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  1. #1
    Chuck Kaatz's Avatar
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    Default cantalevered deck

    This deck is sturdy and the cantalever stubs are solid.
    Is there a code violation or would there be enough structural concern to recommend installing a ledger board.

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    Default Re: cantalevered deck

    The attachment of deck joists to existing cantilevers only meets Code if the local AHJ says it does. The IRC does not allow decks to be installed at cantilevers, unless they are free-standing (and therefore not really attached).

    Suggesting that a conventional ledger be installed would not be particularly wise, as that implies you condone doing something not in compliance with the IRC. It would be better to recommend the AHJ be brought into the picture, who would either give their blessings to it (if they haven't already) or demand that some form of retrofit be performed.


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    Default Re: cantalevered deck

    It's pretty much impossible to install proper flashing where the joists penetrate the siding. I would expect to see rot to the joists and sub-floor in the interior.

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    Default Re: cantalevered deck

    Not good, disclaim and defer to structural engineer.

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    Default Re: cantalevered deck

    A ledger board in this case wouldn't make sense. The joists are supported by the wall.

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    Default Re: cantalevered deck

    they bastardized what was once a deck that attached to the floor joists through the block wall.
    When the old wood rotted, they cut it off, attached smaller sized material and connected it with what appears to be ONE carriage bolt in each.
    You always have to consider that during the open house festivities on moving in, a deck will be under heavy load with 30 to 40 people doing the macccarena on it.
    Follw Jerry's advice and get a SE over to design repairs or rebuild.


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    Default Re: cantalevered deck

    The solution at this time is to make that deck a supported deck and not a cantilevered deck, and have the structural engineer design that supported deck.

    Any cantilevered deck a structural engineer comes up with for that would still be of a concern because how are they going to get back into the structure, unless that was a garage with an open ceiling. The structural engineer will likely go with a supported deck anyway.

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    Default Re: cantalevered deck

    I agree it would be best to get a SE in. Hard to tell much based on what we can see and your description. If it's a deck (supported by ground), it's got far better chances than if it's a balcony, likewise if there's a large roof overhang above and a slight pitch to prevent the water infiltration Ken mentioned. I see two carriage bolts per joist.

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    Default Re: cantalevered deck

    I wouldn't use that method of attachment if the deck is still cantilevered, but in my opinion this method of fastening the ends of the new joist to the structure would be acceptable provdied the wood tail pieces that rest within the block foundation are solid . I would also expect to see columns supporting the other end of the joists.

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    Default Re: cantalevered deck

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Kaatz View Post
    This deck is sturdy and the cantalever stubs are solid.
    Is there a code violation or would there be enough structural concern to recommend installing a ledger board.
    I would say yes to a code violation without knowing your local requirements.
    It may be working for now, but think about how it is bolted together and where the shear forces are working.

    The need for a SE or a decent contractor to advise on how to correct the structure depends on you location. From the way it looks a ledger board with bolts and hangers would seem a viable solution, as well as converting to an independent support to the ground with footers. Also, the materials for the span have to be correct.


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    Default Re: cantalevered deck

    I think an SE is overkill as there are no hidden or unseen forces at work here. A competent general contractor or deck installation professional should be able to make the appropriate corrections.

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    Default Re: cantalevered deck

    Quote Originally Posted by Garry Sorrells View Post
    I would say yes to a code violation without knowing your local requirements.
    It may be working for now, but think about how it is bolted together and where the shear forces are working.

    The need for a SE or a decent contractor to advise on how to correct the structure depends on you location. From the way it looks a ledger board with bolts and hangers would seem a viable solution, as well as converting to an independent support to the ground with footers. Also, the materials for the span have to be correct.
    I don't understand how a ledger board would work here - why it would be needed, or what kind of support it would add. The "cantilever stubs" are already well-supported at the point of the CMU wall (where a ledger board would go), it's the rest of the structure that is questionable. It would be relatively easy to improve the attachment of the deck joists to the stubs if necessary (are there any nails/screws on the side we can't see?).

    Maybe it's not the case in general, but in my job, "deck" is defined as being supported at least partially by the ground (posts and footings, usually), while "balcony" is used for structures without direct ground support.

    So, Chuck, is this a deck or balcony we're looking at? And how big? Is there much of a roof overhang above it? How old are house and deck/balcony? A photo showing more of the structure would be good.

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    Default Re: cantalevered deck

    Quote Originally Posted by Kristi Silber View Post
    Maybe it's not the case in general, but in my job, "deck" is defined as being supported at least partially by the ground (posts and footings, usually), while "balcony" is used for structures without direct ground support.
    Basically correct, but I did not want to throw in another twist into the discussion, so I just suggested that it be a "supported deck" to clarify that the ends, or at least at some other point out from the wall, be supported and that it is not left cantilevered.

    BALCONY, EXTERIOR. An exterior floor projecting from and supported by a structure without additional independent supports.

    DECK. An exterior floor system supported on at least two opposing sides by an adjoining structure and/or posts, piers, or other independent supports.

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    Default Re: cantalevered deck

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick Ostrowski View Post
    I think an SE is overkill as there are no hidden or unseen forces at work here. A competent general contractor or . . .
    Sounds good on paper, but should the deck collapse after being filled with many tons of people the owners have invited over for the grand house warming-party, you know the question that will be raised--"Why didn't our home inspector tell us to have an engineer take a look at it, when he knew (or should have known) it doesn't meet Code?"

    Competent general contractors are not allowed to practice engineering, and asking them to do so is risky, if not illegal.


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    Default Re: cantalevered deck

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Basically correct, but I did not want to throw in another twist into the discussion, so I just suggested that it be a "supported deck" to clarify that the ends, or at least at some other point out from the wall, be supported and that it is not left cantilevered.
    I don't think it's throwing another twist into the discussion to introduce basic definitions so we can all communicate. It seems like some people are assuming this is a balcony (e.g. Jerry M's diagram), when Chuck called it a deck. There's not much point in saying anything about it without knowing which it is. For all we know, the weight is all resting on posts and the stubs are for stability and attachment.

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    Default Re: cantalevered deck

    Quote Originally Posted by Kristi Silber View Post
    It seems like some people are assuming this is a balcony (e.g. Jerry M's diagram), when Chuck called it a deck.
    I think most of us presumed it was a balcony when Chuck said:
    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Kaatz View Post
    This deck is sturdy and the cantalever
    If it was a deck, it would not be cantilevered from the wall ... correct?

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    Default Re: cantalevered deck

    Quote Originally Posted by BridgeMan View Post
    Sounds good on paper, but should the deck collapse after being filled with many tons of people the owners have invited over for the grand house warming-party, you know the question that will be raised--"Why didn't our home inspector tell us to have an engineer take a look at it, when he knew (or should have known) it doesn't meet Code?"

    Competent general contractors are not allowed to practice engineering, and asking them to do so is risky, if not illegal.
    I don't see how this is an engineering issue, or how not being code compliant makes it an engineering issue. The deck was installed incorrectly. Get a professional in that field of expertise to work on it. They will either make the appropriate repairs or recommend tearing it down and starting from scratch.

    Last edited by Nick Ostrowski; 03-11-2012 at 06:20 PM.
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    Default Re: cantalevered deck

    There are those that would refer to what was originally posted as a "balcony deck." Ah.... semantics?

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    Default Re: cantalevered deck

    [quote=Jerry Peck]Re: cantalevered deck
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Kristi Silber
    It seems like some people are assuming this is a balcony (e.g. Jerry M's diagram), when Chuck called it a deck.


    I think most of us presumed it was a balcony when Chuck said:
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Chuck Kaatz
    This deck is sturdy and the cantalever


    If it was a deck, it would not be cantilevered from the wall ... correct? [/quote)

    Jerry, your reference to Chuck's quote was misleading and could be taken out of context.

    Chuck originally quoted "This deck is sturdy and the CANTILEVERED STUBS are solid."

    With that said, it could very well be a deck and not a balcony.

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    Default Re: cantalevered deck

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Amelin View Post
    Jerry, your reference to Chuck's quote was misleading and could be taken out of context.

    Chuck originally quoted "This deck is sturdy and the CANTILEVERED STUBS are solid."

    With that said, it could very well be a deck and not a balcony.
    Ken,

    I doubt it was misleading to anyone.

    "With that said, it could very well be a deck and not a balcony."

    It *could* have been a deck, but I think you were misleading when you said "could very well be" because I suspect that, while it 'could' have been a deck, that we all presumed it was a cantilevered balcony because there would be absolutely no reason to cantilever out for a "deck", and, if they were cantilevered out for a deck, then those stubs would not have been "cantilevered", would they?

    You are talking words and semantics, so I am too.

    Typically: a projecting beam or member supported at only one end

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    Default Re: cantalevered deck

    [quote=Ken Amelin;192380]
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck
    Re: cantalevered deck
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Kristi Silber
    It seems like some people are assuming this is a balcony (e.g. Jerry M's diagram), when Chuck called it a deck.


    I think most of us presumed it was a balcony when Chuck said:
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Chuck Kaatz
    This deck is sturdy and the cantalever


    If it was a deck, it would not be cantilevered from the wall ... correct? [/quote)

    Jerry, your reference to Chuck's quote was misleading and could be taken out of context.

    Chuck originally quoted "This deck is sturdy and the CANTILEVERED STUBS are solid."

    With that said, it could very well be a deck and not a balcony.
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    Misleading And Out Of Context ?

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    Default Re: cantalevered deck

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    I think most of us presumed it was a balcony when Chuck said:

    This deck is sturdy and the cantalever

    If it was a deck, it would not be cantilevered from the wall ... correct?
    When he said, "...and the cantalever stubs are solid," I took that to mean he was talking about a specific part - the bits sticking out of the wall. But I wasn't sure myself.

    that we all presumed it was a cantilevered balcony because there would be absolutely no reason to cantilever out for a "deck", and, if they were cantilevered out for a deck, then those stubs would not have been "cantilevered", would they?
    First, "we all presumed..." isn't true.

    If this thing was designed as a cantilevered balcony when the house was built, it would not have the transition it does; obviously, the "deck" is younger than the cantilever stubs. That means we can't depend on "reason" for the way the deck/balcony is now structured because we don't know how it was originally. For all we know, it's a balcony and not a cantilever.

    If it is a true cantilever balcony, and those two carriage bolts are the only things supporting it, that would be crazy. Screwing the decking down properly to the "stubs" and the joists would add some stability to the joint. Add a steel bracket of some sort (or modified joist hanger)over the top of the joists at the wall end, another under the opposite end, and you're good to go!

    This does not address the water infiltration issue.

    ****NOTE: do not mistake my off-the-cuff gut feelings for advice!

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    Default Re: cantalevered deck

    The original post said nothing about a cantilevered balcony.

    A deck was added to the house using the existing cantilevered 2x from original structure (balcony most likely), a time saver but bad construction concept.

    Should have cut off the joist flush with structure and lagged/bolted a ledger onto the house and used hangers.


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    Default Re: cantalevered deck

    Quote Originally Posted by Garry Sorrells View Post
    The original post said nothing about a cantilevered balcony.

    A deck was added to the house using the existing cantilevered 2x from original structure (balcony most likely), a time saver but bad construction concept.

    Should have cut off the joist flush with structure and lagged/bolted a ledger onto the house and used hangers.
    ^^^Exactly ^^^ KISS


  25. #25
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    Default Re: cantalevered deck

    Whether it is a balcony or a deck, cantilevered or supported is somewhat off point. The connection between the new and existing structure has to resist the forces it will be supporting. Period. The live and dead loads on the floor against the house are what they are.

    What matters, based on a tiny photo, is the quality of the original lumber you are attaching to, its support and the quality of the connection you are making between new and old wood. I don't see any thru-bolts so if this connection is simply nailed it may not be adequate to the task as Bridge Man has already said.

    What we don't want here is a moment connection that overpowers the nails either in shear stresses or pull-out. If there were a big party and the deck/balcony was crammed with human beings, I would be hanging out inside.

    This is absolutely a condition that would benefit from an SE. I would write it up as suspect and recommend the attention of an architect or engineer.


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    Default Re: cantalevered deck

    Quote Originally Posted by Kristi Silber View Post
    .
    I see two carriage bolts per joist.
    .

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Avis View Post
    .
    I don't see any thru-bolts .
    .
    Look Again.
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  27. #27
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    Default Re: cantalevered deck

    The new deck uses 2 post for support, the cantalever stubs are used for support at the house. If the stubs are solid and the joists are sistered properly I dont see a problem. This deck has enough issues to call in a structural engineer and the city inspector.


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    Default Re: cantalevered deck

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    I think most of us presumed it was a balcony when Chuck said:


    If it was a deck, it would not be cantilevered from the wall ... correct?
    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Kaatz View Post
    The new deck uses 2 post for support, the cantalever stubs are used for support at the house. If the stubs are solid and the joists are sistered properly I dont see a problem. This deck has enough issues to call in a structural engineer and the city inspector.
    .
    Wow a Deck.
    .


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  29. #29
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    Default Re: cantalevered deck

    Common sense tells me this can't be a balcony. There would not be enough support by just bolting to the sides of those through the wall joist's, which may or may not be a part of the interior floor joist's, they may be just stubs encased in the wall. Secondly they don't appear to be treated "stubs" giving a red flag to life expectancy before degradation to the point of shear. Should of cut stubs off and used a ledger board with brackets. In order to fix this without tearing deck out they should lag bolt treated lumber between each joist to wall and L bracket both sides of joist or put a ledger board under the joists whole length and bracket to the joists to tie it all together.


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    Default Re: cantalevered deck

    Quote Originally Posted by Rod Corwin View Post

    Common sense tells me this can't be a balcony. .
    .
    Common Sense you Say ?
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  31. #31

    Default Re: cantalevered deck

    For whatever its worth. it does not make any difference if you cak it a deck or a balcony. if its a cantilevered structure it shold be enginerred by a Strcuturl engkineer or an architect who is qualified. the rule of thumb shown is correct 2x the cantlever back into the building and sistered to an adjacent joist.
    the jost size must be sized to take the max superimposed load at teh outer plane. check with applicable codes, (remem ber what happend in Chicago a few years back). Chicago now requires 100 #/sf live load
    simple soulution install diagonal bracing from wall to a min of 1/3rd of the cantilver lever.


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    Default Re: cantalevered deck

    Now this is a balcony deck......................... right?

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    Default Re: cantalevered deck

    Quote Originally Posted by Garry Sorrells View Post
    The original post said nothing about a cantilevered balcony.

    A deck was added to the house using the existing cantilevered 2x from original structure (balcony most likely), a time saver but bad construction concept.

    Should have cut off the joist flush with structure and lagged/bolted a ledger onto the house and used hangers.
    What Gary said. Don't need a structural engineer for this.

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  34. #34
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    Default Re: cantalevered deck

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry McCarthy View Post
    Now this is a balcony deck......................... right?
    I stand semi corrected. That is a balcony. A balcony may or may not have front supports running to the ground. Researching I have found out that a 2nd story deck would have stairs to the ground. No access to ground would make it a balcony. Hence the original pic does not give enough info to determine if it is a deck or balcony. Either way the fact is that the pic shows that it is not the correct way of doing it. I would call it out in my report.


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    Default Re: cantalevered deck

    Has anyone considered the extra load put on the cantilever. By extending those joist outward and adding load, what about uplift on the reverse end? Thoughts?

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  36. #36
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    Default Re: cantalevered deck

    I see no thru-bolts, carriage bolts or anything. I see a little circle on one joist that could be a knot for all I can tell. Maybe your eyes are better than mine. I think my original comments about the nature of the mechanical connection hold true.


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    Default Re: cantalevered deck

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry McCarthy View Post
    Now this is a balcony deck......................... right?
    What the heck is a balcony deck?

    A balcony may or may not have front supports running to the ground. Researching I have found out that a 2nd story deck would have stairs to the ground. No access to ground would make it a balcony.
    Rod, where did you find this definition?

    According to the definition Jerry P got somewhere (which agrees with what I learned), Jerry M's example would be a deck. It's supported by the ground. A balcony is entirely supported by the structure to which it is attached, a deck is not. I know this is semantics, and there are obviously different definitions, but these seem pretty helpful and structurally meaningful.

    Whether it is a balcony or a deck, cantilevered or supported is somewhat off point. The connection between the new and existing structure has to resist the forces it will be supporting.
    But whether it's cantilevered or supported will determine the types of forces that must be accounted for. If this were a balcony the current way of tying it to the house would be much better than using a ledger board. As a deck, it doesn't make much difference, but I still don't see the benefit of a ledger board in this case except possibly for reasons of moisture control.

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    Default Re: cantalevered deck

    I see no thru-bolts, carriage bolts or anything.
    There are two bolts (presumably) with washers on each cantilever stub.

    Has anyone considered the extra load put on the cantilever. By extending those joist outward and adding load, what about uplift on the reverse end? Thoughts?
    It's not a cantilever, but if it were it would be impossible to judge without more info anyway. There are too many unknowns here!

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  39. #39
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    Default Re: cantalevered deck

    [quote=Kristi Silber;192472]What the heck is a balcony deck?


    Rod, where did you find this definition?

    According to the definition Jerry P got somewhere (which agrees with what I learned), Jerry M's example would be a deck. It's supported by the ground. A balcony is entirely supported by the structure to which it is attached, a deck is not. I know this is semantics, and there are obviously different definitions, but these seem pretty helpful and structurally meaningful.



    NACHI
    Balconies


    A balcony is a platform that protrudes from the wall of an upper floor of a building and is enclosed by a railing. Balconies are often highly decorative, especially in wealthy or scenic areas. They are not designed as social areas but, rather, add an outdoor ambiance to the indoors.

    Balcony Facts:
    • In William Shakespeare’s Romeo and Juliet, Juliet famously courted Romeo from her balcony. The small balcony design typically associated with that scene is often referred to as a “Juliet balcony.”
    • Balconies can be large enough to resemble decks, but they do not provide access to the ground.
    • "Balcony" originates from the Italian word balcone, which means “large window.”
    • Balconies can be made from wood, iron, stone, and many other masonry materials.

    From Exterior Design Features - InterNACHI Exterior Design Features - InterNACHI


    Also found this on a architecture site: A balcony is a platform built out from and only accessible from an upper story, room or corridor.


    Last edited by Rod Corwin; 03-12-2012 at 02:30 PM.

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    Default Re: cantalevered deck

    .

    Deck or Balcony?

    .

    Or to put it in perspective, "Is she skinny, thin or svelte?"

    .
    .
    .


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    Default Re: cantalevered deck

    Neither of those definitions make it sound like there are supports to the ground.

    Ironically, the reason I brought up balcony vs. deck was to simplify the conversation, but it's just become another issue. A platform that is supported on one side is going to have different structural and physical properties than one that is also supported on the opposite corners, and those properties could determine whether the current structure is acceptible or not. Since the means of support are the pertinent features here, can't we just agree to use those in the definition for now?

    I guess it's a little late in the discussion for that. Oh well, call it whatever, don't make no nevermind to me.

    Do not think of knocking out another person's brains because he differs in opinion from you. It would be as rational to knock yourself on the head because you differ from yourself ten years ago.
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    Default Re: cantalevered deck

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    I think most of us presumed it was a balcony when Chuck said:
    Quote Originally Posted by Kristi Silber View Post
    First, "we all presumed..." isn't true.
    Ummmm ... Kristi, when you make people think you are quoting someone you should at least actually quote them and not make it up.

    And the above is a good example of what Ken was talking about with 'out of context'.

    Re-read what I posted, I quoted it above, and here:

    "I think most of us presumed it was a balcony when Chuck said:"

    You tried to make others believe that I said "we all presumed..." - see the difference between what I actually said and what you made up?.

    Last edited by Jerry Peck; 03-12-2012 at 06:32 PM. Reason: spellin'
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    Default Re: cantalevered deck

    Quote Originally Posted by Garry Sorrells View Post
    The original post said nothing about a cantilevered balcony.
    Garry,

    Read the title to the thread ... "cantalevered deck".

    That says it right there, that is what sets the stage for what follows.

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    Default Re: cantalevered deck

    Quote Originally Posted by Kristi Silber View Post
    According to the definition Jerry P got somewhere ...
    Kristi,

    Those definitions are from the IRC.

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    Default Re: cantalevered deck

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Kaatz View Post
    The new deck uses 2 post for support, the cantalever stubs are used for support at the house.
    Chuck,

    Thank you for clarifying what that was - it is a deck now.

    It may originally have been a cantilevered balcony, but that we do not know, unless you found evidence that there were originally posts at the outer end.

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    Default Re: cantalevered deck

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Ken,

    I doubt it was misleading to anyone.

    "With that said, it could very well be a deck and not a balcony."

    It *could* have been a deck, but I think you were misleading when you said "could very well be" because I suspect that, while it 'could' have been a deck, that we all presumed it was a cantilevered balcony because there would be absolutely no reason to cantilever out for a "deck", and, if they were cantilevered out for a deck, then those stubs would not have been "cantilevered", would they?

    You are talking words and semantics, so I am too.

    Typically: a projecting beam or member supported at only one end
    Direct quote, Jerry. You were looking at the wrong one.

    Please don't accuse me of trying to mislead people. You should know me better than that.

    Do not think of knocking out another person's brains because he differs in opinion from you. It would be as rational to knock yourself on the head because you differ from yourself ten years ago.
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    Default Re: cantalevered deck

    Quote Originally Posted by Kristi Silber View Post
    Direct quote, Jerry. You were looking at the wrong one.

    Please don't accuse me of trying to mislead people. You should know me better than that.
    I thought I did know you better than that and searched for where I said that "all" thing and could not find it ... oops ... sorry ... I did say "all" there without the qualifier ... I try to avoid using "all", "never", etc., without a qualifier with it - I missed using the qualifier and I missed finding that when I looked for it ... even after looking through my posts several times trying to find that "all" ... not good - I must be slipping ... again, sorry.

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    Default Re: cantalevered deck

    Balcony & Deck the difference per 2007 CA Bldg. Code 1602A.1.
    Balcony Exterior: An exterior floor projecting from and supported by a structure without additional independent support.

    Deck: An exterior floor supported on at least two opposing sides by an adjacent structure, and/ or posts, piers or other independent supports.

    Jerry McCarthy
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    Default Re: cantalevered deck

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry McCarthy View Post
    Balcony & Deck the difference per 2007 CA Bldg. Code 1602A.1.
    Balcony Exterior: An exterior floor projecting from and supported by a structure without additional independent support.

    Deck: An exterior floor supported on at least two opposing sides by an adjacent structure, and/ or posts, piers or other independent supports.
    That spells things out quite clearly, for all of us who have been confused for the last several days here. Trouble is, that's a California code definition, and probably not applicable in the O.P.'s locale (MN).


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    Default Re: cantalevered deck

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry McCarthy View Post
    Balcony & Deck the difference per 2007 CA Bldg. Code 1602A.1.
    Balcony Exterior: An exterior floor projecting from and supported by a structure without additional independent support.

    Deck: An exterior floor supported on at least two opposing sides by an adjacent structure, and/ or posts, piers or other independent supports.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Kristi,

    Those definitions are from the IRC.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    BALCONY, EXTERIOR. An exterior floor projecting from and supported by a structure without additional independent supports.

    DECK. An exterior floor system supported on at least two opposing sides by an adjoining structure and/or posts, piers, or other independent supports.
    California and the IRC as the same.

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    Default Re: cantalevered deck

    I use common sense definitions:

    Deck; has stairs

    Balcony; doesn't have stairs

    Patio; a deck less than 30 inches off the ground, may or may not have stairs

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    Default Re: cantalevered deck

    I use common sense definitions:

    Deck; has stairs

    Balcony; doesn't have stairs

    Patio; a deck less than 30 inches off the ground, may or may not have stairs
    That may be a nice simple way of looking at it, but it's structurally not meaningful, and "common sense" doesn't have anything to do with it. I could just as well say the common sense distinction is balconies have solid floors and decks have planks with cracks between them. Maybe it makes sense to me, but there's nothing intuitive about it.

    Do not think of knocking out another person's brains because he differs in opinion from you. It would be as rational to knock yourself on the head because you differ from yourself ten years ago.
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    Default Re: cantalevered deck

    Quote Originally Posted by Kristi Silber View Post
    That may be a nice simple way of looking at it, but it's structurally not meaningful, and "common sense" doesn't have anything to do with it.
    Correct, it's not structurally meaningful, but common sense has everything to do with it. I do some inspections for structural engineers, but most of my clients are not in the building trades at all, so I write the reports so they understand what I'm talking about.

    That's why I use the terms sub panel and electrical outlet, for example. Not technically correct, but the general public understands them. Kind of like calling all facial tissue Kleenex or an automobile a car.

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    Default Re: cantalevered deck

    Sorry Jerry, I took the OP as possibly just a mater of giving it a title and direction of intent of question.

    How ever the OP chose to word the question and description of what was in the picture, the presumed direction was toward the attachment of the but ends of the wood in the picture. The description may have been better but I got the idea of what was going on. Not everyone can nor will give you a textbook definitive description in either the posting title or the question. Sometime close is good enough.

    In my silly world of construction technique and practices in my little corner of the world.
    If the picture was of a balcony, by any definition, it would be wrong.
    If the picture was of a deck, by any definition, it would be wrong.
    If the picture was of a bunch of lumber nailed and bolted together, it would be wrong.

    The fact that two bolts and three nails hold the wood to the wall and support the load is poor by design and not meet code. What the rest of the structure was not in the question.

    Sometime in the process we just do not look at the what is right in front of us. I do not think that Chuck's OP was attempting to make it into a trick question, looking for all the possible nuances of the potential what if scenario.

    Kristi,
    From my point of view it is about what is supporting the deck/balcony at the wall.
    The bolts will not allow, if protruding lumber is attached back into house, to pull away from the main structure.
    The issue then is the support is the deck/balcony/platform at the wall. By the force directed at the bolts in the lower portion of the 2x, what you see is a potential for the 2x to fracture the larger 2x in the lower third. Think of it as if the cantilevered 2x were notched and the deck was resting on the cantilevered section. How much of the cantilevered 2x would actually be the supporting the deck?


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    Default Re: cantalevered deck

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Rowe View Post
    I use common sense definitions:

    Deck; has stairs

    Balcony; doesn't have stairs

    Patio; a deck less than 30 inches off the ground, may or may not have stairs

    So what would you call a cantilevered balcony with no vertical support that has stairs attached to it? Balconized Deck? Balcodeck?


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    Default Re: cantalevered deck

    How about a porch?

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    Default Re: cantalevered deck

    Quote Originally Posted by Garry Sorrells View Post
    So what would you call a cantilevered balcony with no vertical support that has stairs attached to it? Balconized Deck? Balcodeck?
    I vote for balcodeck.


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    Default Re: cantalevered deck

    Any wagers as to how long it takes to reach 100 posts on this dying horse?

    Come on already, it's dead.


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    Default Re: cantalevered deck

    Quote Originally Posted by Garry Sorrells View Post
    So what would you call a cantilevered balcony with no vertical support that has stairs attached to it?
    That would be a fire escape.

    That thing in the pic is a deck. No way it would be supported by those puny fasteners and those stubs alone.

    When I see a mess like that, I wonder about the decks or balconies that have soffit covers nailed under them, with all the ugly work concealed by a nice white cover. See that a lot here..

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    Default Re: cantalevered deck

    Quote Originally Posted by Garry Sorrells View Post
    Kristi,
    From my point of view it is about what is supporting the deck/balcony at the wall.
    The bolts will not allow, if protruding lumber is attached back into house, to pull away from the main structure.
    The issue then is the support is the deck/balcony/platform at the wall. By the force directed at the bolts in the lower portion of the 2x, what you see is a potential for the 2x to fracture the larger 2x in the lower third. Think of it as if the cantilevered 2x were notched and the deck was resting on the cantilevered section. How much of the cantilevered 2x would actually be the supporting the deck?
    It's not the same as the cantilevered 2X being notched since there's sound wood there. Two small holes don't weaken the structure of the wood that much, and even the wood above the holes will provide some support. So will the decking tie the 2X6s to the 2X8s. Even if that bit were notched, it would take a lot of weight (or rotten wood) to break those. Because it's a deck, the force is straight down, not pivoting, and half the weight is on the posts (if there are only two, it can't be a very big deck). The weight along the wall is shared by multiple 2X8s.

    Unless this is a large deck, the only real issue I see is moisture management to prevent water from getting in the wall - and that may not be a problem. If not, keep it like it is. If it needs reinforcement, add steel brackets. Cutting these things off and installing a ledger board makes no sense to me.

    In the end it's impossible to say whether it's adequate, though, because we don't know the size of the deck.

    ...............

    "Deckony"?

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    Default Re: cantalevered deck

    Kristi, in all due respect you could not be more wrong!
    Be it a deck or be it a balcony, it desperately needs an evaluation by an SE and any prudent home inspector would say so in their report. That is exactly the type of work that employs folks like me if not properly disclaimed and deferred.

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    Default Re: cantalevered deck

    Quote Originally Posted by Kristi Silber View Post
    It's not the same as the cantilevered 2X being notched since there's sound wood there. Two small holes don't weaken the structure of the wood that much, and even the wood above the holes will provide some support. So will the decking tie the 2X6s to the 2X8s. Even if that bit were notched, it would take a lot of weight (or rotten wood) to break those. Because it's a deck, the force is straight down, not pivoting, and half the weight is on the posts (if there are only two, it can't be a very big deck). The weight along the wall is shared by multiple 2X8s.

    Unless this is a large deck, the only real issue I see is moisture management to prevent water from getting in the wall - and that may not be a problem. If not, keep it like it is. If it needs reinforcement, add steel brackets. Cutting these things off and installing a ledger board makes no sense to me.

    In the end it's impossible to say whether it's adequate, though, because we don't know the size of the deck.

    ...............

    "Deckony"?
    .
    Regardless of the Shown Deck Size ( abet the Larger the more problematic ) sheer strength of two bolts is insufficient to carry the probable live loads,

    * the Deck joist are not fully clamped together as noted by the shown gap and even if they were still not sufficient or allowed to support the Structure.
    ** Bolt strengths
    .

    Last edited by Billy Stephens; 03-13-2012 at 08:25 PM. Reason: added shown
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    Default Re: cantalevered deck

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry McCarthy View Post
    Kristi, in all due respect you could not be more wrong!
    Be it a deck or be it a balcony, it desperately needs an evaluation by an SE and any prudent home inspector would say so in their report. That is exactly the type of work that employs folks like me if not properly disclaimed and deferred.
    I should have been clear that I wasn't speaking from the standpoint of an HI, I was addressing Garry's comments about the structural aspects visible in the photos. Yes, I agree, it would be prudent for an HI to call in an SE, it often is to CYA.

    What part exactly do you think was wrong?

    Do not think of knocking out another person's brains because he differs in opinion from you. It would be as rational to knock yourself on the head because you differ from yourself ten years ago.
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    Default Re: cantalevered deck

    Quote Originally Posted by Garry Sorrells View Post
    So what would you call a cantilevered balcony with no vertical support that has stairs attached to it? Balconized Deck? Balcodeck?
    I'd call it wrong. Never seen one, have you?

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    Default Re: cantalevered deck

    Doing my part to get to 100 posts....

    Kristi,
    The point of my description to you was to look at the forces acting on the lumber and connection points. Guess I failed. Sorry. Every jurisdiction has its own codes. As a test take the picture to your local office and get their official opinion on the method of connection. Would love to hear the outcome. Also, most permit offices have a handout for deck construction requirements see if your permit office has one. Might ask if adding a second set of bolts at top might meet their standards.

    I will give you another task.
    Lets move this to the interior of a home.
    Would this be acceptable for splicing a floor joist?


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