Thread: Doug Fir used for fencing

Builder is defending this and I'm thinking I'm on pretty solid ground.

Doug fir used as fence rails will just rot in about 2 years won't it?

Here's the stamp and picture... any thoughts?

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• Doug Dewitz

Originally Posted by Matt Fellman

Builder is defending this and I'm thinking I'm on pretty solid ground.

Doug fir used as fence rails will just rot in about 2 years won't it?

Here's the stamp and picture... any thoughts?

Sounds like an AZ builders response, if it will last two years, they are free from any liabilty.

Originally Posted by Dan Harris

Sounds like an AZ builders response, if it will last two years, they are free from any liabilty.

It will probably take a bit longer than 2 years. I would guess maybe 7 or 8, but then again you Oregonians get more rain than we do down here.

Arrogance + stupidity: a bad combination.

AFAIK it's allowable to build a fence out of paper mache if you wish, but IMO this really is a case where the buyer ought to be wondering where else the builder cut corners.

If "properly" primed and painted they last forever, Tell them to use an oil base or

enamel. I wouldn't want to be the guy having to maintain it though.. it has to be dry and

clean when painted also or it will just peel in the first year, also prone to paint cracking

easily in areas with hot/cold climate due to expansion/contraction.. only seen a few.

I have about a 2' section of a fir 2x4 in the top of my deck that the prior owner put there probably over 3 years ago. It seems to be holding up well, but it doesn't have the rigidity of a cedar 2x4. It's near the edge so I haven't replaced it.

Anyway, it will last longer than two years, but it's also clearly going to be a problem a lot earlier than it should be.

The IRC requires that any wooden materials used in exterior locations be either naturally decay resistant or pressure-treated. Douglas Fir is neither.

Are you sure about that?

I am now. Care to contest the fact?

Well...
have you considered:
T-111 siding
Pine board and batten
Masonite
Fiberboard sidings
Wood trim, such as pine 1x?, 2x?
Deck, porch, and other railings,
Fascia board
Soffit
Door and window trim
Oh, doors and windows,
Posts and columns
and Log homes.

Does the IRC even cover fences?
Does it also include:
Arbors, swings, benches, planters, tables...?

Aaron
Now I see
You edited your first post to add "that close to the ground".
Note the time stamp is 2 minutes after my question.

So sorry my friend, but that don't fly.
Please be so kind as to show me the code(s) you are referring to.

Originally Posted by A.D. Miller

And, I even told you I did it.

Post 9 here, in case he missed it.

And, I even told you I did it.
In my haste, I did not catch it.


Getting back to the topic
I see nothing in the IRC that would prohibit a fence as shown in the OP.

Originally Posted by Matt Fellman

Builder is defending this and I'm thinking I'm on pretty solid ground.

Doug fir used as fence rails will just rot in about 2 years won't it?

Here's the stamp and picture... any thoughts?

To be honest, that's how grampa would have built it but then he would paint it right away and repaint every 5 years. What Kenny M said.

I've got pictures of old fir outside. It is grey and cracked, but not rotten. That second growth or third growth wood they sell you now is not as durable, but yeah, I would just call for paint or sealer.

Nevertheless, you're right, Mr. Contractor should know better, when there's pressure-treated wood for sale cheap in every big box store in the country.

Originally Posted by John Kogel

Nevertheless, you're right, Mr. Contractor should know better, when there's pressure-treated wood for sale cheap in every big box store in the country.

Even cedar 2x4s are not that expensive, although I'm not sure they're right for that application.

Sure is pretty though... for now...

Doug Fir is just fine for fence rails. It won't last as long as treated wood, but it will last many years if it's maintained with waterproof stain/sealer. I built a cedar fence last year and used Doug Fir for fence rails. However they would not hold up as well in wet areas like Portland, OR. If they are bare I would definitely recommend a stain or waterproof sealant be applied.

I'm curious what the expected life of cedar vs. fir is when neither board is heartwood.

PS: Matt, did you know that juniper heartwood has been accepted as a naturally decay resistant species in OR? I just thought the info. was interesting. http://www.cbs.state.or.us/bcd/progr...t_Dur_Wood.pdf

At best it is a poor choice made by a cheap-skate builder with maximum profit in mind.

Poor choice = Yes
Cheap = Maybe
Max profit= No

My experience has been, it's not so much that the contractor is "cheap", it's more often that the contractor does not have the experience, skills or knowledge to properly perform the job.
The contractor really believes he is an expert and does quality work, he just does not know any better.


I checked the local Lowe's for the price of lumber.

1x6x6' SPF* 4.86 each (* Lowe's calls it Whitewood)
5/8x5 1/2"x6' PT 1.24
5/8x5 1/2x 6 Cedar 2.47

To use 1x6x6 SPF is not only a poor choice for this use, it is also much more costly.
Cedar would be about 1/2 the cost, and PT pine less that a 1/3.
Of course these prices are for my area.
Different areas of the country cedar may be cheaper to use.

So the builder may not have been cheep so much as he is ignorant.

stupid may be more appropriate


I used ignorant because I said "...the contractor does not have the experience, skills or knowledge...".
I think stupid would be when the contractor had been told, showed, or trained, and still chose do it wrong.

Einstein was undoubtedly ignorant of many things. For example, I doubt he knew how to rebuild a car's transmission. But that ignorance does not make him stupid. Stupidity is the inability to understand.

Sorry A.D. wrong interpretation,
Stupidity is a quality or state of being stupid, or an act or idea that exhibits properties of being stupid.[1] The root word stupid,[2] which can serve as an adjective or noun itself, comes from the Latin verb stupere, for being numb or astonished, and is related to stupor.[3]
According to the online Merriam-Webster dictionary, the words "stupid" and "stupidity" entered the English language in 1541. Since then, stupidity has taken place along with "fool," "idiot," "dumb," "moron," and related concepts as a pejorative appellation for human misdeeds, whether purposeful or accidental, due to absence of mental capacity.
The modern English word "stupid" has a broad range of application, from being slow of mind (indicating a lack of intelligence, care or reason), dullness of feeling or sensation (torpidity, senseless, insensitivity), or lacking interest or point (vexing, exasperating). It can either infer a congenital lack of capacity for reasoning, or a temporary state of daze or slow-mindedness.
...also contractors have absolutely no obligation to provide quality anything as codes are minimal standards allowed period!, and do not pertain this fence. This fence is no big deal, tell client what it is, what you can expect, what they can do to extend the life and they would crazy to not buy a home they like that came out good overall in the inspection, if in deed it did.. as for terminology ignorance is usually what I find to fit best, lacking proper knowledge of..

If I may, I understand Aaron to be saying that someone is stupid when they chose to be ignorant.

I can always break out all of my unabridged dictionaries and get down to business

Only if you start with:
"extenuate" and "fallacious".

A.D. I assume attention deficit?

"After reading this statement it has become exceedingly clear to me why you spent the preceding paragraphs supporting the idea that you are an expert on the concept of stupidity".

Actually I was just voicing reality, codes ARE minimal standards and 99% of ALL builders follow exactly that standard. When it comes to the fence though I still think it's a non issue to a home you like and want.. trust me I'm the super thorough type of inspector and usually pretty tough on homes but this one is too minimal an issue considering the easy remedies, once again considering the rest of the home checked out OK..

Originally Posted by Rick Cantrell

stupid may be more appropriate


I used ignorant because I said "...the contractor does not have the experience, skills or knowledge...".
I think stupid would be when the contractor had been told, showed, or trained, and still chose do it wrong.

I think "stupid" applies as it is "stupid" for a contractor to construct what he knows not ... that is "stupid".

Now, "why" is that "stupid"? Because the contractor is "ignorant" of what he should be knowledgeable of.

Can't say I disagree, cuz I don't..

This thread has become 'stupid'.

Define 'stupid' ??

Originally Posted by kenny martin

Define 'stupid' ??

"Stupid is as Stupid does."