Thread: Control/expansion joint brick veneer over frame

Developer called me crazy for recommending a control joint on a two story SFR with multiple fenestrations, single wythe veneer wall approx 55' wide and 22' high. I merely posted this in front of him: Masonry Magazine: Control Joints

So the Developer did not install and the property closed. Who's right? BIA states the same thing here: http://www.gobrick.com/BIA/technotes/t18a.pdf?CFID=10894316&CFTOKEN=28364765

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Originally Posted by Ross Neag

Developer called me crazy for recommending a control joint on a two story SFR with multiple fenestrations, single wythe veneer wall approx 55' wide and 22' high. I merely posted this in front of him: Masonry Magazine: Control Joints

So the Developer did not install and the property closed. Who's right? BIA states the same thing here: http://www.gobrick.com/BIA/technotes/t18a.pdf?CFID=10894316&CFTOKEN=28364765

Fenestrations? Sheesh.

Originally Posted by Ross Neag

...http://www.gobrick.com/BIA/technotes/t18a.pdf?CFID=10894316&CFTOKEN=28364765

Try this if the above doesn't work:
www.gobrick.com/BIA/technotes/t18a.pdf?CFID=10894316&CFTOKEN=28364765

Originally Posted by Ross Neag

Developer called me crazy for recommending a control joint on a two story SFR with multiple fenestrations, single wythe veneer wall approx 55' wide and 22' high. I merely posted this in front of him: Masonry Magazine: Control Joints

So the Developer did not install and the property closed. Who's right? BIA states the same thing here: http://www.gobrick.com/BIA/technotes/t18a.pdf?CFID=10894316&CFTOKEN=28364765

Is the wall a CMU veneer or a brick veneer wall? The magazine article is concerned with 'control' joints. Control joints are typically associated with concrete masonry. When talking about brick veneer, the primary joint used is an ''expansion' joint. The terms are not interchangeable.

If I built a brick veneer wall and you gave me an article on CMU control joints, I might think you were crazy, too (I kid).

As far as who is right, I would have to know the masons argument and see some pictures before I could hazard a guess.

Vertical Expansion Joints. A vertical expansion joint consists
of an opening through the brick wythe closed with a
backer rod and sealant. A compressible pad may be used
in the joint to ensure no mortar is placed in the expansion
joint. Such pads can be made of premolded foam or neoprene
as shown in Figure 11. Vertical expansion joints should
extend from the foundation to the top of the brickwork without
deviating from vertical. When this is not possible, they can
be terminated at horizontal expansion joints. Generally, the
spacing of vertical expansion joints should not exceed 30 ft
(9.14 m) in walls without openings. Vertical expansion joints
are also recommended where site walls adjoin buildings and
at the corners of large openings. Building corners should
have a vertical expansion joint located within 10 ft (3.05 m) of
the corner. When a vertical expansion joint is located within
10 ft (3.05 m) of the corner, the vertical expansion joint on the other wall forming that corner should be placed at
the typical spacing between expansion joints. For example, if the spacing between vertical expansion joints on a
straight wall is 25 ft (7.62 m), then the spacing of expansion joints around a corner could be 10 ft (3.05 m) on one
side of the corner and 15 ft (4.57 m) on the other side. Plan offsets and setbacks of a wall should also include a

Originally Posted by John Arnold

Try this if the above doesn't work:
www.gobrick.com/BIA/technotes/t18a.pdf?CFID=10894316&CFTOKEN=28364765

Go here: Technical Notes

Click on the link on the left to Technical Notes 18A.

This may (should) take you directly there: http://www.gobrick.com/BIA/technotes/t18a.pdf

Originally Posted by Ross Neag

Developer called me crazy for recommending a control joint on a two story SFR with multiple fenestrations, single wythe veneer wall approx 55' wide and 22' high. I merely posted this in front of him: Masonry Magazine: Control Joints

So the Developer did not install and the property closed. Who's right? BIA states the same thing here: http://www.gobrick.com/BIA/technotes...TOKEN=28364765

I never see expansion joints used in SFR, unless it is a long wall with no fenestrations (and yes, I had to look it up ) and there are very few problems even on older homes.

Who's right? Both of you are. You were right for recommending expansion joints, and the builder was right since they are not required.
From the BIA document:

SUMMARY OF RECOMMENDATIONS:

While most examples are for commercial structures, movement joints, although rare,

also must be considered for residential structures.

Anybody here could go into a new home and write a 100 pages of item that would be better building practices for every system. It is the builder who is liable for their product, so if it is not required by code then it is the builders discretion.

MH,

This is brick veneer over frame. Rereading BIA Tech 18a it should have an expansion joint. It clearly says this in the first bullet point under Summary of Recommendations.

And then, of course, the last line of the Introduction states that movement is rare in SFR. If it gets installed, great. If it doesn't, so be it.

Again without reading the specs, so don't hold me accountable for what i say

There are commonly known rules for brick veneer control joints. A quick search on google returned this National Concrete Masonry Association (NCMA) Tek Note 10-A, Jerry had another tek note. These vertical control joints will provide movement tolerance between the veneer panels, but we all know that. Usually here in MD I see 30', sometimes a little more.

An expansion joint is a totally different beast in my experience. It runs though the whole wall assembly, floors and roof. It is mostly used when foundation movement is anticipated. You normally have expansion joints on bridges and long buildings/ structures. If you see the words "expansion joint" in any drawings contact the architect or structural engineer if the expansion joint didn't make it all the way through the building's walls.

Originally Posted by Joao Vieira

Again without reading the specs, so don't hold me accountable for what i say

Why would you not read what has been posted?

Originally Posted by Joao Vieira

There are commonly known rules for brick veneer control joints.

Again,
Brick veneer= expansion joint
Concrete= control joint
As previously mentioned (see post #4)

Originally Posted by Joao Vieira

An expansion joint is a totally different beast in my experience. It runs though the whole wall assembly, floors and roof.

From: http://www.gobrick.com/BIA/technotes/t18a.pdf

An

expansion joint separates brick masonry into segments to prevent cracking caused by changes in

temperature, moisture expansion, elastic deformation, settlement and creep. Expansion joints may be horizontal
or vertical. The joints are formed by leaving a continuous unobstructed opening through the brick wythe that may
be filled with a highly compressible material. This allows the joints to partially close as the brickwork expands.
Expansion joints must be located so that the structural integrity of the brickwork is not compromised.
A

control joint determines the location of cracks in concrete or concrete masonry construction due to volume

changes resulting from shrinkage. It creates a plane of weakness that, in conjunction with reinforcement or joint
reinforcement, causes cracks to occur at a predetermined location. A control joint is usually a vertical gap through
the concrete or concrete masonry wythe and may be filled with inelastic materials. A control joint will tend to
open rather than close. Control joints must be located so that the structural integrity of the concrete or concrete

masonry is not affected.

Just because is written somewhere does not mean is right I have seen almost all (I believe) types of joint terminology. A building expansion joint will have connections that allow movement of the whole structure, not only the veneer and brick walls.

In addition to photos, I suggest you to get a drawing detail from the field condition you describe if you want to document properly and request comments/feedback from AR (Architect of Record). I would copy the owner and developer too.

If AR thinks that a control joint is not required and sends you an email or letter stating so, the liability is on him and you really can't do much about it. If AR does not respond, you can wait for in front of their office and have that match.

Originally Posted by Joao Vieira

There are commonly known rules for brick veneer control joints. A quick search on google returned this National Concrete Masonry Association (NCMA) Tek Note 10-A, Jerry had another tek note. These vertical control joints will provide movement tolerance between the veneer panels, but we all know that. Usually here in MD I see 30', sometimes a little more.

An expansion joint is a totally different beast in my experience. It runs though the whole wall assembly, floors and roof. It is mostly used when foundation movement is anticipated. You normally have expansion joints on bridges and long buildings/ structures. If you see the words "expansion joint" in any drawings contact the architect or structural engineer if the expansion joint didn't make it all the way through the building's walls.

I could not find Tek Note 10-A, would you please post a link for it. Everything I found on this site was related to CMU's not brick veneer.

Originally Posted by Joao Vieira

Just because is written somewhere does not mean is right

Well said.

here: http://www.prairie-stone.com/docs/tek_note_10-4.pdf

in there we can find

"
Control joint spacing should be
adjusted where local experience justifies.
"
meaning that you can't really go after the Architect of Record or Engineer of Record just because you think he/she is wrong. This does not mean that AR/ER do not make mistakes. We all make mistakes .

In my experience is better to call the culprit of your anger and ask his opinion about the condition (politely ) . .
Something like : I was looking at your drawings/building and noticed that there are no control joints. Can you Please explain your thoughts about this condition?

Is not of your interest to make people mad. It appears that the topic author has done that too. Getting upset sometimes is part of the whole thing.

BTW: It's funny but happened again to me today. Steel structure with 2" slotted holes at the joist. Static connection from the steel to CMU. CMU had no expansion joint.