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  1. #1
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    Default Comments On This Flashing Technique

    This flashing technique is new to me, any thoughts on the pros and cons?

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    Default Re: Comments On This Flashing Technique

    Hi Mike,

    That's exactly what Ross and I have been specifying to our masonry building moisture intrusion clients. That looks to be chapter and verse of what the industry experts such as the Brick Industry Association recommend. Stainless steel drip edge, elastomeric flashing, stainless steel anchors.....beautiful! Did they use polyurethane caulk between the limestone butt joints?

    Dan Cullen
    www.domicileconsulting.com
    Chicago IL

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    Default Re: Comments On This Flashing Technique

    Dan,

    Do you have a link to industry documentation of the use of that sheet flashing with a separate metal edge flashing?

    My concern is the possibility of leaks at the junction between the two.

    Thanks

    Michael Thomas
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    Default Re: Comments On This Flashing Technique

    Looks great.
    Better than what I see.(way better)


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    Default Re: Comments On This Flashing Technique

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Elliott View Post
    Looks great.
    Better than what I see.(way better)

    Yup, lot's of "quality" work in the city, fer' sure.

    Today's "new roof":

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    Default Re: Comments On This Flashing Technique

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Thomas View Post
    Yup, lot's of "quality" work in the city, fer' sure.

    Today's "new roof":
    Time to call Mathews roofing.


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    Default Re: Comments On This Flashing Technique

    What is going over the membrane? Check and see if it's UV resistant. I don't believe it is.


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    Default Re: Comments On This Flashing Technique

    Michael,

    The ruler you use in the picture is brilliant. This is a little off topic but trying to show the "actual" size of problem and having a decent picture can present some difficulty. My photos usually have a tape measure locked open or some other object for reference. I am on my way to buy a metal ruler to cut down and keep in my tool pouch.

    Thank you for sharing the photo.


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    Default Re: Comments On This Flashing Technique

    Quote Originally Posted by Al Inspect View Post
    The ruler you use in the picture is brilliant. This is a little off topic but trying to show the "actual" size of problem and having a decent picture can present some difficulty. My photos usually have a tape measure locked open or some other object for reference. I am on my way to buy a metal ruler to cut down and keep in my tool pouch.
    Attached is something that I use. I print it on a clear sheet and cut them out. The crack width gauge on the bottom of the ruler works great in photos.
    There are also some pretty cool devices available on-line at forensic or crime scene supply houses Photography : Crime Scene, Forensic Supplies. Some of the buildings we look at could be considered crime scenes, so it's appropriate

    Attached Files Attached Files

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    Default Re: Comments On This Flashing Technique

    Quote Originally Posted by Al Inspect View Post
    Michael,

    The ruler you use in the picture is brilliant.
    He's got the cool extensions on his ladder, too. Great for the flat roof work. Check post #5.

    John Kogel, RHI, BC HI Lic #47455
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    Default Re: Comments On This Flashing Technique

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Thomas View Post
    This flashing technique is new to me, any thoughts on the pros and cons?
    This technique is sound but not practiced much up here in Montreal Canada.
    I have a roofers license and have learned the tin trade many years ago,although did not complete my papers.
    >,I aided in bending and preseason prep for all, bending, making template,skylight models, etc.
    > I would assist the tin smiths on day's that were slow for roofers and also aided bricklayers and became a mason later on in life.
    Now as for your photo's.
    It is sound but factors come into play with this technique.
    > More maintenance inspections than the proper use of '' cutting a rain notch'' under the copping stones that are being applied.
    They are both uses to divert water away from the brick, block, stones face,
    They divert weather to the lower field,being the top courses are the most prone to damage from ,expansion, contraction having the least weight placed upon them,and weather only exaggerates the problem on the top courses.
    That's why a copping stone is placed on top.( not the only reason ) but its adding weight if you get the drift.
    The Cerf cut ( on the copping stone or window sill ) will be like on a window sill and close to the start of the bottoms edge ,say 1/4 to 1/2 inch form the outside edge.
    Hope that helps you.
    Sorry for being long at explanation but I post that way as for one to get incite of the article of maneuver being preformed.

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    Default Re: Comments On This Flashing Technique

    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas Thayer View Post
    What is going over the membrane? Check and see if it's UV resistant. I don't believe it is.
    Limestone cap as shown some of the other pics.

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    Default Re: Comments On This Flashing Technique

    Quote Originally Posted by John Kogel View Post
    He's got the cool extensions on his ladder, too. Great for the flat roof work. Check post #5.

    One nice thing about those - on a 24 foot ladder, they will get you up to the "high" second story flat roofs common here in Chicago, I also use in them combination with a homemade "parapet ladder" - makes access to roofs with high parapet walls a piece of cake.

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    Default Re: Comments On This Flashing Technique

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Thomas View Post
    One nice thing about those - on a 24 foot ladder, they will get you up to the "high" second story flat roofs common here in Chicago, I also use in them combination with a homemade "parapet ladder" - makes access to roofs with high parapet walls a piece of cake.
    Just curious if you call out lack of flashing on sheet metal coping?
    Seems most roofers see no need for it in the area.(though your picture has roofing material as continuous)


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    Default Re: Comments On This Flashing Technique

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Cullen View Post
    Hi Mike,

    That's exactly what Ross and I have been specifying to our masonry building moisture intrusion clients. That looks to be chapter and verse of what the industry experts such as the Brick Industry Association recommend. Stainless steel drip edge, elasticize flashing, stainless steel anchors.....beautiful! Did they use polyurethane caulk between the limestone butt joints?
    All of what you have dis-scribed is a golden rule?,and wonder how long this process has been used?
    Its the true test of indurance,of time.
    > I am going to speak from sight observation and experience.
    The practicality of the use of different systems combined, instead of what was used for years is what concerns me.
    > I am a mason for brick not stone( but have practices many ) and there are several classes for masons in Quebec. re brick, fire, block, cement stone, etc.
    Now the common technique would be a full masonry bedding and the copping stones placed with a spacer made of 50/50 to what ever depth that has been chosen for bed and butt joints.1/2 inch 5/8 inch etc.
    Again copping stone have a Cerf ( rain notch ) to protect upper courses from weather.
    So by adding stainless , elastic membrane, and caulk for butt joints ,It leaves me to ask longevity.
    > I have seen the mason's example last over 30-40 to 80 years in-duration or bedding copping stones in masonry.
    Please remember maintenance is keep up to date as required times of the life of the system.
    Elastic membrane would not let the masonry bedding properly ad-tear to that surface.( the elastic sub-straight ) now it would attach it self to the copping stone but loose its contact ability under stresses from expansion and contraction from seasonal changes when the elastic membrane is placed.( to me ).
    Break its bond.
    There for causing movement and degrading before its time.
    Does anyone have factual data to represent the applications worthiness and some time line on spotting defect under normal conditions.
    Thank you again for listening me and to my questions.

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    Default Re: Comments On This Flashing Technique

    The "test of time" is not a safety or functionality confirmation. In fact, "time may be running out" after a "test of time" as taken place.

    The "test of time" has only shown that whatever-it-is has not failed "yet" ... there is no implication that it will not fail nor that it was done so well that it should last another 500 years.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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    Default Re: Comments On This Flashing Technique

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    The "test of time" is not a safety or functionality confirmation. In fact, "time may be running out" after a "test of time" as taken place.

    The "test of time" has only shown that whatever-it-is has not failed "yet" ... there is no implication that it will not fail nor that it was done so well that it should last another 500 years.
    This is what I am looking for (documented reference to that building practice.)
    I am pointing out example of old school methodology.
    I am looking for documentation.

    I am not demoting your intelligence.
    I am using reference to for example of why this practice is being used.
    It is not practiced in Montreal Canada ''for all I know'' and have not been on comerical building cites for years ( building) full time.
    I do get the opportunity to be on chimerical buildings and do repairs every now and then.
    I use term as example for conclusion in building processes for they determine the longevity of material and building practice or method.That,s all.
    So using safety as a mater of defense is illogical in the question I am asking.
    Functionality is more the determining factor here and I wonder with this type of building practice for copping stones on a parapet wall ''system in play,, how long do you think it will last before for it needs attention.
    Not to the point of safety when it degraded beyond repair and common sense.
    And I also beg to differ but the test of time is everything that is being discussed.
    At involving how long a material and its building practice''being bricklaying ''
    having been ''built this way'' as compared to a total masonry bed with copping stones having a cerf in place to shed weather..

    Please excuse me if I misused words and my meaning was lost.
    I am not here to argue but just asking questions.
    For enlightenment-learning.

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    Default Re: Comments On This Flashing Technique

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    The "test of time" is not a safety or functionality confirmation. In fact, "time may be running out" after a "test of time" as taken place.

    The "test of time" has only shown that whatever-it-is has not failed "yet" ... there is no implication that it will not fail nor that it was done so well that it should last another 500 years.
    I should have know AMERICAN LITIGATION.
    TRY TO AVOID AT ALL COSTS ''THE TRUTH''
    NOT ALWAYS ONLY WHEN MONEY-IS INVOLVED.

    Last edited by ROBERT YOUNG; 10-23-2010 at 09:06 PM. Reason: ADDING.
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    Default Re: Comments On This Flashing Technique

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Elliott View Post
    Just curious if you call out lack of flashing on sheet metal coping?
    Seems most roofers see no need for it in the area.(though your picture has roofing material as continuous)
    I'm not quit clear about the question, to you mean "the lack of sufficient overhang and/or incorrect drip edge detailing on sheet metal parapet caps?" Something else?

    Last edited by Michael Thomas; 10-24-2010 at 09:31 AM.
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    Default Re: Comments On This Flashing Technique

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Cullen View Post
    Hi Mike,

    That's exactly what Ross and I have been specifying to our masonry building moisture intrusion clients. That looks to be chapter and verse of what the industry experts such as the Brick Industry Association recommend. Stainless steel drip edge, elastomeric flashing, stainless steel anchors.....beautiful! Did they use polyurethane caulk between the limestone butt joints?
    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Elliott View Post
    Just curious if you call out lack of flashing on sheet metal coping?
    Seems most roofers see no need for it in the area.(though your picture has roofing material as continuous)
    No need for flashing in that type of roofing system BOB. I have done few and questioned the very thing you are pointing out.
    I was coming from a BRM build up roofing background into ''when this application and practice ''was new in Montreal Quebec.
    Copping is fine and it looks like a VERY well done job by the photo's and took the time to blow them up for detail.
    Good question to point out Bob. Missed by many and'' improperly mentioned about lack of flashing'' used as a diagnosis..
    The membrane is thick '' really '' strong and durable is UV protected.
    Multiply duct tape 30 times to get the Gauge.

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    Default Re: Comments On This Flashing Technique

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Thomas View Post
    I'm not quit clear about the question, to you mean "the lack of sufficient overhand and/or incorrect drip edge detailing on sheet metal parapet caps?" Something else?
    Thanks Michel for getting in the right direction.
    The use of the sheet metal. Whats that about.
    Also the use of the membrane. Whats that about.
    My theory is;
    1 > sheet metal being used. should be purer '' stainless or copper'' for longevity.
    look at the masses you are playing with.they should last for years 50 plus if methodology is proper.
    2 > membrane.
    why for now you are putting a break or material not needed into the equation.
    3 > I question the parapet wall lack of void to defuse moisture and the combination's of material in the wall.

    I will point out my theory as follows.
    1 old school thinking and practice.
    Observations by me over 35 years
    parapet wall after completion would rest till ready to accept the copping stones.
    Stones would be applied with old school technique of mortar bed, spacers made of 50/ 50 or 60/40 and but joints same as bed joint using masonry.
    Now you have added a material that will not bond properly ''I suspect'' to the masonry.
    There is a layer added. WHY.
    I am in Montreal PQ. old buildings everywhere. I have worked on retain-walls that 100 years have not moved the copping stones.
    OLD SCHOOL TECHNIQUES.
    The test of time.

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    Default Re: Comments On This Flashing Technique

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Thomas View Post
    I'm not quit clear about the question, to you mean "the lack of sufficient overhang and/or incorrect drip edge detailing on sheet metal parapet caps?" Something else?
    Sorry wrong terminology.
    I meant lack of membrane.

    Here is an excerpt from the B.I.A.

    First, most leakage problems associated with metal copings occur at splice joints. For this reason, many architects recommend using a continuous flashing membrane beneath the metal coping. This membrane covers the top of the masonry walls and roof base flashing so any water leaking at splice joints in the metal coping is prevented from reaching the top of the masonry wall below. This flashing or roofing membrane can be fairly thin because it is protected from the elements by the metal coping. Splice joints in the flashing, however, must be sealed watertight.

    When a flashing membrane is used beneath the metal coping, the critical overlap is that of the membrane beneath the coping. If the plastic membrane beneath the coping is loose laid, it must overlap the top of the masonry wall sufficiently so wind-driven rain cannot be blown up behind it. The amount of overlap is less critical in cases where the plastic flashing beneath the coping is fully adhered to the masonry.

    The Brick Industry Association (BIA) in Technical Note 36A, "Brick Masonry Details, Caps, and Copings, Corbeling, and Racking," states on page 6, "Metal caps and copings require an extension down the face of the wall, 4-inches (100 ram) minimum, and a sealant between the metal and wall to prevent wind uplift and water penetration.

    I was just pointing out that so often they just throw the caps on and seal the joints , but there is more to it than that.


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    Default Re: Comments On This Flashing Technique

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Thomas View Post
    I'm not quit clear about the question, to you mean "the lack of sufficient overhang and/or incorrect drip edge detailing on sheet metal parapet caps?" Something else?
    Sorry wrong terminology.
    I meant lack of membrane.

    Here is an excerpt from the B.I.A.


    First, most leakage problems associated with metal copings occur at splice joints. For this reason, many architects recommend using a continuous flashing membrane beneath the metal coping. This membrane covers the top of the masonry walls and roof base flashing so any water leaking at splice joints in the metal coping is prevented from reaching the top of the masonry wall below. This flashing or roofing membrane can be fairly thin because it is protected from the elements by the metal coping. Splice joints in the flashing, however, must be sealed watertight.

    When a flashing membrane is used beneath the metal coping, the critical overlap is that of the membrane beneath the coping. If the plastic membrane beneath the coping is loose laid, it must overlap the top of the masonry wall sufficiently so wind-driven rain cannot be blown up behind it. The amount of overlap is less critical in cases where the plastic flashing beneath the coping is fully adhered to the masonry.

    The Brick Industry Association (BIA) in Technical Note 36A, "Brick Masonry Details, Caps, and Copings, Corbeling, and Racking," states on page 6, "Metal caps and copings require an extension down the face of the wall, 4-inches (100 ram) minimum, and a sealant between the metal and wall to prevent wind uplift and water penetration.

    I was just pointing out that so often they just throw the copings on and seal the joints , but there is more to it than that.


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    Default Re: Comments On This Flashing Technique

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Elliott View Post
    Sorry wrong terminology.
    I meant lack of membrane.

    Here is an excerpt from the B.I.A.


    First, most leakage problems associated with metal copings occur at splice joints. For this reason, many architects recommend using a continuous flashing membrane beneath the metal coping. This membrane covers the top of the masonry walls and roof base flashing so any water leaking at splice joints in the metal coping is prevented from reaching the top of the masonry wall below. This flashing or roofing membrane can be fairly thin because it is protected from the elements by the metal coping. Splice joints in the flashing, however, must be sealed watertight.

    When a flashing membrane is used beneath the metal coping, the critical overlap is that of the membrane beneath the coping. If the plastic membrane beneath the coping is loose laid, it must overlap the top of the masonry wall sufficiently so wind-driven rain cannot be blown up behind it. The amount of overlap is less critical in cases where the plastic flashing beneath the coping is fully adhered to the masonry.

    The Brick Industry Association (BIA) in Technical Note 36A, "Brick Masonry Details, Caps, and Copings, Corbeling, and Racking," states on page 6, "Metal caps and copings require an extension down the face of the wall, 4-inches (100 ram) minimum, and a sealant between the metal and wall to prevent wind uplift and water penetration.

    I was just pointing out that so often they just throw the copings on and seal the joints , but there is more to it than that.
    You have pickup on a critical area that I did not know how to enplane and avoided the question all together.
    I to am questing the use of membrane in conjunction with masonry product atop and after the copping stones and using caulk butt jointing.
    Not the practiced masonry jointing I am use to seeing and doing..

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    Default Re: Comments On This Flashing Technique

    Robert, those sheet metal copings often rust.


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    Default Re: Comments On This Flashing Technique

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Elliott View Post
    Robert, those sheet metal copings often rust.
    I am way ahead of you Bob.I have seen it so many times.
    That's thee reason I am here asking the questions I am asking.
    Thanks for the post Bob.
    Did you read the post from the construction litigation consultant to me.

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    Default Re: Comments On This Flashing Technique

    Quote Originally Posted by ROBERT YOUNG View Post
    I am way ahead of you Bob.I have seen it so many times.
    That's thee reason I am here asking the questions I am asking.
    Thanks for the post Bob.
    Did you read the post from the construction litigation consultant to me.
    Link please.


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    Default Re: Comments On This Flashing Technique

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Elliott View Post
    Link please.
    #16 , #17, #18 ON THIS PAGE.
    I did not understand what he meant at first and then I looked at his title or occupation.
    I may be off the mark but I still have a funny feeling.
    Sorry for the edit Bob ,but I forgot to add my question to Mr.Thomas was ''#15 same page'' when I recieved his answer to my question.
    Not even an answer.
    Smoke and mirror defense.
    Exactly why I became a HI.
    Guys like this.
    Just to add and blessed I came into INACHI and people like yourself, Vern, and Roy C.

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    Default Re: Comments On This Flashing Technique

    Quote Originally Posted by ROBERT YOUNG View Post
    #16 , #17, #18 ON THIS PAGE.
    I did not understand what he meant at first and then I looked at his title or occupation.
    I may be off the mark but I still have a funny feeling.
    Sorry for the edit Bob ,but I forgot to add my question to Mr.Thomas was ''#15 same page'' when I recieved his answer to my question.
    Not even an answer.
    Smoke and mirror defense.
    Exactly why I became a HI.
    Guys like this.
    Just to add and blessed I came into INACHI and people like yourself, Vern, and Roy C.
    OK, you meant Jerry Peck.
    Distracted by report and Bears game but older techniques worked because of how everything interacted.
    As a mason you know they used more lime in the old days and 2 or three layers of brick for instance.
    How about discussing why clay tile with no membrane worked so well as an example.
    Back to my goofy Bears.


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    Default Re: Comments On This Flashing Technique

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Elliott View Post
    OK, you meant Jerry Peck.
    Distracted by report and Bears game but older techniques worked because of how everything interacted.
    As a mason you know they used more lime in the old days and 2 or three layers of brick for instance.
    How about discussing why clay tile with no membrane worked so well as an example.
    Back to my goofy Bears.
    Good game I am watching several.
    My friend owns a sport bar and a restaurant.
    Yes you make a point and I asked for documentation.
    You can add extra lime to many mix.
    I have enlarged the photo's for looking at materials and still not finished.
    I did not want,nor like to use peoples mans.
    It was how he played with the meaning of my words as to add legal address to a plan and simple question.
    I see the building envelope being played with more and more to only last its guarantee and warranted materials life.
    But in obsolescence .

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    Default Re: Comments On This Flashing Technique

    Quote Originally Posted by ROBERT YOUNG View Post
    Good game I am watching several.
    My friend owns a sport bar and a restaurant.
    Yes you make a point and I asked for documentation.
    You can add extra lime to many mix.
    I have enlarged the photo's for looking at materials and still not finished.
    I did not want,nor like to use peoples mans.
    It was how he played with the meaning of my words as to add legal address to a plan and simple question.
    I see the building envelope being played with more and more to only last its guarantee and warranted materials life.
    But in obsolescence .
    Go to Will Decker's web site as he has some good stuff on brick and Water Intrusion .Try Active Rain or his site based from Skokie Il.
    Bears sucked and I want Orton back.Cutler is shell shocked.


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    Default Re: Comments On This Flashing Technique

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Elliott View Post
    Go to Will Decker's web site as he has some good stuff on brick and Water Intrusion .Try Active Rain or his site based from Skokie Il.
    Bears sucked and I want Orton back.Cutler is shell shocked.
    Thanks Bob.
    Its just a game. plenty more games left. I think 6 or 5 before playoff's.
    I watched a bit of Pits Miami. Good game to. close.
    Thanks for link.
    Not use to active rain yet and have to catchup on whats ,whats for learning and advertising.

    Robert Young's Montreal Home Inspection Services Inc.
    Call (514) 489-1887 or (514) 441-3732
    Our Motto; Putting information where you need it most, "In your hands.

  33. #33
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    869

    Default Re: Comments On This Flashing Technique

    Very nice job, but...

    What about the ends by the limestone? It is possible for water to run under.

    Steven Turetsky, UID #16000002314
    homeinspectionsnewyork.com
    eifsinspectionsnewyork.com

  34. #34
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Chicago
    Posts
    187

    Default Re: Comments On This Flashing Technique

    Michael,

    Short of a true, full metal flashing versus the membrane and drip edge detail you've posted, that is about as good as we'll find here. Was there any sealant under the drip edge against the masonry as prescribed by BIA or the Masonry Advisory Council?


  35. #35
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    MONTREAL QUEBEC-CANADA
    Posts
    1,842

    Default Re: Comments On This Flashing Technique

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Elliott View Post
    Robert, those sheet metal copings often rust.
    Its not only that they rust BOB if inferior metals are used, and I think they are using stainless although I could be wrong.
    They get hot and I mean hot, so the bonding at the beginning is impaired .
    Masonry needs days to set properly under NORMAL conditions
    They use caulk to offset this throwing another material into the equation.
    Its also expansion and contraction rates that different with other materials surrounding it. ,you also have 3 materials in play.
    Flashing on the bed.
    Membrane as a mat with caulk covering 1/4 of the surface on both sides.
    caulk as an expansion buffer and for adhesion.
    Pins to hold it in place.
    All these take time.
    I think its to avoid the use of Masons and that trade.
    Masonry construction would save time and give a longer outcome to the project.'' I see it that way, but have no proof.''
    Many years to become a mason and not a big trade in the states as it is in MONTREAL QUEBEC or Canada.
    You only need one ,masonry.
    Cooping stones should have a bigger over-hang and curfs or rain-notch.
    That would create a longevity in materials that were used to overall building exterior health.
    Cheaper on maintenance to ''aesthetics'' appearance as the years go on.
    Just my take on it.
    A better test of time, to the application that should have been used in my opinion.

    Robert Young's Montreal Home Inspection Services Inc.
    Call (514) 489-1887 or (514) 441-3732
    Our Motto; Putting information where you need it most, "In your hands.

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