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  1. #1
    John Swygert's Avatar
    John Swygert Guest

    Default Firewall Clarification Please

    Guys, I keep running into a couple issues that I need clarification on. Homes with attached garages that have scuttle holes or attic pull downs made of plywood. Generally theses range from mid 90s to new construction. Second situation is no attic access however a garage located furnace with flex duct work (not rigid metal) penetrating the ceiling or wall. Where do you draw the line? How do yall handle this? Thanks in advance.

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  2. #2
    A.D. Miller's Avatar
    A.D. Miller Guest

    Default Re: Firewall Clarification Please

    Quote Originally Posted by John Swygert View Post
    Guys, I keep running into a couple issues that I need clarification on. Homes with attached garages that have scuttle holes or attic pull downs made of plywood. Generally theses range from mid 90s to new construction. Second situation is no attic access however a garage located furnace with flex duct work (not rigid metal) penetrating the ceiling or wall. Where do you draw the line? How do yall handle this? Thanks in advance.
    JS: Pull-down attic stair (ladder) units must either be of the fire-rated variety or in some other way modified in order to meet the IRC-required fire separation.

    Ducts penetrating the common wall of an attahced garage must be rigid metal, not flex duct.


  3. #3
    John Swygert's Avatar
    John Swygert Guest

    Default Re: Firewall Clarification Please

    Many Thanks for the quick response. I'm aware of the regs for new construction. What about homes built in 1980's-late 90's?


  4. #4
    A.D. Miller's Avatar
    A.D. Miller Guest

    Default Re: Firewall Clarification Please

    Quote Originally Posted by John Swygert View Post
    Many Thanks for the quick response. I'm aware of the regs for new construction. What about homes built in 1980's-late 90's?
    JS: For that answer I would need the versions of the model codes adopted on the dates in question.


  5. #5
    Join Date
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    Default Re: Firewall Clarification Please

    It is still a safety concern regardless of went it was installed. Note in your report that it is unsafe and why. Don't worry about what the regs were when it was installed. You are inspecting for safety and habitability, not code enforcement.

    "The Code is not a peak to reach but a foundation to build from."

  6. #6
    A.D. Miller's Avatar
    A.D. Miller Guest

    Default Re: Firewall Clarification Please

    You are inspecting for safety and habitability, not code enforcement.
    BR: While this may be true, it is the path of the minimalist. Citing the applicable codes often aids the home buyers in making their case with the seller, building official or builder, and serves to educate all of the parties involved - including the inspector.


  7. #7

    Default Re: Firewall Clarification Please

    In Ky it used to be against the law to quote code in the initial inspection report. It has since been changed, "initial" has been removed & you can't quote the codes on follow ups either.

    Clarksville Home Inspection
    JW Goad
    TN License #307 | KY License #2402

  8. #8
    A.D. Miller's Avatar
    A.D. Miller Guest

    Default Re: Firewall Clarification Please

    Quote Originally Posted by John Goad View Post
    In Ky it used to be against the law to quote code in the initial inspection report. It has since been changed, "initial" has been removed & you can't quote the codes on follow ups either.
    JG: Leave it to Kentucky to come up with stupider rules than even Texas.


  9. #9
    Ted Menelly's Avatar
    Ted Menelly Guest

    Default Re: Firewall Clarification Please

    Quote Originally Posted by A.D. Miller View Post
    BR: While this may be true, it is the path of the minimalist. Citing the applicable codes often aids the home buyers in making their case with the seller, building official or builder, and serves to educate all of the parties involved - including the inspector.
    And this does what??????

    Citing the code for what is now when it was most likely OK then does nothing for the buyer. If in fact it is code now as the home being built now then that would make some difference but if the home was built now you simply state how it should be or what is wrong. there is no reason to list what code it falls under. It is the builders and framers and architects and engineers responsibility to look it up and do it right.

    Do you ever see a municipal building inspector come in and note which code was violated? No, he just passes or fails the installation. There may be something brief as to why but he does not whip out his code book on cite and make note of it.

    Stating or not stating code neither makes one a minimalist or an extremist. We are not code enforcement inspectors. We simply note what the concern is with an item we found. We have no authority.

    If you are going to quote codes in your report it better be for every single item you write up and you better not have a hiccup and quote it wrong or forget to quote a code on a single item.

    If one is going to quote codes it is advisable to keep that in new construction not existing homes.

    Did I ever mention how much I hate constantly hearing or reading about the minimalist inspector because he does not cite codes when we are clearly not code enforcement inspectors (again, we have no authority). Codes are a wonderful thing, for code inspectors in new construction or if someone gets additions or new work done in a home. Other than that one has to worry about whether it is city or county and what county and who inspects for or adopted what code. There is a reason that we are not code inspectors. One reason is to give a reduced risk for the home buyer. A reduced risk because we cannot spend an entire day in a 1500 square foot home and another half day on research and a report and then actually expect for everyone to want and afford a home inspection.

    In the oh so perfect world of the extremists that may work and cut the amount of folks that get home inspections in half and move the world back 10 years or more. Once upon a time....well...you know the once upon a time story.

    In the real world it just does not work. There are serious amount of folks out there that want to go the extremist route but that would be like raising health insurance cost to 800 a month for a family plan. The extremists would still get the insurance or should I say the ones that could afford it. The rest that could not afford it would be sitting in the emergency room half dead trying to get some help. Such as in home inspection. Those that could afford it would still get one the rest would bring dad and uncle Jimmy over to check their new home out and cut the inspector out all together.


  10. #10
    A.D. Miller's Avatar
    A.D. Miller Guest

    Default Re: Firewall Clarification Please

    And this does what??????
    TM: Here you go with your perennial code-phobic rant . . . .

    It is the builders and framers and architects and engineers responsibility to look it up and do it right.
    TM: We are often the homeowner's last line of defense. It is our responsibility to report whether or not something was done correctly. If you do not know the code, how could you assess its correctness?

    Do you ever see a municipal building inspector come in and note which code was violated?
    TM: Yes.

    We are not code enforcement inspectors. We simply note what the concern is with an item we found. We have no authority.
    TM: Just because you are not vested with official authority to enforce the code, does not obviate your responsibility to both know and teach your clients about the minimal construction rules as regards their homes.

    If you are going to quote codes in your report it better be for every single item you write up and you better not have a hiccup and quote it wrong or forget to quote a code on a single item.
    TM: No, it is my report. I will make the decision as to what needs be included.

    If one is going to quote codes it is advisable to keep that in new construction not existing homes.
    TM: If you really believe and practice that, then none of your reports can possibly be TREC SOP-compliant.

    Did I ever mention how much I hate constantly hearing or reading about the minimalist inspector because he does not cite codes
    TM: That is just the defensive tactic you are employing in order to justify maintaining a mental status quo.

    A reduced risk because we cannot spend an entire day in a 1500 square foot home and another half day on research and a report and then actually expect for everyone to want and afford a home inspection.
    TM: Nothing needs to change except the ways in which you are certified and how you write your reports. Instead of just saying that this or that is "deficient", it might be nice if you said why it was deficient and then substantiate your opinion with information from an authority - the building code.

    The profession has been moving in this direction for at least the past ten years. There is no requirement for you to be progressive. You can stay right where you are and lose all of your business to those in the know.


  11. #11
    Charles Guinn's Avatar
    Charles Guinn Guest

    Default Re: Firewall Clarification Please

    Stupider????


  12. #12
    A.D. Miller's Avatar
    A.D. Miller Guest

    Default Re: Firewall Clarification Please

    Quote Originally Posted by Charles Guinn View Post
    Stupider????
    CG: Yes, it is the comparative form of stupid: meaing more stupid, like someone who asks to ask . . . stupider - Wiktionary


  13. #13
    Ted Menelly's Avatar
    Ted Menelly Guest

    Default Re: Firewall Clarification Please

    Quote Originally Posted by A.D. Miller View Post
    TM: Here you go with your perennial code-phobic rant . . . .


    TM: We are often the homeowner's last line of defense. It is our responsibility to report whether or not something was done correctly. If you do not know the code, how could you assess its correctness?



    TM: Yes.



    TM: Just because you are not vested with official authority to enforce the code, does not obviate your responsibility to both know and teach your clients about the minimal construction rules as regards their homes.



    TM: No, it is my report. I will make the decision as to what needs be included.



    TM: If you really believe and practice that, then none of your reports can possibly be TREC SOP-compliant.



    TM: That is just the defensive tactic you are employing in order to justify maintaining a mental status quo.



    TM: Nothing needs to change except the ways in which you are certified and how you write your reports. Instead of just saying that this or that is "deficient", it might be nice if you said why it was deficient and then substantiate your opinion with information from an authority - the building code.

    The profession has been moving in this direction for at least the past ten years. There is no requirement for you to be progressive. You can stay right where you are and lose all of your business to those in the know.
    It will never become this way. Progressive....As in your (I know you will deny this) Progressive Liberal political stance.

    Yes Aaron. We inspect based on code. The vast majority we are inspecting on has nothing to do with code.

    For some reason you want to make sure the happy home owner has a button attached that leads directly to 911 because they have no ability to watch out for themselves.

    Yes the water heater install is correct or not...name it.

    The HVAC install is correct or not...name it. The roof shingles, from what you can see of the installation is correct or not.

    I do not know why you insist on upping the inspection process to no ever ending means. It does have to stop somewhere. Who was it that was saying that the TREC SOPs where added to so we could spend more time at the inspection and make more money. I wish you could see me now. I am laughing so hard with tears coming from my eyes over that one. Imagine, spend more time at the home so we can make more money when eveyone on the planet things of nothing but how to get the cost lowered.

    Like I say, well you won't have to worry about it being an older fart, spending more time in the home and driving the cost up will only do one thing....lower the percentage of homes getting an inspection back into the 50 percentile range as it was years ago. You must try not to forget that the vast majority of home buyers are scaping the pennies up to pull the down payment and all the fees together as it is. Raising the time involved in a home inspection as well as the pricing might be good for a small portion of folks buying a home but not for the vast majority.

    Then you have the dilemma of so many home inspectors out there and constantly rising. Now do you really think spending a vast amount of additional time in a home doing the inspection...for what reason you want that I am not sure, and more time on a report.

    I have read your reports and hundreds of others. Besides being filled with a very serious amount of absolute crap that has no real benefit to the client other than giving them eye strain and a head ache I do not see your report being practically any different than any other reports out there. Yes some are better than others. But, more is not always better by any means.

    You could remove 60 pages from your 80 page report and then folks would say....Oh yeah...now I see what the concerns are.

    That is what they are paying you for. Your extra certs and tens upon tens upon tens of pages in your reports..........for what reason............sorry, just don't get it. Some people do feel that "Oh my goodness. Look how big this report is compared to Teds 15 to 25 page reports. With so much insane garbage in there Aaron's must just be better. But wait a minute.......they both say the same thing as far as concerns in the home.

    Me nor anyone else is trying to take away anything from you Aaron. You just do not understand at all. We are all giving you and anyone else the atta boy for your certs and admire you greatly for getting them. Most of us are just tired of hearing how wonderful you are and how the rest of us suck.

    Get a grip. You are great and wonderful and all knowledgeable and smarter than the rest of us and you have all your certs and want a longer inspection on all home inspections and want everyone to punch out 80 page reports.....That's all well and good. We give you all that. Trust me Aaron it does not make you better. You go way over board unnecessarily and that is your choice. Most of us average 15 to 25 pages depending on the home being inspected. Some say theirs are longer but then take out the summary which is just another copy of the report (as in Rowes report I viewed the other day and I am not getting into whether I like it or not) and then the disclaimers and maintenance tips and most of theirs are not ten pages.

    All I can tell you Aaron is I respect your decision and am just saying to respect others on their decisions. Just because you do things a certain way it does not mean that it is the only right way or better way to do it. It is just your way.

    And yes. It is a decision on my behalf. My nose is in the code book often enough and I think that is as far as it has to go. I do not think it should be should the rest of the way as in down our throats until we choke on it.

    Just like in all trades. We are licensed, time in, trained, read, fallen down and gotten back up home inspectors that are out to reduce the risk in the home buying process for our clients. God man, I drove from where I live to Garland this morning to re-inspect a roof for a client. The same roof I wrote up and the roofer bitched about the multiple items I wrote up. Then the Realtor bitched to me. I got him out there by writing up multiple concerns and they, the client, got a new roof out of it that the Roofer totally screwed up with the new install.

    I wrote it up again and my opinion as to what is wrong with the install. It will need to be fixed and recommended that an independent roofer evaluate for cost of repairs to the new roof that the other roofer that bitched about me put on the home.

    Now that is what I am inspecting homes for. The benefit of my client. I did my job and did it very well, no ands ifs or buts about it. That is what I have done all my life. Imagine that. Looking out for my clients all these years and never taking the ICC tests. I just do not know how I have done it all these years. Oh wait, I know. Because I have been doing this for 35 free kin years.

    So pleaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaase get off everyone else is a waste bag crap. You only make yourself look bad. After all the rest of what you do is trying to make yourself look good. Have a Margarita or bottle of wine, sit back, take a breath and say to yourself three times....I must get over myself., I must get over myself, I must get over myself and then add to it...I will be a better person if I stop jumping everyone's S***

    Sorry, I forgot. Have a wonderful afternoon. I am sorry I did not get permission to come into your neck of the woods this morning.

    Last edited by Ted Menelly; 02-26-2010 at 11:52 AM.

  14. #14
    Ted Menelly's Avatar
    Ted Menelly Guest

    Default Re: Firewall Clarification Please

    Quote Originally Posted by A.D. Miller View Post
    TM:
    I rest my case. Just stating facts.


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