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  1. #1
    Ben Liu's Avatar
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    Default can a landing for an exterior ramp be inside a building?

    A restaurant in West Hollywood, CA wishes to expand by pushing out the front wall a few feet (see attached drawing). Since the restaurant floor is 2-1/2" higher than the sidewalk, a ramp is required. Section 1010 of the 2007 CBC states that a landing is required at both the top and bottom of the ramp. Because of space limitations, it's not possible to place the upper landing outside the restaurant. The owner would like to have the upper landing be inside the restaurant, i.e., behind the entry door. Is this permissible?
    [Note: the restaurant is exempt under section 1134B.2.1 of the CBC from making the ramp accessible to the disabled].

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  2. #2
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    Default Re: can a landing for an exterior ramp be inside a building?

    Why not just build the entry as an interior alcove?

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    Default Re: can a landing for an exterior ramp be inside a building?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Liu View Post
    A restaurant in West Hollywood, CA wishes to expand by pushing out the front wall a few feet (see attached drawing). Since the restaurant floor is 2-1/2" higher than the sidewalk, a ramp is required. Section 1010 of the 2007 CBC states that a landing is required at both the top and bottom of the ramp. Because of space limitations, it's not possible to place the upper landing outside the restaurant. The owner would like to have the upper landing be inside the restaurant, i.e., behind the entry door. Is this permissible?
    [Note: the restaurant is exempt under section 1134B.2.1 of the CBC from making the ramp accessible to the disabled].
    Not sure, but I would guess no.

    It will be difficult for someone in a wheelchair to keep themselves stationary on a slope and open the door simultaneously. I realize that I am using logic and this is not necessarily applicable when referring to codes.

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  4. #4
    chris mcintyre's Avatar
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    Default Re: can a landing for an exterior ramp be inside a building?

    Quote Originally Posted by Darren Miller View Post
    Why not just build the entry as an interior alcove?
    Darren,
    I'm assuming you meant to say "exterior alcove", because to be an interior alcove, you would need an entry door, which would..........

    Ben,
    I do not claim to be a code expert, but if you could consider the interior floor of the building "the landing", then I would not see the reason for having any mention of landings in the code.


  5. #5
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    Default Re: can a landing for an exterior ramp be inside a building?

    No.

    Needs to have a landing on both sides of the door, and the landing needs to be level (2% maximum slope = 1/4" per foot slope).

    Also, being as that is a public access it would need to meet ADA requirements for landings and wheelchair access and turnaround space.

    Plus there is the issue of whether or not they would be allowed to even encroach out to the sidewalk, but that would be a local zoning issue.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  6. #6
    Ben Liu's Avatar
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    Default Re: can a landing for an exterior ramp be inside a building?

    Thanks, guys, for your input. The consensus seems to be "no"- the landing must be outside the building- which is what I thought initially. However, a Building Department plan checker told me verbally today that he would accept the landing being inside the building. I'll find out for sure next week, when the permit is supposed to be issued.

    To answer one of the replies posted-part of the sidewalk lies on the restaurant's property, which is why they're allowing the ramp to be there.


  7. #7
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    Default Re: can a landing for an exterior ramp be inside a building?

    You could easily make the landing "outside" by bumping the exterior wall in and around the landing at the top of the ramp.

    However, you also need a landing at the top and bottom of each ramp, so you would need to have sufficient space at the bottom of the ramp for a landing, and, as the ramp crosses part of the sidewalk the ramp would require sloped sides so the sides where not greater than the allowed slope for the sides.

    When you are working in a public access area such as you are, you need to make sure to meet the requirements of the ADA, which includes ramps - the building code also addresses ramps, but not in as great detail as the ADA does.

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  8. #8
    Ben Liu's Avatar
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    Default Re: can a landing for an exterior ramp be inside a building?

    Jerry,

    The reason we can't bump the exterior wall inside is that would defeat the whole purpose of the addition, which was to increase the interior space of the restaurant. As for the ADA, as I mentioned in my original post, the City has exempted the project from meeting the ADA standards, presumably because of financial hardship (i.e., the cost of making the landing ADA-compliant exceeds 20% of the total construction cost).


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    Default Re: can a landing for an exterior ramp be inside a building?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Liu View Post
    The reason we can't bump the exterior wall inside is that would defeat the whole purpose of the addition, which was to increase the interior space of the restaurant.
    I don't understand that part ... the space for the landing inside would be 'lost space' anyway?

    As for the ADA, as I mentioned in my original post, the City has exempted the project from meeting the ADA standards, presumably because of financial hardship (i.e., the cost of making the landing ADA-compliant exceeds 20% of the total construction cost).
    I am also having a hard time envisioning that the cost of the addition would be so little that the ramp in question would exceed 20% of the total construction cost?

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  10. #10
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    Default Re: can a landing for an exterior ramp be inside a building?

    I agree that there needs to be a landing on the exterior of the door. Someone going up the ramps could not stop on the ramp and open the door. A possible option would be to install an automatic door opener, but that might require a variance/waiver, depending on your local regulations. I'm surprised that the AHJ is saying it's okay as is.


  11. #11
    Philippe Heller's Avatar
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    Default Re: can a landing for an exterior ramp be inside a building?

    I am a Certified Access Specialist in CA. Here's what is needed:

    First, they must put 20% of the budget towards ADA/CA Titile 24 upgrades. They cannot claim a financial hardship, then spend a bunch of money on moving an exterior wall. They can claim a hardship from being FORCED to move a load bearing wall to comply. But if they are electively doing improvements, they MUST spend the 20% on access. I don't believe that they got an exemption from this from the City of L.A. They are tough.

    A door must have level landings on both sides. The landings must be at least 60 inches wide, and depending on which way the door swings (in or out - I'm assuming the new door will swing out) the landing outside may need to be more than 60 inches deep in the direction of the swing. 48 inches deep on the side of the door opposite the door swing.

    There also must be 24 inches of clear space at the strike side of the door (18 inches at the interior). This is to allow a wheelchair user to get close enough to the handle.

    If anyone is interested in access issues, we are about to launch a free Access-Issues forum at CASp Discussion Board.

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  12. #12
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    Default Re: can a landing for an exterior ramp be inside a building?

    Ben,

    I agree with all the replys stating need to comply with ADA requirements and that the 20% rule probably does not apply here and that the AHJ cannot override ADA requirements. If permitable improvements are made such as this ADA requirements kick in. Exceptions may have been present prior to proposed improvements, but.... And landing on interior??? Sorry, that's just silly.

    Why not redesign ramp so that it parallels with the sidewalk and front of building. This would allow a 36" deep landing with width at doors being adequate (which may still not comply without exceptions because of limited depth) , doors that you show as swinging inward.

    Again, if there is a financial hardship present, they would probably be better off putting there monies into advertising instead of a few Sq. Ft. of additional customer waiting area. Then doing improvements, such as this, after they are able to afford.

    Not sure why you are looking at this for them, with no apparent ADA experience, unless they are friends or you have a relationship with them. Can you tell us what you were called in for, and why.


  13. #13
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    Default Re: can a landing for an exterior ramp be inside a building?

    Wow! I never expected to get this many responses to my post. At this point, I feel compelled to provide some background:

    1) I am a designer by profession- primarily residential, but with some commercial experience; in other words, I am aware of ADA requirements.

    2) I found this forum when I googled "landings at ramps") and joined because I was impressed by the insight and knowledge shown in the posts I read.

    3) When I was originally brought on, I told the restaurant owner that a ramp and landing would be required. Furthermore, I told him that in order to comply with sections 1010 (egress) and 1133B.5 (accessibility) of the CBC, both the ramp and landing would have to be inside (see attached pdf file). When the owner presented this plan to the Building Department, he was told that the ramp and landing were exempt from the ADA requirements because of the 20% hardship rule- yes, Mitch & Philippe, I too was surprised by this, so don't ask me why they approved it.

    4) Since the ramp and landing no longer needed to be inside the building, I came up with a plan to place the ramp and landing outside, but running parallel to the front of the building (as Mitch suggests), which would comply with section 1010 while remaining inside the restaurant's property. It was at this point I was told that an exterior upper landing was not necessary, i.e., the interior of the restaurant just beyond the entry door could serve as the landing. Again, I was surprised at this ruling, which is what led to my original post.

    Naturally, the restaurant owner is happy that he doesn't have to put in a landing and is furious with me because he feels I was ignorant of the building code and made things more complicated than necessary.

    Sorry for such a lengthy reply, but I hope this sheds some additional light on the issue.

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    Default Re: can a landing for an exterior ramp be inside a building?

    Ben,

    I read back through the posts again and either this is not there or I missed it: What is the height difference between the sidewalk and whatever is beyond the 3 foot wide sidewalk which runs along the front of the restaurant, or, does the sidewalk extend out a good distance more beyond the 3 feet shown?

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  15. #15
    Ben Liu's Avatar
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    Default Re: can a landing for an exterior ramp be inside a building?

    Jerry,
    There is no height difference between the sidewalk adjacent to the restaurant and the sidewalk 3 ft. from the restaurant. However, the 3 ft. line represents the front property line and the City will not allow any part of the ramp to extend into public property.


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    Default Re: can a landing for an exterior ramp be inside a building?

    You will be in violation of the ADA. Landings are required at doors, the pull side f the door needs 18" minimum clearance. Landings, at doors minimum 5' in the direction of travel. With all the litigation for access, I would follow the ADA guidelines and not refer to the city. The owner will end up in court.

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  17. #17
    David Bell's Avatar
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    Default Re: can a landing for an exterior ramp be inside a building?

    To build a non compliant ramp is just crazy. If the city will not allow you to encroach the sidewalk then you have to design a ramp that is totally within the envelope of the building. The improvements have to be compliant.


  18. #18
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    Default Re: can a landing for an exterior ramp be inside a building?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stephen Meyer View Post
    the pull side f the door needs 18" minimum clearance.

    24" minimum pull side for exterior doors.

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    Default Re: can a landing for an exterior ramp be inside a building?

    [IMG]file:///C:/Users/Steve/AppData/Local/Temp/moz-screenshot.jpg[/IMG]Current version of the ADAAG-ABA is 18". 24" prefered. 404.2.4.1 Swinging Doors and Gates. Swinging doors and gates shall have maneuvering
    clearances complying with Table 404.2.4.1.. California may have increased this.

    "How do you paste a PDF image into the body of this email.

    Where do you get the exterior door rule?




    [IMG]file:///C:/Users/Steve/AppData/Local/Temp/moz-screenshot-3.jpg[/IMG]


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    Default Re: can a landing for an exterior ramp be inside a building?

    Phillipe,

    Thanks for the link. I was able to view the door details. In Texas we follow the minimum of 18" at all doors, 24" preferred.

    Steve Meyer
    Registered Accessibility Specialist, TX.


  21. #21
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    Default Re: can a landing for an exterior ramp be inside a building?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stephen Meyer View Post
    Where do you get the exterior door rule?
    From the drawing attached to this post - they are both in CA.

    Quote Originally Posted by Philippe Heller View Post
    I am a Certified Access Specialist in CA. Here's what is needed:There also must be 24 inches of clear space at the strike side of the door (18 inches at the interior). This is to allow a wheelchair user to get close enough to the handle.


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  22. #22
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    Default Re: can a landing for an exterior ramp be inside a building?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    From the drawing attached to this post - they are both in CA.
    Quote Originally Posted by Philippe Heller View Post
    I am a Certified Access Specialist in CA. Here's what is needed:

    First, they must put 20% of the budget towards ADA/CA Titile 24 upgrades. They cannot claim a financial hardship, then spend a bunch of money on moving an exterior wall. They can claim a hardship from being FORCED to move a load bearing wall to comply. But if they are electively doing improvements, they MUST spend the 20% on access. I don't believe that they got an exemption from this from the City of L.A. They are tough.

    A door must have level landings on both sides. The landings must be at least 60 inches wide, and depending on which way the door swings (in or out - I'm assuming the new door will swing out) the landing outside may need to be more than 60 inches deep in the direction of the swing. 48 inches deep on the side of the door opposite the door swing.

    There also must be 24 inches of clear space at the strike side of the door (18 inches at the interior). This is to allow a wheelchair user to get close enough to the handle.

    If anyone is interested in access issues, we are about to launch a free Access-Issues forum at CASp Discussion Board.
    philippe,
    you should also include figure 11B-39 which requires the landing to be 42" plus the width of the door in the direction of travel if the door swings out! being casp certified you knew that?


  23. #23
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    Default Re: can a landing for an exterior ramp be inside a building?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stephen Meyer View Post
    [IMG]file:///C:/Users/Steve/AppData/Local/Temp/moz-screenshot.jpg[/IMG]Current version of the ADAAG-ABA is 18". 24" prefered. 404.2.4.1 Swinging Doors and Gates. Swinging doors and gates shall have maneuvering
    clearances complying with Table 404.2.4.1.. California may have increased this.

    "How do you paste a PDF image into the body of this email.

    Where do you get the exterior door rule?




    [IMG]file:///C:/Users/Steve/AppData/Local/Temp/moz-screenshot-3.jpg[/IMG]
    Stephen Meyer:

    You can only "insert" an image with a link to it hosted elsewhere on the WWW, not your local harddrive or your intRAnet. (that's the post-card looking icon on the second row top of the reply/post composition box).

    You can UPLOAD and ATTACH at the end of your post an image or pdf file (if the size is within limitations) by using the "Attach photos" features, which are down below the composition box, below the Post Icons Box, and below the Trackback box, BELOW the "Submit Reply" and "Preview Post" boxes, under "Additional Options" second area down.

    You'll need to use your screen scroll on the right (not the scroll for the composition box) to see it.

    Do that, and a pop up will appear which will allow you to find the file on your local harddrive (or elsewhere on the www if you want to upload it from elsewhere), identify it, use the UPLOAD button on that pop up box, when it has completed the process, and/or uploaded other docs or photos you wish to, then close that pop-up box, and either preview your post or go ahead and submit your post using the "submit Reply" button just below the composition box and above the "Additional Options" heading.



    You can go back to your previous post, use the edit feature, and still do it now.


  24. #24
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    Default Re: can a landing for an exterior ramp be inside a building?

    thanks Jerry


  25. #25
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    Default Re: can a landing for an exterior ramp be inside a building?

    In Florida it is 18 inches (with 24 inches preferred) ... unless the door has a closer, in which case the side clearance on the latch side is 24 inches minimum. Which is the same as the ADA - if the door has a closer, the minimum side clearance is 24 inches (unless the door is an automatic opening door or has an automatic opening device one can activate).

    In the above posts I suspect that most of us presumed the door did not have a closer, but MOST (if not all) "exterior" doors do have a closer, which may be why California as that 24 inch requirement at exterior doors. Just a guess.

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