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Thread: Dryvit

  1. #1
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    Default Dryvit

    Hey guys, have another one for you. I have an inspection next week that the realtor says is Dryvit in and out. My instructors had informed me that I should not do dryvit because of the lack of specialty tools and what not. What do any of you guys do when you come to a Dryvit home. Also, How is it Dryvit on the inside or is she just confused?

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  2. #2
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    Default Re: Dryvit

    Eric
    I do not inspect EFIS, AT ALL, EVER.
    If someone ask for an inspection on a house with EFIS, I decline the inspection.
    I have not been trained in Efis, nor do I want to.
    EFIS can be have so many hidden problems that I am just not willing to get involved eith it. Let someone else take the risk.

    ' correct a wise man and you gain a friend... correct a fool and he'll bloody your nose'.

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Dryvit

    Good morning Eric,

    Dryvit is like Jello.

    Dryvit is a brand name. Jello is a brand name. Unless you or the agent are sure that Dryvit is the brand of cladding that was installed, you should use the term EIFS (sounds like reefs without the r), which stands for Exterior Insulating Finishing System. You have probably seen it many times (or not), perhaps you have seen Styrofoam (another brand name), which is actually MEPS (molded expanded polystyrene), being attached to the exterior of a building, and then covered in "cement." This is EIFS.

    Your instructor is correct. If you are not trained and experienced, you should not be doing an EIFS inspection. You should recommend a complete EIFS Inspection by an EDI (Exterior Design Institute) certified, Inspector. I specify EDI, because EDI is the foremost EIFS/Moisture inspection training organization , and emphisizes inspecting existing EIFS installations. Whereas some of the other organizations specialize in inspecting new/in progress installations. There are also organizations that teach Home Inspectors to identify the systems and surface conditions, but do not get into moisture analysis/subsurface conditions. The most important part of the inspection is the moisture/subsurface analysis. Go to www.exterior-design-inst.com, you can locate an inspector in your area.

    BUT, as a Home inspector you should be able to identify EIFS. Rap on it with your knuckles, if it sounds hollow and feels lightweight (not like stone), it is EIFS. If you push on it (strong), it will give slightly. There are other types of cladding that could possibly confuse you, but this is the basic test. Also, you can look at damaged areas (if any), or at the bottom of the system. If you see MEPS or fiberglass mesh it is EIFS (by the way, if it is installed properly, you should not be able to see the MEPS)..

    Regardless of it being EIFS, any other type of stucco, or stone veneer (which has the same problems associated with EIFS), the building should have a Moisture Analysis/Building Envelope Inspection.

    As a Home Inspector, don't be afraid to walk around the house and look at the system. If you see cracks, holes, algae, or improper clearances (just like ANY other cladding), you can report it (if you like). But, remember that it is important to refer it to a qualified EIFS inspector.

    As far as EIFS being on the inside, that is rare. But I have seen it used that way. Without being there to notice an unusual condition, generally, it is not an issue, but simply a cosmetic finish.

    By the way, Google EIFS and read about it. This way you will have an understanding of the type of problems associated with the system. Should your client ask you why they need a specialty inspection, you will not have to answer "I don't know; cuz Steve said to."

    Last edited by Steven Turetsky; 07-10-2011 at 08:25 AM.
    Steven Turetsky, UID #16000002314
    homeinspectionsnewyork.com
    eifsinspectionsnewyork.com

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Dryvit

    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Cantrell View Post
    Eric
    I do not inspect EFIS, AT ALL, EVER.
    If someone ask for an inspection on a house with EFIS, I decline the inspection.
    I have not been trained in Efis, nor do I want to.
    EFIS can be have so many hidden problems that I am just not willing to get involved eith it. Let someone else take the risk.
    Rick, I am so suprised that you have this attitude towards EIFS houses. Whether you or I like it; EIFS exists, and NEEDS to be inspected.

    As far as taking a risk, what risk is there that does not exist in any type of home inspection? Especially if you refer it. I am trained and experienced in EIFS inspections/moisture analysis/building envelope inspections... been doing them for years, and love it.

    Over time, I have read your posts, and my impression is that you are a very qualified inspector. Your clients are being denied a worthy inspection.

    What do you do when an existing/repeat client calls.? Or what do you do when you book an inspection, and discover EIFS (or any type of stucco) when you get there?

    Last edited by Steven Turetsky; 07-10-2011 at 08:27 AM.
    Steven Turetsky, UID #16000002314
    homeinspectionsnewyork.com
    eifsinspectionsnewyork.com

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Dryvit

    Rick, I am so suprised that you have this attitude towards EIFS houses.

    Whether you or I like it; EIFS exists, and NEEDS to be inspected.
    It has nothing to do with "Like or Dislike" I simply have not received the training I think is necessary to properly inspect EIFS.
    To an untrained person (inspector) EIFS can be a land-mine.

    As far as taking a risk, what risk is there that does not exist in any type of home inspection?
    I understand and accept risk everyday. I am an instrument rated pilot, I also install burglar and fire alarms. I have also received training for those.
    Flying is all about reducing the risk, so you can fly another day.

    Especially if you refer it.
    I am trained and experienced in EIFS inspections/moisture analysis/building envelope inspections... been doing them for years, and love it.

    "Over time, I have read your posts, and my impression is that you are a very qualified inspector.

    Thank you

    Your clients are being denied a worthy inspection."
    Without the proper training I an neither qualified nor worthy to inspect EIFS

    "What do you do when an existing/repeat client calls.? Or what do you do when you book an inspection, and discover EIFS (or any type of stucco) when you get there?"
    I would tell them I do not/ will not inspect EIFS, and they may wish to have someone else inspect the house. If they still want me to inspect the house I do the inspection, and recommend and EIFS inspection.

    I have thought about getting EIFS training, however in the last 5 years or so I can only remember declining 3 or 4 houses having EIFS on them. Just not enough numbers for me. Maybe later.

    ' correct a wise man and you gain a friend... correct a fool and he'll bloody your nose'.

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Dryvit

    Steven brings ups a very good point and that is EIFS is just like any other cladding when it comes down to the basics of inspecting it. You do not need specialize equipment to view improper installation details or cracked sealants, you just need to know what you are looking at.

    For those that do not inspect EIFS have you ever thought about all of the other cladding's that we see and the similar problems they can have? Do you disclaim other cladding's like brick, vinyl or traditional stucco?

    I don't know of any cladding that is absolutely 100% waterproof. All cladding's depend on proper flashing and proper sealants around penetrations, same for EIFS. All cladding's have specific installation guidelines, same for EIFS.

    Now a true EIFS inspection does require some specialized equipment and learned knowledge, but that equipment is not really needed to do a basic home inspection. I strongly encourage all home inspectors to take some training and learn the basics of EIFS. It will benifit you in many ways and not just with EIFS inspections. It will open your eyes into how and why water can enter the building envelope.

    Last edited by Scott Patterson; 07-10-2011 at 09:36 AM.
    Scott Patterson, ACI
    Spring Hill, TN
    www.traceinspections.com

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Dryvit

    Rick, I agree with everything you say, especially the part about not being enough EIFS inspections to merit the expense and time to train (especially these days).

    I just don't understand why you would refuse to inspect a home with EIFS on it. If you recommend an EIFS inspection by a qualified inspector, you are doing your job.

    I'm sure there are other items that you recommend having a specialized inspector come in to look at. Examples are; HVAC specialists, structural engineers, appliances, electricians, etc.

    Anyway, I'm not trying to convert you. Peace.

    Steven Turetsky, UID #16000002314
    homeinspectionsnewyork.com
    eifsinspectionsnewyork.com

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Dryvit

    I just don't understand why you would refuse to inspect a home with EIFS on it.
    What I said was "I do not inspect EFIS, AT ALL, EVER."
    I did say "I would tell them I do not/ will not inspect EIFS, and they may wish to have someone else inspect the house. If they still want me to inspect the house I do the inspection, and recommend and EIFS inspection.".
    I think the customer should be aware that I do not inspect EIFS before I arrive at the house.

    If you recommend an EIFS inspection by a qualified inspector, you are doing your job.
    True

    I'm sure there are other items that you recommend having a specialized inspector come in to look at. Examples are; HVAC specialists, structural engineers, appliances, electricians, etc.
    Yes

    ' correct a wise man and you gain a friend... correct a fool and he'll bloody your nose'.

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Dryvit

    Hi Scott,

    The only problem I see with Home Inspectors getting basic training on EIFS, is that they are being given "EIFS certifications," and advertise themselves as being EIFS certified."

    I'm sure most do not tell the perspective client that they are EIFS certified, but don't do complete EIFS inspections. How many do you think recommend getting "another" certified EIFS inspector to do a "true" inspection?

    In my opinion this is a walking time bomb. I hope these guys have heavy E&O insurance.

    In my opinion, basic EIFS training should not be a certification course. It should just be a course to help the average Home Inspector inspect a house that is clad with EIFS. A certified EIFS inspection should be something that the homeowner can rely on to be adequate and complete.

    Last edited by Steven Turetsky; 07-10-2011 at 10:25 AM.
    Steven Turetsky, UID #16000002314
    homeinspectionsnewyork.com
    eifsinspectionsnewyork.com

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Dryvit

    Quote Originally Posted by Steven Turetsky View Post
    Hi Scott,

    The only problem I see with Home Inspectors getting basic training on EIFS, is that they are being given "EIFS certifications," and advertise themselves as being EIFS certified."

    I'm sure most do not tell the perspective client that they are EIFS certified, but don't do complete EIFS inspections. How many do you think recommend getting "another" certified EIFS inspector to do a "true" inspection?

    In my opinion this is a walking time bomb. I hope these guys have heavy E&O insurance.

    In my opinion, basic EIFS traing should not be a certification course. I should just be a course to help the average Home Inspector inspect a house that is clad with EIFS. A certified EIFS inspection should be something that the homeowner can rely on to be adequate and complete.
    Good point and very true.

    Scott Patterson, ACI
    Spring Hill, TN
    www.traceinspections.com

  11. #11
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    Default Re: Dryvit

    Steven,

    Quote Originally Posted by Steven Turetsky View Post
    As far as EIFS being on the inside, that is rare. But I have seen it used that way. Without being there to notice an unusual condition, generally, it is not an issue, but simply a cosmetic finish.
    If EIFS is installed inside the house, wouldn't that raise concerns about foam plastic being "inside"?
    - R314.5.10 Interior finish. Foam plastics shall be permitted as interior finish where approved in accordance with R314.6. Foam plastics that are used as interior finish shall also meet the flame spread and smoke-developed requirements of Section R315.
    - R314.6 Specific approval. Foam plastic not meeting the requirements of Sections R314.3 through R314.5 shall be specifically approved on the basis of one of the following approved tests: NFPA 286 with the acceptance criteria of Section R315.4, FM 4880,UL1040 or UL1715, or fire tests related to actual end-use configurations. The specific approval shall be based on the actual end use configuration and shall be performed on the finished foam plastic assembly in the maximum thickness intended for use. Assemblies tested shall include seams, joints and other typical details used in the installation of the assembly and shall be tested in the manner intended for use.


    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  12. #12
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    Default Re: Dryvit

    Jerry,

    You brought up a very good point, and I don't really have the answer. I know that the foam used for EIFS did undergo flame spread tests (Steiner Tunnel testing), and although I don't have the results handy, as per Scopes is considered combustible (flame spread rating over 25(red oak=100, asbestos=0)).

    I did come up with these test results.

    UNDERWRITERS LABORATORIES INC. CLASSIFIED: FOAMED PLASTIC
    Control No. 85TO SURFACE BURNING CHARACTERISTICS

    1.0# Density


    Type M-77 / M-87

    1 in. Max. Flame spread +5# Smoke Developed 55-90#
    2 in. Max. Flame spread +5## Smoke Developed 55-90##
    4 in. Max. Flame spread +5### Smoke Developed 55-90###
    5 in. Max. Flame spread +5### Smoke Developed 55-90###

    + Installed in a thickness, or stored in an effective thickness, as indicated, for a density of 1.00 lb/ft

    # Flame spread and smoke developed recorded while material remained in the original test position. Ignition of molten residue on the furnace floor resulted in flame travel equivalent to calculated flame spread index of 10 and smoke developed index of 200.

    ## Flame spread and smoke developed recorded while material remained in the original test position. Ignition of molten residue on the furnace floor resulted in flame travel equivalent to calculated flame spread index of 40 and smoke developed index of 450.

    ### Flame spread and smoke developed recorded while material remained in the original test position. Ignition of molten residue on the furnace floor resulted in flame travel equivalent to calculated flame spread index of 80 and smoke developed index of 450 - over 500.
    + Thickness: 1", 2", 4", 5"

    I am not sure if it is acceptable for use inside the home, although even if it's on the outside, there are going to be fumes involved. I guess that is my homework assignment for this week.

    Last edited by Steven Turetsky; 07-10-2011 at 12:17 PM.
    Steven Turetsky, UID #16000002314
    homeinspectionsnewyork.com
    eifsinspectionsnewyork.com

  13. #13
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    Default Re: Dryvit

    The foam plastic is suitable for use in homes up to 4" (per the test results you quoted).

    However, the foam plastic needs to be separated from the interior with a thermal barrier, which is typically 1/2" GWB.

    While there can be other approved thermal barriers, I see none presented by Dryvit, and therefore do not think you could use the foam+coating on the inside of the home.

    If you could apply the coating to something else (GWB, cement board, etc) I think it would be fine on the interior.


  14. #14
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    Default Re: Dryvit

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Smith View Post
    What do any of you guys do when you come to a Dryvit home.
    I inspect it like any other cladding - with no special tools or equipment. Installers always are doing me the favor of leaving behind easy to see problems. I simply write what I see and recommend repairs. When I leave the job I don't know if there's water in the walls - but I have pretty good suspicions.

    Eric Barker, ACI
    Lake Barrington, IL

  15. #15
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    Default Re: Dryvit

    Thanks a lot guys all that was very helpful!

    E.D.S
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  16. #16
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    Default Re: Dryvit

    EPS foam and XPS foam really just melt, yes they do produce toxic fumes but more than likely the foam from sofas, chairs and the carpet pad will have already gotcha.

    Now if Polyiso board was used you will be dead as it produces cyanide when it is burned. The lamina also produces some nasty stuff.

    Many commercial buildings use EIFS details in their interior design. Just about all of Disney is made from EIFS inside and out!

    Scott Patterson, ACI
    Spring Hill, TN
    www.traceinspections.com

  17. #17
    William Brady's Avatar
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    Talking Re: Dryvit

    Hello Steve,

    Hope all is well in the Big Apple. Stop telling them to get EIFS trained it could drive us out of business. I am not jumping into this conversation beause the guys who know have already said what was necessary.

    I did not know that EIFS was being used inside. At least I have never seen it done. Are we talking about the walls or details in the case of Disney? I my area at least, only commercial uses EIFS. Everything and I mean everything if conventional stucco. I think if you stand still long enough they will stucco over you.

    Gald to see you on this post. Regards.

    Bill


  18. #18
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    Default Re: Dryvit

    Hi (ALL) &

    If that is truly there on the interior -- fix is to gut the whole home & re-do it...

    My take.


    CHEERS !

    -Glenn Duxbury, CHI

  19. #19
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    Default Re: Dryvit

    Quote Originally Posted by Steven Turetsky View Post
    Good morning Eric,

    Dryvit is like Jello.

    Dryvit is a brand name. Jello is a brand name. Unless you or the agent are sure that Dryvit is the brand of cladding that was installed, you should use the term EIFS (sounds like reefs without the r), which stands for Exterior Insulating Finishing System. You have probably seen it many times (or not), perhaps you have seen Styrofoam (another brand name), which is actually MEPS (molded expanded polystyrene), being attached to the exterior of a building, and then covered in "cement." This is EIFS.

    Your instructor is correct. If you are not trained and experienced, you should not be doing an EIFS inspection. You should recommend a complete EIFS Inspection by an EDI (Exterior Design Institute) certified, Inspector. I specify EDI, because EDI is the foremost EIFS/Moisture inspection training organization , and emphisizes inspecting existing EIFS installations. Whereas some of the other organizations specialize in inspecting new/in progress installations. There are also organizations that teach Home Inspectors to identify the systems and surface conditions, but do not get into moisture analysis/subsurface conditions. The most important part of the inspection is the moisture/subsurface analysis. Go to www.exterior-design-inst.com, you can locate an inspector in your area.

    BUT, as a Home inspector you should be able to identify EIFS. Rap on it with your knuckles, if it sounds hollow and feels lightweight (not like stone), it is EIFS. If you push on it (strong), it will give slightly. There are other types of cladding that could possibly confuse you, but this is the basic test. Also, you can look at damaged areas (if any), or at the bottom of the system. If you see MEPS or fiberglass mesh it is EIFS (by the way, if it is installed properly, you should not be able to see the MEPS)..

    Regardless of it being EIFS, any other type of stucco, or stone veneer (which has the same problems associated with EIFS), the building should have a Moisture Analysis/Building Envelope Inspection.

    As a Home Inspector, don't be afraid to walk around the house and look at the system. If you see cracks, holes, algae, or improper clearances (just like ANY other cladding), you can report it (if you like). But, remember that it is important to refer it to a qualified EIFS inspector.

    As far as EIFS being on the inside, that is rare. But I have seen it used that way. Without being there to notice an unusual condition, generally, it is not an issue, but simply a cosmetic finish.

    By the way, Google EIFS and read about it. This way you will have an understanding of the type of problems associated with the system. Should your client ask you why they need a specialty inspection, you will not have to answer "I don't know; cuz Steve said to."

    Ditto to what Steven says! I use verbiage in my report that I am performing a visual non-invasive inspection of the exterior and am not qualified/trained to perform a thorough EIFS invasive inspection and that doing so is well beyond the scope of a home inspection. I recommend consulting a qualified EIFS contractor to perform such an inspection. I look for cracks, joints at windows/doors, kickout flashing, etc. just like any other type of siding/cladding. I tell clients that the home is EIFS, I do NOT say it is Flexlite, Dryvit, etc. as in most cases, I can't tell. A few times, I've seen repair compound in the basement or garage that said Dryvit or Flexlite and this is a good indicator as to what is actually installed.


  20. #20
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    Default Re: Dryvit

    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew Steger View Post
    A few times, I've seen repair compound in the basement or garage that said Dryvit or Flexlite and this is a good indicator as to what is actually installed.
    That is a good indication of what was used to make repairs, but ...

    ... not necessarily a good indication as to what was installed.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  21. #21
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    Default Re: Dryvit

    Quote Originally Posted by Glenn Duxbury View Post
    Hi (ALL) &

    If that is truly there on the interior -- fix is to gut the whole home & re-do it...

    My take.


    CHEERS !
    .
    That's the way I read it. Wall Insulation €“ Answers to Frequently Asked Questions
    * it also burns when enough heat is applied. melts then Poof !
    .

    It Might have Choked Artie But it ain't gone'a choke Stymie! Our Gang " The Pooch " (1932)
    Billy J. Stephens HI Service Memphis TN.

  22. #22
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    Default Re: Dryvit

    Gentlemen,

    Lots of good discussion re: "Dryvit".
    I have been in the industry since 1984- have installed, sold, trained applicators and architects, was Quality Control Administrator for the warranty company that developed inspection and repair protocols for the Dryvit national class action suit and wrote warranties for all the approved houses.
    Inspection of EIFS, except for obvious visual problems, is a specific inspection. Infrared won't tell you much and Tramex gives you lots of false positives and negatives.
    EDI, AWCI and Moisture Warranty Corp all provide training- I have been through and certified in all at one time of another- and helped write the certification test for AWCI.
    Moisture Warranty Corp. trains specifically and thoroughly for moisture testing. The others (unless they have changed) include some moisture training, but mostly concentrate on new installation inspections.
    EIFS insulation board can not be used inside because of the fire issue. However, the EIFS finish can be used on the inside without the foam plastic to get the same look.
    When referred by the HI, real estate agent, bank, etc, I inspect the EIFS, analyze problems, recommend repairs and often oversee the work. Flashing, or the lack of it, is most often the cause of moisture problems- caulking is temporary and a maintenance item.
    Feel free to let me know if I can help.

    Michael J. Minigh
    MoistureTech (Exteior Envelope Consulting)
    304-904-6055


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