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  1. #1
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    Default Doug Fir used for fencing

    Builder is defending this and I'm thinking I'm on pretty solid ground.

    Doug fir used as fence rails will just rot in about 2 years won't it?

    Here's the stamp and picture... any thoughts?

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  2. #2
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    Default Re: Doug Fir used for fencing

    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Fellman View Post
    Builder is defending this and I'm thinking I'm on pretty solid ground.

    Doug fir used as fence rails will just rot in about 2 years won't it?

    Here's the stamp and picture... any thoughts?
    Sounds like an AZ builders response, if it will last two years, they are free from any liabilty.

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  3. #3
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    Default Re: Doug Fir used for fencing

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Harris View Post
    Sounds like an AZ builders response, if it will last two years, they are free from any liabilty.
    It will probably take a bit longer than 2 years. I would guess maybe 7 or 8, but then again you Oregonians get more rain than we do down here.

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  4. #4
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    Default Re: Doug Fir used for fencing

    Arrogance + stupidity: a bad combination.

    AFAIK it's allowable to build a fence out of paper mache if you wish, but IMO this really is a case where the buyer ought to be wondering where else the builder cut corners.

    Last edited by Michael Thomas; 06-25-2010 at 06:31 AM.
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  5. #5
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    Default Re: Doug Fir used for fencing

    If "properly" primed and painted they last forever, Tell them to use an oil base or

    enamel. I wouldn't want to be the guy having to maintain it though.. it has to be dry and

    clean when painted also or it will just peel in the first year, also prone to paint cracking

    easily in areas with hot/cold climate due to expansion/contraction.. only seen a few.


  6. #6
    Kary Krismer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Doug Fir used for fencing

    I have about a 2' section of a fir 2x4 in the top of my deck that the prior owner put there probably over 3 years ago. It seems to be holding up well, but it doesn't have the rigidity of a cedar 2x4. It's near the edge so I haven't replaced it.

    Anyway, it will last longer than two years, but it's also clearly going to be a problem a lot earlier than it should be.


  7. #7
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    Default Re: Doug Fir used for fencing

    The IRC requires that any wooden materials used in exterior locations be either naturally decay resistant or pressure-treated. Douglas Fir is neither.

    Are you sure about that?

    ' correct a wise man and you gain a friend... correct a fool and he'll bloody your nose'.

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Doug Fir used for fencing

    I am now. Care to contest the fact?

    Well...
    have you considered:
    T-111 siding
    Pine board and batten
    Masonite
    Fiberboard sidings
    Wood trim, such as pine 1x?, 2x?
    Deck, porch, and other railings,
    Fascia board
    Soffit
    Door and window trim
    Oh, doors and windows,
    Posts and columns
    and Log homes.

    Does the IRC even cover fences?
    Does it also include:
    Arbors, swings, benches, planters, tables...?

    ' correct a wise man and you gain a friend... correct a fool and he'll bloody your nose'.

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Doug Fir used for fencing

    Aaron
    Now I see
    You edited your first post to add "that close to the ground".
    Note the time stamp is 2 minutes after my question.

    So sorry my friend, but that don't fly.
    Please be so kind as to show me the code(s) you are referring to.

    ' correct a wise man and you gain a friend... correct a fool and he'll bloody your nose'.

  10. #10
    Kary Krismer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Doug Fir used for fencing

    Quote Originally Posted by A.D. Miller View Post
    And, I even told you I did it.
    Post 9 here, in case he missed it.


  11. #11
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    Default Re: Doug Fir used for fencing

    And, I even told you I did it.
    In my haste, I did not catch it.


    Getting back to the topic
    I see nothing in the IRC that would prohibit a fence as shown in the OP.

    ' correct a wise man and you gain a friend... correct a fool and he'll bloody your nose'.

  12. #12
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    Default Re: Doug Fir used for fencing

    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Fellman View Post
    Builder is defending this and I'm thinking I'm on pretty solid ground.

    Doug fir used as fence rails will just rot in about 2 years won't it?

    Here's the stamp and picture... any thoughts?
    To be honest, that's how grampa would have built it but then he would paint it right away and repaint every 5 years. What Kenny M said.

    I've got pictures of old fir outside. It is grey and cracked, but not rotten. That second growth or third growth wood they sell you now is not as durable, but yeah, I would just call for paint or sealer.

    Nevertheless, you're right, Mr. Contractor should know better, when there's pressure-treated wood for sale cheap in every big box store in the country.

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  13. #13
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    Default Re: Doug Fir used for fencing

    Quote Originally Posted by John Kogel View Post
    Nevertheless, you're right, Mr. Contractor should know better, when there's pressure-treated wood for sale cheap in every big box store in the country.
    Even cedar 2x4s are not that expensive, although I'm not sure they're right for that application.


  14. #14
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    Default Re: Doug Fir used for fencing

    Sure is pretty though... for now...


  15. #15
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    Default Re: Doug Fir used for fencing

    Doug Fir is just fine for fence rails. It won't last as long as treated wood, but it will last many years if it's maintained with waterproof stain/sealer. I built a cedar fence last year and used Doug Fir for fence rails. However they would not hold up as well in wet areas like Portland, OR. If they are bare I would definitely recommend a stain or waterproof sealant be applied.


  16. #16

    Default Re: Doug Fir used for fencing

    I'm curious what the expected life of cedar vs. fir is when neither board is heartwood.

    PS: Matt, did you know that juniper heartwood has been accepted as a naturally decay resistant species in OR? I just thought the info. was interesting. http://www.cbs.state.or.us/bcd/progr...t_Dur_Wood.pdf


  17. #17
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    Default Re: Doug Fir used for fencing

    At best it is a poor choice made by a cheap-skate builder with maximum profit in mind.

    Poor choice = Yes
    Cheap = Maybe
    Max profit= No

    My experience has been, it's not so much that the contractor is "cheap", it's more often that the contractor does not have the experience, skills or knowledge to properly perform the job.
    The contractor really believes he is an expert and does quality work, he just does not know any better.


    I checked the local Lowe's for the price of lumber.

    1x6x6' SPF* 4.86 each (* Lowe's calls it Whitewood)
    5/8x5 1/2"x6' PT 1.24
    5/8x5 1/2x 6 Cedar 2.47

    To use 1x6x6 SPF is not only a poor choice for this use, it is also much more costly.
    Cedar would be about 1/2 the cost, and PT pine less that a 1/3.
    Of course these prices are for my area.
    Different areas of the country cedar may be cheaper to use.

    So the builder may not have been cheep so much as he is ignorant.

    ' correct a wise man and you gain a friend... correct a fool and he'll bloody your nose'.

  18. #18
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    Default Re: Doug Fir used for fencing

    stupid may be more appropriate


    I used ignorant because I said "...the contractor does not have the experience, skills or knowledge...".
    I think stupid would be when the contractor had been told, showed, or trained, and still chose do it wrong.

    ' correct a wise man and you gain a friend... correct a fool and he'll bloody your nose'.

  19. #19
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    Default Re: Doug Fir used for fencing

    Einstein was undoubtedly ignorant of many things. For example, I doubt he knew how to rebuild a car's transmission. But that ignorance does not make him stupid. Stupidity is the inability to understand.


  20. #20
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    Default Re: Doug Fir used for fencing

    Sorry A.D. wrong interpretation,
    Stupidity is a quality or state of being stupid, or an act or idea that exhibits properties of being stupid.[1] The root word stupid,[2] which can serve as an adjective or noun itself, comes from the Latin verb stupere, for being numb or astonished, and is related to stupor.[3]
    According to the online Merriam-Webster dictionary, the words "stupid" and "stupidity" entered the English language in 1541. Since then, stupidity has taken place along with "fool," "idiot," "dumb," "moron," and related concepts as a pejorative appellation for human misdeeds, whether purposeful or accidental, due to absence of mental capacity.
    The modern English word "stupid" has a broad range of application, from being slow of mind (indicating a lack of intelligence, care or reason), dullness of feeling or sensation (torpidity, senseless, insensitivity), or lacking interest or point (vexing, exasperating). It can either infer a congenital lack of capacity for reasoning, or a temporary state of daze or slow-mindedness.
    ...also contractors have absolutely no obligation to provide quality anything as codes are minimal standards allowed period!, and do not pertain this fence. This fence is no big deal, tell client what it is, what you can expect, what they can do to extend the life and they would crazy to not buy a home they like that came out good overall in the inspection, if in deed it did.. as for terminology ignorance is usually what I find to fit best, lacking proper knowledge of..


  21. #21
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    Default Re: Doug Fir used for fencing

    If I may, I understand Aaron to be saying that someone is stupid when they chose to be ignorant.

    ' correct a wise man and you gain a friend... correct a fool and he'll bloody your nose'.

  22. #22
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    Default Re: Doug Fir used for fencing

    I can always break out all of my unabridged dictionaries and get down to business

    Only if you start with:
    "extenuate" and "fallacious".

    ' correct a wise man and you gain a friend... correct a fool and he'll bloody your nose'.

  23. #23
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    Default Re: Doug Fir used for fencing

    A.D. I assume attention deficit?

    "After reading this statement it has become exceedingly clear to me why you spent the preceding paragraphs supporting the idea that you are an expert on the concept of stupidity".

    Actually I was just voicing reality, codes ARE minimal standards and 99% of ALL builders follow exactly that standard. When it comes to the fence though I still think it's a non issue to a home you like and want.. trust me I'm the super thorough type of inspector and usually pretty tough on homes but this one is too minimal an issue considering the easy remedies, once again considering the rest of the home checked out OK..


  24. #24
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    Default Re: Doug Fir used for fencing

    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Cantrell View Post
    stupid may be more appropriate


    I used ignorant because I said "...the contractor does not have the experience, skills or knowledge...".
    I think stupid would be when the contractor had been told, showed, or trained, and still chose do it wrong.

    I think "stupid" applies as it is "stupid" for a contractor to construct what he knows not ... that is "stupid".

    Now, "why" is that "stupid"? Because the contractor is "ignorant" of what he should be knowledgeable of.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  25. #25
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    Default Re: Doug Fir used for fencing

    Can't say I disagree, cuz I don't..


  26. #26
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    Default Re: Doug Fir used for fencing

    This thread has become 'stupid'.


  27. #27
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    Default Re: Doug Fir used for fencing

    Define 'stupid' ??


  28. #28
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    Default Re: Doug Fir used for fencing

    Quote Originally Posted by kenny martin View Post
    Define 'stupid' ??
    "Stupid is as Stupid does."


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