancer-causing substances, because estimates of radon risks are based on studies of cancer in humans, specifically underground miners. "Scientists are more certain about risks from radon than risks from most other cancer-causing substances," they state.

Exposure to Radon And Lung Cancer
According to the EPA, "Lung cancer kills thousands of Americans every year. Smoking, radon, and secondhand smoke are the leading causes of lung cancer. Although lung cancer can be treated, the survival rate is one of the lowest for those with cancer. From the time of diagnosis, between 11 and 15 percent of those afflicted will live beyond five years, depending upon demographic factors. In many cases lung cancer can be prevented; this is especially true for radon." Radon exposure is the leading cause of lung cancer in non-smokers.


Granite Countertop Radon Emissions Legal Help
If you or a loved one has suffered ill health effects, injury or damages from radon exposure, please click the link below to send your complaint to a lawyer to evaluate your claim at no cost or obligation.


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This is probably the "mold is gold" lawyers that have been waiting in the wings for the next greatest scare.
Expect to see the flames fanned every chance they get.
Long on hype and short on facts.

Pretty soon the "Mold is Gold" guys will take down their "Mold Certifications" and hang up "Granite Countertop Radon Certifications" and buy Geiger counters, attesting that 'x' readings are 'not good and should go to the lab for analysis', and state 'we are not responsible, we only do sampling, Pro Radon Lab does the analysis'.

We really need to be charging minimum fees in the $1000's. This kind of stuff is going to make business really interesting. Just how safe is the mildewcide in the paint? What if kids ingest it? What about the plastic in faucets - is it affecting the water? Are faucets from foreign manufacturers tested to make sure there isn't an excessive amount of lead in the solder, if they have any metal parts in them? What about tile flooring and walls - is there any Radon being given off from them? Do foreign-made nails meet the same shear strengths as American made nails? What about holding power - how do they compare? Is the copper wiring in the cables 100 percent copper, or are there trace metals in it? Does that affect the rating of the conductors?

Infrared inspection on counter tops for Radon Emissions.

I am just curious - has any body ever pointed their IR imaging unit at a real estate agent?

It would just show as a big blue spot

And what do I do now with all these baby pacifiers I made from granite?

Rick

Exhibit A for the Lawyers

Here in the NYC metro area we have been testing for radon on Home Inspections since 1988. This is not the first time that this issue has hit the media, one expert from Columbia University says its the third time this has come around. The fact that the recent study cited in may news reports was actually funded by the manufacturers of the competing counter top materials (solid stone, corian, etc..) shows us where this "old news" is coming from.
Whatever the individual Home Inspectors technical opinion on this matter may be, however, the markeplace's opinion is formed by these media reports ("Perception is Reality", however skewed it may be). We all must deal with the clients and others who ask questions about this, or any other issue about houses that they see in the media.
In my opinion, Home Inspectors should sieze this opportunity to conduct more than one radon test in a home with granite counter tops beyond the lowest livible area (i.e. the basement and the kitchen, or in any other space where granite counter tops are installed). Make money on the media frenzy, for as long as it lasts.
Lastly, a gieger counter reading does not give the radon reading in the atmosphere of the house, so you don't need to buy one. Use EPA approved radon test kits and approved State testing lab (if required in your State) and follow the instructions.

Originally Posted by Evan Grugett

In my opinion, Home Inspectors should sieze this opportunity to conduct more than one radon test in a home with granite counter tops beyond the lowest livible area (i.e. the basement and the kitchen, or in any other space where granite counter tops are installed). Make money on the media frenzy, for as long as it lasts.

At what level would the results of this additional radon test be a concern to the client? What is the basis for picking that value?

Sounds like mold is gold to me. Test it and charge the client whether it gives the client any meaningful information or not.

Originally Posted by Evan Grugett

Make money on the media frenzy, for as long as it lasts.

Originally Posted by Brandon Chew

What is the basis for picking that value?

Originally Posted by Jim Luttrall

Sounds like mold is gold to me.

I believe Evan hit the nail on the head, and that is precisely the reason those HIs who jumped on the Mold is Gold bandwagon jumped on it ...

Originally Posted by Evan Grugett

Make money on the media frenzy

Don't worry or be concerned about whether or not there is any "real value" to what you are doing, just *DO IT* ... after all, the media has created this opportunity and heaven forbid any self respecting HI miss an opportunity to rip their clients off.

I suppose we should stay away from older office buildings with granite facades and definitely stay away from cemetarys with all the granite headstones.

Brandon,
The way I handle this situation is to let the client call the shots. I may have arranged to conduct a "standard" radon test in the basement, for my standard fee, at the time the inspection is booked.
If the granite counter tops are present in the home, I bring up the matter with the client and offer to conduct one or more additional tests in those locations. If the client is concerned, they will do the test. If not they won't. I offered it to them, and make a note of same. That way it can't come back to haunt me. I don't push it on them.
Houses in this market area commonly sell for more than $700K and so a few more sheckles for another radon test is not going to kill the client. Around here, realtors and attorneys are hesitant about telling a client not to do something as far as specialst discovery, to cover their own behinds. I personally don't care what the agent thinks.

Homes with granite countertops will have the safest food there is?

Food irradiation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


In mid 1990's I collected rock from my climbs. I have two expensive Femto's. I bagged the granite from Oklahoma and ran a two day test. 45 picos. Did not beleive it so repeated test with Honeywell. Same. When granite started becoming popular I wondered how long it would take to sensationalize it. It took 8 years.

I need granite for my home. If you know someone taking out their tops tell em delever them to my front yard. (intact)

Originally Posted by John Cahill

Homes with granite countertops will have the safest food there is?

Food irradiation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


In mid 1990's I collected rock from my climbs. I have two expensive Femto's. I bagged the granite from Oklahoma and ran a two day test. 45 picos. Did not beleive it so repeated test with Honeywell. Same. When granite started becoming popular I wondered how long it would take to sensationalize it. It took 8 years.

I need granite for my home. If you know someone taking out their tops tell em delever them to my front yard. (intact)

Interesting, what protocol was used when you measured "45picos"

Originally Posted by Michael Larson

Interesting, what protocol was used when you measured "45picos"

Well it certainly was not EPA. Just put 3 soccer ball sized pieces of granite in a double lined hefty trash bag; zip locked and tested. I have not read how to test c-tops. I would guess two ways
1 put meter on counter and cover with a bowl. (higher results expected)
2 put meter on counter in still air
3 put meter on counter with modest air flow (like ac)
4 put meter a variety of feet away. (direct, 2, 4, 6, 8)?

I quit radon years ago (not much in Dallas). Am digging out Femtos just to do fun stuff. I am not interested in selling the service. At least not until EPA or TDA develops a protocol.

It would be cool to get a c-top with a high level then figure out to do a bacteria culture test on it. Not sure how to do that. It would be cool if it killed salmonella.

"At what level would the results of this additional radon test be a concern to the client? What is the basis for picking that value?"

There's a fairly simple way to test for this that doesn't involve geiger counters, flux-to-dose equasions or anything else fancy. The question we are trying to answer is "Is the stone contributing to the radiation level in the house?" I place a radon monitor in the basement, as usual, and then another in the kitchen. Since most "normal" radon problems originate from the soil, basement levels are normally higher than 1st floor levels. If this 2-test method shows more radon in the kitchen than in the basement, there is a reason for concern. End of inspector's job, right there. No hype, no lawyers, no media, just common sense.

So far, there are no standards for converting gamma from the stone into a dose equivalency. It would seem simple, but such a standard will have to take into account the amount of stone surface area, the variation in radiation from one spot on the counter to another, how much time one is in range, what's the range, what's the energy level of the particular gamma, and how much of the gamma being measured is background from other natural sources. We have answers for most of those questions already for radon, so measuring the radon makes more sense to me.

And make sure your monitors show a recent calibration date; the public is getting smart and starting to ask about that. Too bad they're not smart enough to stick with formica, the best counter surface ever made.

Detroit Matt

AARST Statement on Radon and Granite Countertops(PDF)

Includes risks and test methods

Originally Posted by Matt Bezanson

Too bad they're not smart enough to stick with formica, the best counter surface ever made.

By whose standards? The low budget builders?

What about the workers making the cabinets and cutting/gluing/routing the laminate and the glue vapors?

I'll have my granite any day over that. My wife wanted Corian but everyone (including myself) told here 'why Corian when you can have granite', so she agreed to granite, and she picked out the color (radioactive red is what I think they are now calling it ).

Ohhhhh goody!

All of thi$ hot granite controver$y ha$ all the making$ for a GREAT vacation in Mexico, thi$ winter!

I would like to thank the $en$ationali$t$ in the new$ media for unnece$$arily $caring the willie$ out of American pleb$ with p$eudo$cientific hyperbole, and once again rai$ing the lu$ciou$ $pecter of radon once again.

A$ the fund$ that u$ed to pour in over the danger$ of radon $lowly died out until the new$ paper$ created a $care about overhead power line$ which $lowly di$$olved into better fund$ from the danger$ of microwave oven$ (which trickled down until the toxic mould i$$ue), but now, unfortunately, people are realizing that too i$ a bunch of hooey…. Well, I wa$ $tarting to get worried that I may have to get a real job. After all, without bunk, what’$ a debunker to do?

THANK YOU radon in granite…

2009 i$ going to be great!

Cheer$!
CaoimhÃ*n P. Connell
Foren$ic Indu$trial Hygieni$t
www.foren$ic-application$.com

(The opinion$ expre$$ed here are exclu$ively my per$onal opinion$ and do not nece$$arily reflect my profe$$ional opinion, opinion of my employer, agency, peer$, or profe$$ional affiliate$. The above po$t i$ for information only and doe$ not reflect profe$$ional advice and i$ not intended to $upercede the profe$$ional advice of other$.)

AMDG

CaoimhÃ*n

You never cease to enlighten and crack me up all at once. I’ve been following this fiasco since it first started and have enjoyed your other posts about this and radon in general. I find it very amusing, sometimes confusing, but a bit sad all the same. I agree with the guys above about the "mold is gold" syndrome, that this follows through on, being an easy way to rip off scared home buyers & owners alike.

I continue to offer radon testing upon request, but would be embarrassed to ask a client if they wanted the counter tops tested. Why not the gypsum and the brick while we're at it? It’s hard enough talking them out of mold testing when they see a spot in the bathroom, or the basement smells musty because it's full of old cardboard boxes on shag carpet. And I’m a “Certified Mold Inspector� too. (Hey, I had to get "certified" so I could help dispel the myth with some "authority") I once pointed my MD friend, who was the TV news doc in Orlando at the time, toward an interview with one of the big “mold experts� when that first started. Really interesting backpedaling during the ensuing video that got stopped pretty short.

Always a pleasure. Someday I hope we can share a cold draught in Boulder.

Ross

P.S. I wish you'd post same to ASHI forum if not done already. (a bit behind reading forums this week.) Seems some guys there are just catching wind of this.

And John, if your front yard starts getting full of counters, feel free to send some my way for the basement finish. I'm a little low on radon down there with that darn passive ventilation under the structural slab.

Exposure To Low Levels Of Radon Appears To Reduce The Risk Of Lung Cancer, New Study Finds

ScienceDaily (Mar. 26, 2008) — Exposure to levels of radon gas typically found in 90 percent of American homes appears to reduce the risk of developing lung cancer by as much as 60 percent, according to a study published in the March issue of the journal Health Physics. ....

Read the whole article here...
Exposure To Low Levels Of Radon Appears To Reduce The Risk Of Lung Cancer, New Study Finds

The researchers admit that their findings may not be "regarded as definitive", but at least it seems like an unbiased study.

So...now I'm really confused. Should I recommend adding granite when it's not present? How long before lawyers start suing because of low levels, or the absence, of radon?

Originally Posted by Richard Moore

So...now I'm really confused. Should I recommend adding granite when it's not present?

I know your question is rhetorical but I would like to answer it with a question of my own.

How much exposure to radiation should be considered "healthy" for your lung tissue?

(In my world less exposure to radiation is better.)

Originally Posted by Bruce Breedlove

I know your question is rhetorical but I would like to answer it with a question of my own.

How much exposure to radiation should be considered "healthy" for your lung tissue?

(In my world less exposure to radiation is better.)

And, initially, I would have thought the same thing. Obviously, extremely high levels have been proven to be hazardous. No question about that. But, we are certainly all exposed to very low levels every day from various sources. The study I posted would seem to suggest that low doses, almost like a vaccine, may, somehow, actually increase our immunity to lung cancer. However, it would be a gross understatement to say that the jury is still out on this subject! I didn't post it as a "fact".

Yes, my question was tongue-in-cheek rhetorical. Radon isn't (or at least hasn't been) an issue in this area. To my knowledge, no HIs test for it around here. If I'm forced to jump on a bandwagon, I want to make sure it's heading in the right direction and not just because a lawyer or someone else with a conflict of interest says it's a plush ride!

Since we are talking about lung cancer (that's the health concern with radon) and using that logic, I wonder how many cigarettes a person should smoke every day to get some immunity from lung cancer and have a lower risk of lung cancer than a non-smoker.

Maybe one puff a week? As I'm sure you are well aware, I don't have an answer to that. My wife is a microbiologist but doesn't specialize in oncology, and I'm a simple home inspector.

But...let me ask you a question. There are low levels of carcinogens in the air we all breathe. Would someone who was raised in a sterile bubble for their first 25 years or so, be more susceptible to lung cancer once "released" from that bubble than the average Joe who has breathed regular air all his life? I can assure you he would be more prone to many viral and bacterial diseases.

I don't have the answer to that one either, but I do know the human immune system is an amazingly complex and "adjustable" machine that is still a long, long way from being fully understood, and I can see the possibility of low doses of almost anything boosting the systems resistance. I stress the word "possibility". In the case of radon at very low levels, the empirical data, seems to be either lacking or conflicting. I'm really just playing Devil's advocate and actually staying firmly on the fence for now. I'm open to jumping off either side if I see the right, unequivocal evidence.

Good spot to be Richard

Originally Posted by Bruce Breedlove

I know your question is rhetorical but I would like to answer it with a question of my own.

How much exposure to radiation should be considered "healthy" for your lung tissue?

(In my world less exposure to radiation is better.)

I just read this article and thought it applies well to the radon issue. We have been told for years that drinking caffine is bad for you, too much caffine is bad for you, then wait a minute... some caffine is actually good for you.
Read on and think about the radon issue.

Published: 8/21/08, 11:29 AM EDT
By Leslie Garcia

Mmmm. Can't get enough of that caffeine! We like our caffeine, specifically in coffee, so much surely it's gotta be bad for us.
Well, yes and no. Here are some of coffee's contradictions.
1. The diuretic dilemma. Does coffee make you tinkle more? Not necessarily. Studies reviewed by the Center for Science in the Public Interest found that people who consumed beverages with 550 caffeine grams or less produced no more urine than when they drank the same amount of noncaffeinated beverages.
Take-away factor: Drinks containing usual doses of caffeine are hydrating. Like water, they contribute to the body's water needs.
2. The heart-disease head-scratcher. Is caffeine's stimulant effect a danger for heart patients, especially those who also have high blood pressure?
A couple of studies show otherwise, including the Iowa Women's Healthy Study. Among 27,000 women followed for 15 years, those who drank one to three cups of coffee daily reduced their risk of heart disease by 24 percent.
Take-away factor: The benefits diminish a bit after three cups. Sip accordingly.
3. The cancer conundrum. An international review of 66 studies last year showed coffee had little if any effect on developing kidney or pancreatic cancer. Plus a study of 59,000 women in Sweden found no connection between caffeine consumption and breast cancer.
Take-away factor: Harvard University researchers who linked coffee drinking to pancreatic cancer later concluded perhaps smoking was the reason.
4. The high blood pressure brouhaha. Yes, caffeine produces a slight temporary rise in blood pressure. But when 155,000 nurses were studied, those who didn't drink coffee were no more likely than those who did to develop hypertension.
Take-away factor: A higher risk was found by those who drank colas.
5. The weight-loss letdown. The good news: Caffeine speeds up metabolism; 100 milligrams help burn an extra 75 to 100 calories a day. The bad? In a 12-year study of 58,000 health-care professionals, those who increased caffeine consumption, alas, gained weight.
Take-away factor: Let's hope that's not because they got their caffeine from chocolate in extra-size candy bars.
In closing: Consuming 200 milligrams of caffeine a day, the amount in about 16 ounces of coffee, tends to lead to a better sense of well-being, happiness, energy and alertness.
SOURCE: The New York Times

I think the "I'm on the fence until I know more" position is about the best a person can do until all the facts are nailed down on radon.

Howdy All!

The article linked by Richard Moore is not new. Most of the valid studies that have been performed have all demonstrated the same thing – as radon goes up in an home (from non-detect to moderate levels) the risk of lung cancer goes down.

I have been referencing many of those studies for at least the last 20 years. In fact, I was at the international symposium in 1988 wherein Bernie Cohen (1) challenged the fatally flawed model used by the EPA, and without which, you don’t see a risk. The info is not new, is not surprising, and pretty much is what the global scientific community has been stating for almost two decades.

It is for this very reason that, there is not one single valid scientific study yet performed on the face of the Earth has conclusively demonstrated that radon, as commonly seen in residences, increases the risk of cancer. Not one. Not one. That is why even the EPA has acknowledged the fact in their literature (albeit buried deep in the bowels of the scientific stuff that normal, sane people never read).

Gosh, guys! Didja think I wuz making this stuff up!? I leave the fabrication stuff to Al Gerhart!

Now ... about global warming...

Oh, I can resist:

The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary.

-HL Mencken

(PS not that I think much of Mencken, either).

Cheers!
Caoimhín P. Connell
Forensic Industrial Hygienist
Forensic Industrial Hygiene

References:

(1) Cohen BL., Correlation Between Mean Radon Levels And Lung Cancer Rates in U.S. Counties: A Test of the Linear-No Threshold Theory. Given at the 1988 USEPA Symposium on Radon and Radon Reduction Technology, Denver, Colorado

(The opinions expressed here are exclusively my personal opinions and do not necessarily reflect my professional opinion, opinion of my employer, agency, peers, or professional affiliates. The above post is for information only and does not reflect professional advice and is not intended to supercede the professional advice of others.)

AMDG

Originally Posted by Caoimhín P. Connell

I leave the fabrication stuff to Al Gerhart!

.
Well Now Mr. Connell,

What we need to clear up is what do you know about Brazilian Hit Men???
( and all of their co-conspirators! )
.