Thread: Flashing above door

Do you think this flashing is acceptable?

Thanks,

Ryan

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Originally Posted by Ryan Stouffer

Do you think this flashing is acceptable?

Ryan,

Where do you get these wonderful flashing pictures?

Umm. No, that would be wrong-o.

Gunnar, it seems like it is the luck of the draw for me today with flashing. Thanks for your help.

Is this a manufactured home where the homeowner has installed an exterior door on the outside of the wall framing?

The original part looks fine from what I can see. The rest of it, not so much. The rest of it being everything outside the original wall plane.

Bruce, the home was built in 1900. I am not sure what they did with this door. I could not tell.

Does anyone have a preference for metal flashing above doors and windows as oppossed to paper taped flashing?

Keith G.

I was unaware that Park City was located in Pennsylvania. Huh . .

Originally Posted by Keith Laufenberg

Does anyone have a preference for metal flashing above doors and windows as oppossed to paper taped flashing?

Keith G.

It depends on the application. Sometimes both, but always (IMO) the butyl flashing.

Seeing as u asked, I prefer metal drip caps. In my opinion the pdf document is not the preferred method.

Originally Posted by Raymond Wand

Seeing as u asked, I prefer metal drip caps. In my opinion the pdf document is not the preferred method.

Metal drip caps above doors and windows with brick molding is in many cases your only choice, which is why I said it depends on the application.

With most (if not all) widows and doors that have a nailing fin/flange, the methods in the PDF document is not only preferred but is required as part of the installation instructions.

http://web.pella.com/supportcenter/i...ts/V784327.pdf

Interesting. I have yet to see metal drip caps installed above windows and doors with brick.

On the cover - IRC - NRC-CNRC

Thanks for the pdf.

For whatever it is worth, the IRC, as well as leading siding manufacturers, requires metal flashing at the protruding trim above window and door openings:

IRC R703.8 Flashing. Approved corrosion-resistive flashing shall be provided in the exterior wall envelope in such a manner as to prevent entry of water into the wall cavity or penetration of water to the building structural framing components. The flashing shall extend to the surface of the exterior wall finish and shall be installed to prevent water from reentering the exterior wall envelope. Approved corrosion resistant flashings shall be installed at all of the following locations:
1. At top of all exterior window and door openings in such a manner as to be leak-proof, except that self-flashing windows having a continuous lap of not less than 1-1/8 inches (28 mm) over the sheathing material around the perimeter of the opening, including corners, do not require additional flashing; jamb flashing may also be omitted when specifically approved by the building official.
2. At the intersection of chimneys or other masonry construction with frame or stucco walls, with projecting lips on both sides under stucco copings.
3. Under and at the ends of masonry, wood or metal copings and sills.
4. Continuously above all projecting wood trim.
5. Where exterior porches, decks or stairs attach to a wall or floor assembly of wood-frame construction.
6. At wall and roof intersections.
7. At built-in gutters. . .

Originally Posted by Raymond Wand

Interesting. I have yet to see metal drip caps installed above windows and doors with brick.

....and neither have I.

I agree that metal drip cap should always be installed when the brick molding/moulding/exterior trim extends beyond the siding.

I also believe that the butyl flashing tape should always be installed (on windows and doors that have nailing fins) weather the trim extends beyond the exterior finish or not.

From the link you posted I believe we are on the same page, just having a little trouble communicating that to each other.

Originally Posted by chris mcintyre

It depends on the application. Sometimes both, ...

Originally Posted by Raymond Wand

Seeing as u asked, I prefer metal drip caps. In my opinion the pdf document is not the preferred method.

Usually BOTH is not only the preferred method but the only method (i.e. is required).

Originally Posted by chris mcintyre

Metal drip caps above doors and windows with brick molding is in many cases your only choice, which is why I said it depends on the application.

Originally Posted by Raymond Wand

Interesting. I have yet to see metal drip caps installed above windows and doors with brick.

Think of the lintel above the doors and windows, with its through wall flashing above the lintel, as the drip cap and membrane flashing as the through wall flashing is required to extend from the wall surface vertically down and out over the lintel.

Originally Posted by A.D. Miller

For whatever it is worth, the IRC, as well as leading siding manufacturers, requires metal flashing at the protruding trim above window and door openings:

IRC R703.8 Flashing. Approved corrosion-resistive flashing

4. Continuously above all projecting wood trim.

Note that "approved corrosion-resistive flashing" includes the membrane flashing material.

Also not that item 4. SPECIFICALLY addresses "wood trim".

Originally Posted by chris mcintyre

I agree that metal drip cap should always be installed when the brick molding/moulding/exterior trim extends beyond the siding.

It's called "lintel with through wall flashing".

Originally Posted by chris mcintyre

From the link you posted I believe we are on the same page, just having a little trouble communicating that to each other.

The link posted seems to show BOTH the drip cap AND the membrane flashing.

Thanks. I usually use both; figuring it's probably worth the extra expense but I'm seriously considering skipping the metal above sliding glass doors because I have eight sliding glass doors and it does get expensive; any thoughts as to why I should or should not skip it? Only two of the doors are actually not covered by a balcony so I'll probably just do the two outside ones with both metal, header only, and tape.

Keith G.

Originally Posted by Keith Laufenberg

......... any thoughts as to why I should or should not skip it?

Keith G.

Kieth,
I think that if you read through the post, both are important, and in many instances required. Also you have given us no information on what type of doors (vinyl, clad, wood), what type of trim (if any), or what is the exterior finish (siding, brick, stucco, etc...). Got pictures?

Oh yea, just curious, why do you sign your post Keith G.?

JP

Think of the lintel above the doors and windows, with its through wall flashing above the lintel, as the drip cap and membrane flashing as the through wall flashing is required to extend from the wall surface vertically down and out over the lintel.

Maybe I missed something, but I have never seen a drip cap or any sort of flashing over a lintel on brick venneer or double brick. Is the flashing something one should see or is it hidden? Or could it be a regional thing?

Thanks,

Originally Posted by Raymond Wand

Maybe I missed something, but I have never seen a drip cap or any sort of flashing over a lintel on brick venneer or double brick. Is the flashing something one should see or is it hidden? Or could it be a regional thing?

Raymond,

The through wall flashing is required from the WRB on the wall behind the air space, vertically down the wall to the lintel, then down the face of the lintel and across the top of the bottom of the lintel, and is supposed to go all the way to the face of the lintel.

However *very few* masonry contractor run the through wall flashing to the face of the lintel "because it looks bad when you can see the flashing hanging over the lintel", so they trim the through wall flashing back and hide it behind the mortar, which mean one does not see it, which means it *might not even be there*, or maybe it only goes half way across the top of the lintel, which means the mortar is resting directly on the steel lintel, which is why so many rust so prematurely (if properly flashed, they would not rust as there would be no contact with the corrosive mortar and would be protected from water by the flashing.

Link: Technical Note 28

(underlining and red are mine)
Flashing and Weep Holes
- Flashing and weep holes should be located above and as near to grade as possible at the bottom of the wall, above all openings, and beneath sills. Weep holes must be located in the head joints immediately above all flashing. Clear, open weep holes should be spaced no more than 24 in. (600 mm) o.c. Weep holes formed with wick materials or with tubes should be spaced at a maximum of 16 in. (400 mm) o.c. If the veneer continues below the flashing at the base of the wall, the space between the veneer and the backing should be grouted to the height of the flashing. Flashing should be securely fastened to the backing system and extend through the face of the brick veneer. The flashing should be turned up at least 8 in. (200 mm). Typical flashing details are shown in Figs. 2, 4 and 5. Flashing should be carefully installed to prevent punctures or tears. Where several pieces of flashing are required to flash a section of the veneer, the ends of the flashing should be lapped a minimum of 6 in. (150 mm) and the joints properly sealed. Where the flashing is not continuous, such as over and under openings in the wall, the ends of the flashing should be turned up into the head joint at least 2 in. (50 mm) to form a dam.

Unfortunately, their drawings are not in very good detail.

From the IRC.
- R703.7.5 Flashing. Flashing shall be located beneath the first course of masonry above finished ground level above the foundation wall or slab and at other points of support, including structural floors, shelf angles and lintels when masonry veneers are designed in accordance with Section R703.7. See Section R703.8 for additional requirements.

and

- R703.8 Flashing. Approved corrosion-resistant flashing shall be applied shingle-fashion in such a manner to prevent entry of water into the wall cavity or penetration of water to the building structural framing components. The flashing shall extend to the surface of the exterior wall finish. Approved corrosion-resistant flashings shall be installed at all of the following locations:
- - 1. Exterior window and door openings. Flashing at exterior window and door openings shall extend to the surface of the exterior wall finish or to the water-resistive barrier for subsequent drainage.
- - 2. At the intersection of chimneys or other masonry construction with frame or stucco walls, with projecting lips on both sides under stucco copings.
- - 3. Under and at the ends of masonry, wood or metal copings and sills.
- - 4. Continuously above all projecting wood trim.
- - 5. Where exterior porches, decks or stairs attach to a wall or floor assembly of wood-frame construction.
- - 6. At wall and roof intersections.

- - 7. At built-in gutters.

Here's a link to the BIA.org technical notes-- they are all worth reading and referring to:

Technical Notes

Thanks Jerry and Brandon, much appreciated.

The "masons" here do not usually even install the flashing. And the AHJs, in their infinite wisdom, do not require them to do so.

The "masons" here do not usually even install the flashing.

Here as well. Once they are done with the install, they then add fake weep holes drilled half way through the veneer.

All I ever see are the weep holes above the lintel. Never any sign of flashing. Who's to know?

Originally Posted by Raymond Wand

All I ever see are the weep holes above the lintel. Never any sign of flashing. Who's to know?

RW: It is called "through-wall" flashing for a reason . . .

AHJ around here makes them hang the flashings before the brick goes up. Hardly ever see the flashing to the face of the brick. Sometimes just need to shine a light in the hole and look, scrape and cuss.

Chris,

They're all sliding glass doors; all on balconies covered by the other balcony above, all have hardee-board and trim, installed over 30 lb. felt. I used metal flashing over the door and windows and paper on the sides and bottom, left the bottom open for drainage on the first floor and have yet to do the others because I'm finishing the railings first.

Sorry it takes me so long to respond but I'm working 8-12 hrs. a day on this house.

Keith G. is because Gary is my middle name.

Keith G.

Originally Posted by Keith Laufenberg

..... all have hardee-board and trim, installed.....

Kieth, as has been mentioned above, products must be installed per the manufacture installation instructions, so as not to void the warranty.

http://www.jameshardie.com/pdf/best-...anada-trim.pdf


Good luck with your project.

Do you think this flashing is acceptable?

Thanks,

Ryan

UH, NO.
The more pertinent question is:
Why do you have to ask?

Well I just gotta ask. What's wrong with the flashing in the OP? I see vinyl flashing coming from behind the siding above the door and dumping into a gutter. The piece of 1X with vinyl tacked to it is probably to keep birds from nesting above the door or pine needles out of the gutter. If that piece was not there would there have been a question?

Look at the second picture. The cap flashing is not installed to or under the siding. water will run between the scabbed out trim and the original door trim. Where does it go? Will it rot..........I think so......

Originally Posted by Mike Schulz

Look at the second picture. The cap flashing is not installed to or under the siding. water will run between the scabbed out trim and the original door trim. Where does it go? Will it rot..........I think so......

Maybe I'm looking at it wrong. What I see is J-channel wrapped around the brick mold with a small piece of vinyl up under the front lip of the J-channel that is above the door. Unless the corners are not made correctly, which we can't see from the angle of the pic's, water will be channeled across the top to the sides and down. Looks like most of the vinyl siding I see.

MAYBE?? Maybe you're looking at it wrong???
WTF, man, if you were my inspector you'ld be off the property right after "well, this might be a problem."

Originally Posted by John Carroll

MAYBE?? Maybe you're looking at it wrong???
WTF, man, if you were my inspector you'ld be off the property right after "well, this might be a problem."

Without yelling, please explane how water would get behind the vinyl.

Originally Posted by Vern Heiler

Without yelling, please explane how water would get behind the vinyl.

Vern,

I see your problem - you are only looking at the potential for water getting behind the ... siding ...

You also need to look at the water getting behind the wood - which is also a requirement for being flashed. Where there is wood which project horizontally out from the wall, there needs to be a flashing over the top of the wood.

As shown, water will be directed down behind the upper right wood and down to the recess behind the front left wood trim.

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

Vern,

I see your problem - you are only looking at the potential for water getting behind the ... siding ...

You also need to look at the water getting behind the wood - which is also a requirement for being flashed. Where there is wood which project horizontally out from the wall, there needs to be a flashing over the top of the wood.

As shown, water will be directed down behind the upper right wood and down to the recess behind the front left wood trim.

Jerry, I see many decorative wood trims that are projections and are not flashed. Decorative trim above and around entry doors, and decorative shutters, never have flashing over them. The wood surfaces that are painted in the OP are no different than if they were painted siding surfaces, fully exposed to drain and dry. As long as the surfaces are painted, I do not see where moisture will collect or damage any more than on the top surface of a shutter.

Could you draw some lines pointing to the areas of concern?

Originally Posted by Vern Heiler

Jerry, I see many decorative wood trims that are projections and are not flashed. Decorative trim above and around entry doors, and decorative shutters, never have flashing over them. The wood surfaces that are painted in the OP are no different than if they were painted siding surfaces, fully exposed to drain and dry. As long as the surfaces are painted, I do not see where moisture will collect or damage any more than on the top surface of a shutter.

You are not saying that because you see something done all the time that makes it right, are you?

If so, why be in home inspections looking at things done wrong all the time? Why not just drive up and say "Yep, they do it that way all the time, so it's got to be right. That'll be 200 bucks. Thank you." then just drive away.

- R703.8 Flashing. Approved corrosion-resistant flashing shall be applied shingle-fashion in such a manner to prevent entry of water into the wall cavity or penetration of water to the building structural framing components. The flashing shall extend to the surface of the exterior wall finish. Approved corrosion-resistant flashings shall be installed at all of the following locations:

- - 1. Exterior window and door openings. Flashing at exterior window and door openings shall extend to the surface of the exterior wall finish or to the water-resistive barrier for subsequent drainage.
- - 2. At the intersection of chimneys or other masonry construction with frame or stucco walls, with projecting lips on both sides under stucco copings.
- - 3. Under and at the ends of masonry, wood or metal copings and sills.
- - 4. Continuously above all projecting wood trim.
- - 5. Where exterior porches, decks or stairs attach to a wall or floor assembly of wood-frame construction.
- - 6. At wall and roof intersections.

- - 7. At built-in gutters.

Could you draw some lines pointing to the areas of concern?

See attached. If you cannot see what it needs, I can go into greater detail, but ... I know you are smarter than what it would indicate if I had to go into a step-by-step detail to explain it.

This is the trim that makes me question "flashing required". Do you report these as needing flashing, and how do you flash this?

That pediment (scroll work) is OK to be open. Where that scroll sits on top of the crown molding the molding should have cap flashing under the siding turned out over the flat surface and bent down at the crown.

I have inspected a neighborhood that had the same detail and the cap flashing was missing. You can drive through the neighborhood and see the different repair work done to the tops from the flashing missing.

Originally Posted by Mike Schulz

That pediment (scroll work) is OK to be open. Where that scroll sits on top of the crown molding the molding should have cap flashing under the siding turned out over the flat surface and bent down at the crown.

I have inspected a neighborhood that had the same detail and the cap flashing was missing. You can drive through the neighborhood and see the different repair work done to the tops from the flashing missing.

Forgive me if I sound like a hard head, but didn't you just describe the OP picture?

No, The OP picture has scabbed out trim boards that needs to be capped......Look the OP and see all the trim that can be damaged. Now look at yours and that pediment is not draining into anything because it runs off the cap on the crown.

Are you just picking because it's not that hard to see the difference

Originally Posted by Vern Heiler

This is the trim that makes me question "flashing required". Do you report these as needing flashing, and how do you flash this?

Vern,
I thought that's was where you were going with this.

Unless these pediments are installed over brick veneer, with the door setting back with the frame wall, there are always water intrusion issues.

Originally Posted by chris mcintyre

Vern,
I thought that's was where you were going with this.

Unless these pediments are installed over brick veneer, with the door setting back with the frame wall, there are always water intrusion issues.

Never said I liked them!

Vern,

You are missing a very important small fact of this discussion, which was pointed out to me by your photo.

You are missing the fact that wood trim which PROJECTS OUT needs to be flashed, what you showed sets out in front of the siding, with the siding continuous behind it.

As others pointed out above - the problem area now become where the APPLIED trim meets the PROJECTING trim, and it is that point which is required to be flashed properly.

...beating a dead horse there, jp, he doesn't, and probably won't ever get it.

Originally Posted by John Carroll

...beating a dead horse there, jp, he doesn't, and probably won't ever get it.

Jerry has waisted his time before. You, on the other hand, are kicking this horse 4 days after it died!

Originally Posted by Vern Heiler

Jerry has waisted his time before.

I'll have you know that my waist size is smaller than it used to be, now back down to 34 waist pants.