Thread: Garage door retractor

Is there a minimum / max pressure for the physical retracting mechanism, not the lower eye.

Similar Threads:

• Pull down stairs in the garage- fire rated?
• decayed exterior door jambs
• garage door reversing informationm - by request
• Grandma's Garage Explosion Story
• Garage Door reinforcement

Marc, not clear on what you're asking
your answer may be in unit mfr. install instructions or these docs
DASMA Door and Access Systems Manufacturers Association

this is what a number of us use as a guide for inspecting
http://www.dasma.com/PDF/Publication...ial/TDS167.pdf

Are you asking about the obstruction (door physically hitting something in opening) auto reverse function of the opener motor?

If this is for litigation you obviously need to get the exact numbers for the specific unit from the manufacturer. You could then also compare those numbers to other comparable units on the market, etc.
For HI, I activate the door to close, put my foot under the door about a foot or so above the ground ( this is so in case it doesn't stop it doesn't crush my foot), if the door stops - great it works; if it doesn't stop - it doesn't work.

Originally Posted by Garry Sorrells

Are you asking about the obstruction (door physically hitting something in opening) auto reverse function of the opener motor?

Yes, this. It's not for litigation. Im just curious to see what the min/max pressure is required for the door to go back up once it hits an object such as a 2x4...or kid.

Jerry P has stated (repeatedly, over and over again, ad nauseum ) that it should reverse "on contact". To me, this means it should not push-down and load the motor, but should reverse nearly instantaneously. I have not seen a maximum psi (or Newtons, or Kilopascals or whatever).

Originally Posted by Gunnar Alquist

Jerry P has stated (repeatedly, over and over again, ad nauseum ) that it should reverse "on contact". To me, this means it should not push-down and load the motor, but should reverse nearly instantaneously. I have not seen a maximum psi (or Newtons, or Kilopascals or whatever).

Cool, thanks Gunnar

Originally Posted by Gunnar Alquist

Jerry P has stated (repeatedly, over and over again, ad nauseum ) that it should reverse "on contact". To me, this means it should not push-down and load the motor, but should reverse nearly instantaneously. I have not seen a maximum psi (or Newtons, or Kilopascals or whatever).

Hello All,

The contact reversing feature is an anti-entrapment feature, not an anti-crush or anti-injury feature.

I don't know what the the pressure rating is either. However, it is supposed to stop and retract within 2 seconds (is that nearly instantaneously?) just before the floor level. I forgot if there is an actual inch measurement but somewhere around 1.5" since a 2x4 laid flat is a recognized procedure.

I suppose some manufacturers may have different testing methods listed in their literature.

Sincerely,

Corey

Originally Posted by Corey Friedman

Hello All,

The contact reversing feature is an anti-entrapment feature, not an anti-crush or anti-injury feature.

I don't know what the the pressure rating is either. However, it is supposed to stop and retract within 2 seconds (is that nearly instantaneously?) just before the floor level. I forgot if there is an actual inch measurement but somewhere around 1.5" since a 2x4 laid flat is a recognized procedure.

I suppose some manufacturers may have different testing methods listed in their literature.

Sincerely,

Corey

Quite right about anti-entrapment and not pressure related.
Federal regulations govern the installation and testing of auto reversing. The basics of which are included as part of the manufacturer's installation instructions of every opener sold in the US. The manufacturer's usually leave out all the regulation verbiage and provide the information in layman's terms.

This topic has, I believe, been gone over before in this group. There are some who refuse to test the door in accordance with the regulations or manufacturer instructions because they are afraid they might damage the door.

The process involves setting an endpoint for the closing motion and monitoring the current used by the closer motor. The opener has current sensing electronics that trigger an auto reverse if the motor current exceeds a threshold before the endpoint is detected. The auto reverse requirement has been in effect since 1991. The auxiliary sensors since 1993. The regulations don't specify electric eye transponders but that is what is used since they are simple to build, install, and are cheap.

Too many stories about these cheap doors crushing for me to even think of ever using anything solid.
I hold it with my hand so I get a feel for if it is not going to stop.
Rather have them prove I am wrong than pay for a new door.

Originally Posted by Bob Elliott

Rather have them prove I am wrong than pay for a new door.

Many questions but I'll ask just this one...

If a garage door installer comes out and proves you wrong, do you pay for his service call?

Originally Posted by Darren Miller

Many questions but I'll ask just this one...

If a garage door installer comes out and proves you wrong, do you pay for his service call?

See post 6
What do you do to method do you use to test if anything?

You can question me and are welcome to but is there some reason you are not offering opinion ?

I also do not open FPE panels or offer to pay for asbestos testing so please feel free to target me and criticize but make it constructive Mr Miller.

I am a professional and my clients that include Judges and construction Lawyers approve of my methods which remain consistent and respectful of the sellers property while looking out for who hired me.


Thank You for your opinion in advance as I look forward to a well thought out reply.

Originally Posted by Bob Elliott

See post 6

"See post 6"?

Q. What does that have to do with you using your hand instead of the SPECIFIED method with the 2x4?

A. Nothing.

I am a professional ...

Then you should be testing the door as stated - with the 2x4.

If the door crushes ... and IF you have placed the 2x4 where directed ... then a door which crushes ... "failed under testing" - and that is not your fault, you do not owe anyone anything for the door which failed under testing.

Now, if you use your hand and the door falls, bends, crushes, etc., *you* SHOULD be willing to cover the costs involved as *you* did not test the door properly. This includes *not* placing the 2x4 where directed.

If you place the 2x4 where directed - the door will not crush. The top may fold because the top was not braced as it should have been, but that should be something you look for before testing the door. If you see the door is already broken at the top (from the top folding back and forth, causing metal fatigue), then you should report that deficiency and that the door needs to be replaced, at least the top panel does, and if the top panel is no longer available (it probably is not) then the door needs to be replaced.

That is what a "professional" does. The "professional" does not knowingly test something the wrong way because they are afraid of something breaking - the "professional" looks for the signs of failure before testing, reports those signs when present, and reports the failure of the door when the door fails with no visible signs of previous failure.

The "professional" knows what to do and how to react to unexpected things.

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

"See post 6"?

Q. What does that have to do with you using your hand instead of the SPECIFIED method with the 2x4?

A. Nothing.

Then you should be testing the door as stated - with the 2x4.

If the door crushes ... and IF you have placed the 2x4 where directed ... then a door which crushes ... "failed under testing" - and that is not your fault, you do not owe anyone anything for the door which failed under testing.

Now, if you use your hand and the door falls, bends, crushes, etc., *you* SHOULD be willing to cover the costs involved as *you* did not test the door properly. This includes *not* placing the 2x4 where directed.

If you place the 2x4 where directed - the door will not crush. The top may fold because the top was not braced as it should have been, but that should be something you look for before testing the door. If you see the door is already broken at the top (from the top folding back and forth, causing metal fatigue), then you should report that deficiency and that the door needs to be replaced, at least the top panel does, and if the top panel is no longer available (it probably is not) then the door needs to be replaced.

That is what a "professional" does. The "professional" does not knowingly test something the wrong way because they are afraid of something breaking - the "professional" looks for the signs of failure before testing, reports those signs when present, and reports the failure of the door when the door fails with no visible signs of previous failure.

The "professional" knows what to do and how to react to unexpected things.

Sorry but I do not agree with that method and I guess post #6 which pretty much quotes you is incorrect meaning you should take your argument up with him.

Before I reply any further do you always purposely ,or rather if and when you ever inspected did you always test mechanical devises in order to make them cause damage to property under failure ?

Be careful how you respond Mr peck.

Glad you have replied for your buddy but perhaps we should have let him respond first though as at this point he will most likely parrot you.

Now look forward to your reply.

(Busy working on a few reports but will get back tomorrow if not up late.)

Originally Posted by Bob Elliott

Sorry but I do not agree with that method ...

That's the problem: you "do not agree with that method".

That method you do not agree with IS THE APPROVED METHOD, so instead of doing what is approved, you make up your own method? Now that is highly "professional" of you.

... and I guess post #6 which pretty much quotes you is incorrect meaning you should take your argument up with him.

Nope, post #6 does quote me, and that quote is that the standards specify that the operator reverses "on contact" and that is on contact with the 2x4. Gunnar, in post #6, is right on.

THE standard is to use the 2x4, and that standard does not say how many pounds crushing force may be applied before the 2x4 separates into all of its separate fibers, no, the standard says that it reverses "on contact" with that 2x4.

That means that instead of doing what I frequently did, which was to watch and see *how high* the arm would bow while the operator was continuing to press down on the door and was trying to crush the 2x4 ... ... that means that when the door makes contact with the 2x4 ... the operator reverses the door.

Before I reply any further do you always purposely ,or rather if and when you ever inspected did you always test mechanical devises in order to make them cause damage to property under failure ?

Be careful how you respond Mr peck.

Ahhh ... one of those 'have you stopped beating your wife' types of questions ...

"Before I reply any further do you always purposely ,or rather if and when you ever inspected [B]did you always test mechanical devises in order " find out if the auto reverse worked? YOU BET!

"cause damage to property under failure", if the doors caused property damage UNDER TEST, YOU BET I wrote them up.

Do you purposely, or rather if and when you ever inspected do you always improperly test the door?

Be careful how you respond Mr. Elliott.

We all have to decide for ourselves how we want to conduct the business of inspecting the door opener, which does not belong to us nor to our clients, in most cases.
Keep in mind that 90% of the garage doors we operate have not been set up or adjusted in years, if ever.
It is all very well to say "I'm right, your door is wrong," It may not be good for your business, however. Everybody just do what you feel is the best way to serve your client.

Fully aware that the testing procedure typically requires a 2x4. At risk of causing unnecessary damage, should the reverse feature fail, I use a tennis ball spiked onto a length of plastic rod, which I use as a probe and pointer for photos. The ball, placed in the same location as the 2x4, has a little 'give' and the rod prevents it from rolling away. No, it's not the 'approved' method but it works for me. If the door reverses, as it should, then there is no need to use a 2x4. If it doesn't and crushes the ball, I reverse the door and report it as requiring repair/adjustment etc. If my 'test' was challenged, I'd be happy to use a 2x4 with the approval of the home owner and in their presence.

Haven't had a door damaged, yet.

Originally Posted by Bob Elliott

See post 6
What do you do to method do you use to test if anything?

You can question me and are welcome to but is there some reason you are not offering opinion ?

I also do not open FPE panels or offer to pay for asbestos testing so please feel free to target me and criticize but make it constructive Mr Miller.

I am a professional and my clients that include Judges and construction Lawyers approve of my methods which remain consistent and respectful of the sellers property while looking out for who hired me.


Thank You for your opinion in advance as I look forward to a well thought out reply.

Here's my macro for a properly working pressure device:

"The garage door opener is equipped with a safety pressure reverse device which operated when tested at the time of inspection using the accepted 2X method. The U.S. Product Safety Commission recommends these devices be checked monthly for proper operation and safety. Switches for door openers should be located as high as practical to prevent children from playing with the door. Children should also be warned of the potential risk of injury."

Personally, I think your 'methods' are cheating your clients (that was always Chicago's theme [remember, you took a shot at Jersey]). You seem to make your own rules as you go. Why not remove a FPE cover. There are many more items inside the panel that could harm your client and as I've seen in the past, not all FPE panels get changed just because I recommended they get changed.

But please answer my question. If a trained garage door installer "proves" you were wrong, do you pay for his service call?

Half the doors I test do not retract so the idea of damaging them is crazy talk.
I could see why a garage door maker might like that idea however.

Use common sense guys.

Originally Posted by Bob Elliott

Use common sense guys.

Bob I do..
I read the little white tag with red lettering that's says it's supposed to be stuck on the wall by the opener button

That little sticker says.. lay a 2X4 flat on the ground and check it monthly.

Dan if some of you do it that way fine and Cory who posts here operates the original classes I went to years ago where that is taught.
All said and well but the red sticker does not help you on site when the sellers sues you for damage.

If my hand does not stop it it is defective and can be adjusted.

Running late but off the top of my head I do not raise water heater temp to see if the TPR valve functions before tank blow up either and am hoping one of the silent but scared to post guys lurking out there jumps on to give other ridiculous examples of over the top testing.
I am sure we could fill a page.

Originally Posted by Bob Elliott

... I do not raise water heater temp to see if the TPR valve functions before tank blow up either ...

I have never seen anything that indicated that is an approved method to test a TPR valve. Could you provide some form of document that supports this method?

Originally Posted by Bob Elliott

Dan if some of you do it that way fine and Cory who posts here operates the original classes I went to years ago where that is taught.
All said and well but the red sticker does not help you on site when the sellers sues you for damage.

If my hand does not stop it it is defective and can be adjusted.

Running late but off the top of my head I do not raise water heater temp to see if the TPR valve functions before tank blow up either and am hoping one of the silent but scared to post guys lurking out there jumps on to give other ridiculous examples of over the top testing.
I am sure we could fill a page.

I understand the point you're trying to make.... I have installed quite a few overhead doors and openers. In fact, using my hand to "feel" the pressure and then adjust the door, is exactly how I start my adjustment process. If I can't stop it with my hand, then I turn down the down force. Then I finish with the 2x4 test.

I actually replaced a stripped trolley (gear drive) in an opener that someone had just kept turning up the pressure to accomadate the broken spring!!

Bob: It's not the way it is taught,but a Federal regulation. It is included with every door opener sold in the US. If you test something in direct accordance with the manufacturer's instructions AND Federal regulations and as JP said above there is nothing apparently wrong with or apparent damage to the door, why would you be liable for damage? Would you like to have a direct reference to the regulations?
[Code of Federal Regulations]
[Title 16, Volume 2]
[Revised as of January 1, 2002]
From the U.S. Government Printing Office via GPO Access
[CITE: 16CFR1211.15]
[Page 337-338]
TITLE 16--COMMERCIAL PRACTICES
CHAPTER II--CONSUMER PRODUCT SAFETY COMMISSION
PART 1211--SAFETY STANDARD FOR AUTOMATIC RESIDENTIAL GARAGE DOOR OPERATORS--Table of Contents
Subpart A--The Standard

If you do not wish to test the doors correctly, that's your prerogative. I'm required to and I have to have a statement in the report describing the test procedure.

The test specifies a 1-inch block but later amended to say a piece of 2x4 would be satisfactory. I imagine that was done because a 2x4 block is much easier to find than a 1 inch block.

Originally Posted by Door Guy

I understand the point you're trying to make.... I have installed quite a few overhead doors and openers. In fact, using my hand to "feel" the pressure and then adjust the door, is exactly how I start my adjustment process. If I can't stop it with my hand, then I turn down the down force. Then I finish with the 2x4 test.

I actually replaced a stripped trolley (gear drive) in an opener that someone had just kept turning up the pressure to accomadate the broken spring!!

Thanks ,and I believe it should reverse at 12-14 pounds pressure from just reading about that.

Stuart I understand and agree that there are statements about the one inch block test and testing once a month.
My issue is that so many do not pass the hand test that I would be ruining a perfectly good door panel.

Never have I run into anyone that even knows about the block test much less performs monthly tests.

If I test a GFCI and it fails then failed during testing is a great remark for the report but causing $$$ damage while testing is not my thing.

Can anyone think of any other common H.I tests that actually cause damage?

Originally Posted by Bob Elliott

...
Can anyone think of any other common H.I tests that actually cause damage?

Shower pan flood test
GFCI/AFCI that will not reset
TPR Valve that does not stop leaking
Dish washer that leaks
Cutting around the breaker panel cover that has been painted/ caulked.
Probing rotted wood with a pick
Crawling through 12" of insulation
Pulling down attic stairs
Cutting caulk around an attic access hatch
Having shower tile come off when you tap on it
Have a defective FP damper come off in my hand when I open/close it
Have the crawlspace door fall apart when I open it
Have blinds fall when I raise them
Have a light blub blow when I flip the switch
Cabinet doors/ drawers that fall apart when opened
Hose bib that would not stop dripping
Sliding door that I could not get closed
Handle on crank out window that breaks

Even had a door knob come off in my hand just last week

Originally Posted by Rick Cantrell

Shower pan flood test
GFCI/AFCI that will not reset
TPR Valve that does not stop leaking
Dish washer that leaks
Cutting around the breaker panel cover that has been painted/ caulked.
Probing rotted wood with a pick
Crawling through 12" of insulation
Pulling down attic stairs
Cutting caulk around an attic access hatch
Having shower tile come off when you tap on it
Have a defective FP damper come off in my hand when I open/close it
Have the crawlspace door fall apart when I open it
Have blinds fall when I raise them
Have a light blub blow when I flip the switch
Cabinet doors/ drawers that fall apart when opened
Hose bib that would not stop dripping
Sliding door that I could not get closed
Handle on crank out window that breaks

Even had a door knob come off in my hand just last week

LOL,I actually disagree on many and will reply to them individually soon as I have time off this tortuous report weekend.
All the guys refusing to work keep me busy.

Originally Posted by Bob Elliott

Stuart I understand and agree that there are statements about the one inch block test and testing once a month.
My issue is that so many do not pass the hand test ...

The hand test does not indicate that the door will not auto reverse at the almost closed point. Testing the hand test where one can grab the door and safely expect to get out from under a falling door (yes, doors have fallen on inspectors doing the hand test) places the test in the travel area of the door, not the near its end point, thus there is no relation between that test and autor reverse failure.

I also use my hand instead of a 2x4. While I may be legally safe using the 2x4, I think it is important to respect the owner's property. Earlier, someone mentioned common sense. However, according to the logic of some of our members, common sense, much less common courtesy are not approved items for HIs. Finally, all the discussion of being a professional is malarkey since we are really a trade. JMHO.

Originally Posted by Darrel Hood

Finally, all the discussion of being a professional is malarkey since we are really a trade. JMHO.

How are home inspectors "a trade"?

What is it that home inspectors build?

Or do home inspectors just "offer their professional opinion" on things?

Wait ... just answered part of the question - those home inspector who go around repairing and fixing things rather than write them up are tradespersons, so hopefully they are properly licensed as such and carry the required insurances as such.

But, for the rest of the home inspectors ... how are they tradespersons?

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

How are home inspectors "a trade"?

What is it that home inspectors build?

Or do home inspectors just "offer their professional opinion" on things?

Wait ... just answered part of the question - those home inspector who go around repairing and fixing things rather than write them up are tradespersons, so hopefully they are properly licensed as such and carry the required insurances as such.

But, for the rest of the home inspectors ... how are they tradespersons?

Something we can agree on.
I expect to be paid as a professional.

We are paid for opinion /not physical work performed.

Originally Posted by Bob Elliott

Something we can agree on.
I expect to be paid as a professional.

We are paid for opinion /not physical work performed.

So that's why I get tired, stiff, and sore. I work too hard!. Dang! I thought it just an age thing. Perhaps I should work on various ways to walk up to a house and write one those comments to say something like, "This house is a piece of doodoo. Call 5 different contractors to find out how much it will cost to make it at least somewhat livable."

Originally Posted by Bob Elliott

We are paid for opinion /not physical work performed.

Originally Posted by Stuart Brooks

So that's why I get tired, stiff, and sore. I work too hard!. Dang!

Sometimes brain work is more energy draining than leg work is, especially if that brain work is being done while crouched over a truss in the attic.

From yesterdays inspection; I carry an old surveyors hub with me.

Pictures worth a thousand words.

Originally Posted by Darren Miller

Pictures worth a thousand words.

The location of that piece of wood is entirely at the wrong location.

That piece should be under that vertical brace.

Otherwise, the bottom of the door will (or has a better than even chance of) being bend upward.

Originally Posted by Darren Miller

From yesterdays inspection; I carry an old surveyors hub with me.

Pictures worth a thousand words.

I cut a piece of oak 6 inches long (max height of auxiliary beams), 1-in x 1.5 in. Mark the center of the door before opening it and I place it parallel with the door bottom.

As usual, this thread has taken a turn but a turn into an interesting area. Exercising common sense learned from experience vs. the by-the-book guidelines for inspecting a feature:

We have had other discussions about inspecting beyond the SoP. I submit, that using some common sense in an inspection is also important. We use our experience to offer opinions on what we see. That is why we get the medium size pay. We should also use our experience to learn some common sense in this business.

I can recognize that a door opener needs adjusting without doing a test that I know can lead to a dangerous failure and/or a very angry seller. Like Bob, I never use a block of wood. Years ago I had a door jump out of its rail doing that. I had done less than a hundred inspections at that time and just didn't know what I know now. A garage repair guy told me that he could stay busy putting doors back on if everyone tested their doors with a block of wood. I can determine if the down force is correctly set with my hand without making an incorrectly adjusted opener force a door out of the rails. (I don't doubt that you can make a door jump out of its rail with your hand if that is your purpose.)

Jerry makes some great points as he always does, but debate is like a tennis match. You can score some great points and loose the match and this is a debate where I say that Jerry's by-the-book argument looses the match and the common sense argument wins.

For me, it is just common sense not to put a block under every garage door when the odds are good that you'll be causing trouble for yourself when you can reliably test the auto reverse with less risk of trouble. If a door drives your firm grip down, then write it up and move on. It is a lot easier to release your grip on a pile driving door than jump out of the way of a door coming out of the rails.

Here is the look on my face, when that door came out its rail.

Originally Posted by Lon Henderson

As usual, this thread has taken a turn but a turn into an interesting area. Exercising common sense learned from experience vs. the by-the-book guidelines for inspecting a feature:

We have had other discussions about inspecting beyond the SoP. I submit, that using some common sense in an inspection is also important. We use our experience to offer opinions on what we see. That is why we get the medium size pay. We should also use our experience to learn some common sense in this business.

I can recognize that a door opener needs adjusting without doing a test that I know can lead to a dangerous failure and/or a very angry seller. Like Bob, I never use a block of wood. Years ago I had a door jump out of its rail doing that. I had done less than a hundred inspections at that time and just didn't know what I know now. A garage repair guy told me that he could stay busy putting doors back on if everyone tested their doors with a block of wood. I can determine if the down force is correctly set with my hand without making an incorrectly adjusted opener force a door out of the rails. (I don't doubt that you can make a door jump out of its rail with your hand if that is your purpose.)

Jerry makes some great points as he always does, but debate is like a tennis match. You can score some great points and loose the match and this is a debate where I say that Jerry's by-the-book argument looses the match and the common sense argument wins.

For me, it is just common sense not to put a block under every garage door when the odds are good that you'll be causing trouble for yourself when you can reliably test the auto reverse with less risk of trouble. If a door drives your firm grip down, then write it up and move on. It is a lot easier to release your grip on a pile driving door than jump out of the way of a door coming out of the rails.

Here is the look on my face, when that door came out its rail.

Lon, again, it is not a force or pressure check. No one could afford an opener that had to measure pressure much less the regular calibrations. I disconnect the opener from the traveler and manually check the door open-close operation before I check the opener operation. The spring tension is supposed to balance the door anyway. Too little or too much tension is not only a safety hazard but puts an unnecessary load on the opener.

Originally Posted by Lon Henderson

You can score some great points and loose the match and this is a debate where I say that Jerry's by-the-book argument looses the match and the common sense argument wins.

For me, it is just common sense not to put a block under every garage door when the odds are good that you'll be causing trouble for yourself when you can reliably test the auto reverse with less risk of trouble. If a door drives your firm grip down, then write it up and move on. It is a lot easier to release your grip on a pile driving door than jump out of the way of a door coming out of the rails.

Lon,

The common sense approach is to *not* stand under the door and try to see if it autoreverses by catching it with your hand ... the look on your face when you are holding the door with your hand and the door comes crashing down on you is going to be better than 'a picture is worth a thousand words' ...

It is, of course, your choice as to whether you would rather *watch* the door fall or *catch* the door as it falls on you.

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

The location of that piece of wood is entirely at the wrong location.

That piece should be under that vertical brace.

Otherwise, the bottom of the door will (or has a better than even chance of) being bend upward.

See that, I learned something new today.
I just found out that when a baby or a pet gets trapped under a garage door, it will only happen under the vertical brace...

Hi, ALL &

* As to the original question - "how much pressure" - I usually educate my clients, advising "2 lbs. presssure, for safety" {now, think I can remember where I got that ?}, just like holding 2 lbs. of butter & they 'get it'.

Just that easy...

I'd have to agree - the 'debate' can become like a tennis match going overtime.


Cheers !

Originally Posted by Darren Miller

See that, I learned something new today.
I just found out that when a baby or a pet gets trapped under a garage door, it will only happen under the vertical brace...

Where you place the obstruction (2x4) has nothing to do with causing the door to reverse, but it does have a better (or worse) chance of having damage to the door.

The "Safety Reversal" Adjustment and the "Down (close) Force" Adjustment are two different adjustments. The NCHILB requires us to test the down or close force adjustment specifically.

Maybe JP can interpret the first paragraph: Grasp the door bottom when the door is about halfway through DOWN (close) travel.

Please see http://www.chamberlain.com/CatalogRe...s/114A4318.pdf

Page 28. "HOW AND WHEN TO ADJUST FORCES"

Originally Posted by Darren Miller

See that, I learned something new today.
I just found out that when a baby or a pet gets trapped under a garage door, it will only happen under the vertical brace...

Even babies know the strongest place to lay under a door where they will not cause damage to the door itself.

The intent of the placement of the test 2x is to *not* cause the door to become crushed or bent. The intent is not to replicate where a person (not necessarily a baby) might happen to fall under a closing door.

If you want to do a realistic test, use a watermelon, slice it in half, place a doll inside of it with the head, arms and legs sticking out, tape the two halves back together, then place it ANYWHERE under the closing door ...

If you get 'blood and guts' spattered all over ... very effective visually ...

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

Even babies know the strongest place to lay under a door where they will not cause damage to the door itself.

The intent of the placement of the test 2x is to *not* cause the door to become crushed or bent. The intent is not to replicate where a person (not necessarily a baby) might happen to fall under a closing door.

If you want to do a realistic test, use a watermelon, slice it in half, place a doll inside of it with the head, arms and legs sticking out, tape the two halves back together, then place it ANYWHERE under the closing door ...

If you get 'blood and guts' spattered all over ... very effective visually ...

Jerry were you busy typing or do you have me on ignore list?

Originally Posted by Vern Heiler

The "Safety Reversal" Adjustment and the "Down (close) Force" Adjustment are two different adjustments. The NCHILB requires us to test the down or close force adjustment specifically.

Maybe JP can interpret the first paragraph: Grasp the door bottom when the door is about halfway through DOWN (close) travel.

Please see http://www.chamberlain.com/CatalogRe...s/114A4318.pdf

Page 28. "HOW AND WHEN TO ADJUST FORCES"

Originally Posted by Vern Heiler

Jerry were you busy typing or do you have me on ignore list?

Vern,

No one on my ignore list. I was typing when you posted and did not see it.

This "force adjustment" has been discussed in the past, and it is use to make sure the door closes (binding in the tracks will cause the door to auto reverse) and is not an adjustment or requirement for preventing injuries to people, it is simply to make sure the door closes and still auto reverses on with the 2x4 test (see page 29).

Note the two Warning boxes:
- The "Force Adjustment" Warning box states: "Too much force on the garage door will interfere with the proper operation of safety reversal system".
- The "Safety Reversal System" Warning box states: "Door MUST reverse on contact with 1-12/" high (3.8 cm object (or 2x4 laid flat) on the floor."

The "force" adjustment is an installation adjustment and allows the door to close all the way without nuisance reverses.

The safety reversal test is the required auto-reverse test and is on a 2x4 and is to reverse "on contact with" the 2x4. Also note that the "Safety reversal system is MUST be tested every month.", there is no requirement to perform the other tests once the door is installed ... unless (of course) the door were to start reversing for no reason, then the force adjustment would need to be reset, and then the reversal test must be made "After ANY adjustments are made, the safety reversal system MUST be tested." - from the force adjustment Warning box.

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

Vern,

No one on my ignore list. I was typing when you posted and did not see it.

This "force adjustment" has been discussed in the past, and it is use to make sure the door closes (binding in the tracks will cause the door to auto reverse) and is not an adjustment or requirement for preventing injuries to people, it is simply to make sure the door closes and still auto reverses on with the 2x4 test (see page 29).

Note the two Warning boxes:
- The "Force Adjustment" Warning box states: "Too much force on the garage door will interfere with the proper operation of safety reversal system".

- The "Safety Reversal System" Warning box states: "Door MUST reverse on contact with 1-12/" high (3.8 cm object (or 2x4 laid flat) on the floor."

The "force" adjustment is an installation adjustment and allows the door to close all the way without nuisance reverses.

The safety reversal test is the required auto-reverse test and is on a 2x4 and is to reverse "on contact with" the 2x4. Also note that the "Safety reversal system is MUST be tested every month.", there is no requirement to perform the other tests once the door is installed ... unless (of course) the door were to start reversing for no reason, then the force adjustment would need to be reset, and then the reversal test must be made "After ANY adjustments are made, the safety reversal system MUST be tested." - from the force adjustment Warning box.

Grasping the bottom of the door is a listed test and is the test required by my licensure board. I believe the NC licensure board recognized the side stepping that the door operators lobbyist were able to get put into the warning labels required by law. The 2X4 test does not protect the client, just the door manufacturer.

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

Vern,


Note the two Warning boxes:
- The "Force Adjustment" Warning box states: "Too much force on the garage door will interfere with the proper operation of safety reversal system".
- The "Safety Reversal System" Warning box states: "Door MUST reverse on contact with 1-12/" high (3.8 cm object (or 2x4 laid flat) on the floor."

The "force" adjustment is an installation adjustment and allows the door to close all the way without nuisance reverses.

The safety reversal test is the required auto-reverse test and is on a 2x4 and is to reverse "on contact with" the 2x4. Also note that the "Safety reversal system is MUST be tested every month.", there is no requirement to perform the other tests once the door is installed ... unless (of course) the door were to start reversing for no reason, then the force adjustment would need to be reset, and then the reversal test must be made "After ANY adjustments are made, the safety reversal system MUST be tested." - from the force adjustment Warning box.

Am I missing something here... the "force" adjustment is the same adjustment that will reverse the door when a 2x4 is placed under the door? How is the saftey reversal test different than the force adjustment test. They are both set by the same button on the opener?

Originally Posted by Door Guy

Am I missing something here... the "force" adjustment is the same adjustment that will reverse the door when a 2x4 is placed under the door? How is the saftey reversal test different than the force adjustment test. They are both set by the same button on the opener?

Guy (and others)
Yes both are checking the force needed to reverse the door.
But the 2x4 checks that the door will reverse at any point before (=>1.5") the door is fully closed.

Lets say you use your hand to check the safety reversal at 30", and the door does reverse. That by itself does not insure the door will reverse at 1.5" above the floor. If the door does not reverse at 1.5" children and pets could get trapped under a partiality open door.
The purpose of testing at 1.5" is that no one will be trapped under a door that is only open <1.5".

So if you (not you personally, but anyone) are concerned about having damage to the door from the reversal test.
Use you hand to hold the door and check for reversal at any height, then, if the door does reverse, now use the 2x4 to check that the door reverses at 1.5".
Checking the door reversal with your hand only is not testing that the safety feature is actually working as intended.

Originally Posted by Door Guy

Am I missing something here... the "force" adjustment is the same adjustment that will reverse the door when a 2x4 is placed under the door? How is the saftey reversal test different than the force adjustment test. They are both set by the same button on the opener?

Safety reversal is dependant on the travel adjustment. The force adjustment just determines if something is crushed or not before it reverses.

Originally Posted by Rick Cantrell

Guy (and others)
Yes both are checking the force needed to reverse the door.
But the 2x4 checks that the door will reverse at any point before (=>1.5") the door is fully closed.

Lets say you use your hand to check the safety reversal at 30", and the door does reverse. That by itself does not insure the door will reverse at 1.5" above the floor. If the door does not reverse at 1.5" children and pets could get trapped under a partiality open door.
The purpose of testing at 1.5" is that no one will be trapped under a door that is only open <1.5".

So if you (not you personally, but anyone) are concerned about having damage to the door from the reversal test.
Use you hand to hold the door and check for reversal at any height, then, if the door does reverse, now use the 2x4 to check that the door reverses at 1.5".
Checking the door reversal with your hand only is not testing that the safety feature is actually working as intended.

Good explanation...

Originally Posted by Vern Heiler

Safety reversal is dependant on the travel adjustment. The force adjustment just determines if something is crushed or not before it reverses.

Kinda but not exactly
The travel adjustment could be set where the door would stop at any height, say 4" above fully closed. Even when the travel adjustment is set at the improper height, the force reversal will still work. But someone could be trapped under a door that stops at 4".
Setting the travel adjustment to stop at fully closed insures that the force reversal feature (when properly working) will open (reverse) the door if there is an obstruction at any point (=>1.5") before the door is fully closed.
No one will be trapped under a door that is open 30". but they could be trapped if the door stops at >1.5"- ?".

Originally Posted by Stuart Brooks

Quite right about anti-entrapment and not pressure related.
Federal regulations govern the installation and testing of auto reversing. The basics of which are included as part of the manufacturer's installation instructions of every opener sold in the US. The manufacturer's usually leave out all the regulation verbiage and provide the information in layman's terms.

This topic has, I believe, been gone over before in this group. There are some who refuse to test the door in accordance with the regulations or manufacturer instructions because they are afraid they might damage the door.

The process involves setting an endpoint for the closing motion and monitoring the current used by the closer motor. The opener has current sensing electronics that trigger an auto reverse if the motor current exceeds a threshold before the endpoint is detected. The auto reverse requirement has been in effect since 1991. The auxiliary sensors since 1993. The regulations don't specify electric eye transponders but that is what is used since they are simple to build, install, and are cheap.

If a door has an electric eye, is it sufficient to just waive a foot or hand across the eye to confirm proper operation or do you also have to lay a 2x4 down which, may be below the beam eye to test? Is that the auxillary sensor that you refer to?

Originally Posted by Gary Bottomley

If a door has an electric eye, is it sufficient to just waive a foot or hand across the eye to confirm proper operation or do you also have to lay a 2x4 down which, may be below the beam eye to test? Is that the auxillary sensor that you refer to?

Two different safety features, two different test.
You should do both.

A child could easily have their leg or arm trapped under the door, and not trip the photo beam. The door safety reversal feature would protect the child in this case, not the photo beam.

Deja Vo all over again. Testing the garage door. Almost hate to weigh in on this again knowing how some are so inflexible in their position and refuse to change no matter what is said. In an attempt not to deal with individual predispositions to being unconcerned if damage is caused by a failure from testing. And those that just do not want to learn a different methodology.

Testing the door operation, as to not cause any damage, is a matter of knowing and understanding the original installation process Most HI have not installed a door as a paid contractor and just do not understand all the fine points of where the installation can go wrong. The same is for the motorized opener. The first and foremost concern that an installation contractor has is not to damage (lunch) the door and have to pay for it out of his pocket (eat it). There is no profit that way. The same position should be taken by anyone that wants to test a doors operations. The installer also does not want to be injured during the installation, so they take precautions to protect themselves, as should anyone testing a door's operation.

Installation instructions and operation manuals are nice as basic primmer but they are just the beginning, not the end, of understanding the complexities of a garage door.

Marc's OP question is a good one. Though after 40 years on experience I do not believe I have heard of a specific PSI test range stated. Since it would be impractical for the installer to test with out calibrated and certified testing equipment. Being much easier to test using what you always have on the job, your hand.

The practical answer is how the door operator was first installed.
The installer would set the sensitivity so that the door would reverse with a minimal amount of resistance so that the door would not be damaged while setting the operator's range of motion. With out presetting the sensitivity it is possible that the door would be damaged as it tried to close. So the installer would try to reverse the door half way down by using his hand on the bottom edge of the door. Adjusting the sensitivity to a light resistance at first.

The final reverse sensitivity will be affected by several factors one of which is the type of seal at the bottom of the door. Some seals are stiffer and larger than others thus offer different PSI to compress and seal correctly.

The correct testing methodology of a garage door would prevent any possibility of injury. Doors just do not fall apart without cause. It is the correct methodology which will detect potential problems and protect the individual from injuries and damaging the door and operating systems.

So, prior to using a 2x material for testing on the floor it is advisable to test using your hand to see if the door will reverse with a reasonable amount of resistance. Thus preventing the possible damage of the door meeting the 2x on the floor.

By only using the 2x test as suggested by manufacturers and no other testing regiment is only creating replacement sales for the door companies.

Originally Posted by Rick Cantrell

Kinda but not exactly
The travel adjustment could be set where the door would stop at any height, say 4" above fully closed. Even when the travel adjustment is set at the improper height, the force reversal will still work. But someone could be trapped under a door that stops at 4".
Setting the travel adjustment to stop at fully closed insures that the force reversal feature (when properly working) will open (reverse) the door if there is an obstruction at any point (=>1.5") before the door is fully closed.
No one will be trapped under a door that is open 30". but they could be trapped if the door stops at >1.5"- ?".

I should have been more concise: the safety reversal "test" is dependant on the travel adjustment. If the travel adjustment stops the door more than 1.5" from closed a 2x4 won't revers the door. If the force adjustment is set to the max it won't crush a 2x4 but it will reverse if the travel is set to close all the way.

Originally Posted by Vern Heiler

I should have been more concise: the safety reversal "test" is dependant on the travel adjustment. If the travel adjustment stops the door more than 1.5" from closed a 2x4 won't revers the door. If the force adjustment is set to the max it won't crush a 2x4 but it will reverse if the travel is set to close all the way.

I think you have it.

The force adjustment should be set just above the force needed to overcome the friction to close the door.
Since the friction of the door will change from one door to another and over time, the force adjustment is set for each door at that particular time. In a year from now the force needed to close the door will likely be different due to changes in friction.
If the force adjustment is set to low the door will reverse because of the friction needed to close the door. If it is set to high, damage or injury could happen before the door reverses, if it reverses at all.

I've installed a lot of garage door openers and I always use the feel method. The feel method is where you stand with the remote in hand and literally feel the force with your hand in both the up direction and the down direction while looking carefully. I do it this way because some doors are rather flimsy and require instant response to keep from damaging the door. As an installer....if you damage a door....you buy it.....no way to spin yourself out of that. After you learn the nuances of this method it'll become clear that the 2x4 method has its limitations and maybe some liabilities. What I am saying here it its important to feel and judge exactly how much pressure is needed to open and close the door and adjust accordingly based on many factors such as door weight, alignment etc.

So, prior to using a 2x material for testing on the floor it is advisable to test using your hand to see if the door will reverse with a reasonable amount of resistance. Thus preventing the possible damage of the door meeting the 2x on the floor.

Yes, that is what should be done


By only using the 2x test as suggested by manufacturers and no other testing regiment is only creating replacement sales for the door companies.

That is not what the instruction says to do.
Using the instructions provided by Vern in post #44

http://www.chamberlain.com/CatalogRe...s/114A4318.pdf

I cannot cut and paste, so bear with me, as I’m not going to retype everything.

Page 32 under Maintenance, Every month
Check to be sure door opens and closes fully. Adjust if necessary (see pages 27/28)

Pages 27/28 tell how to make adjustments
On page 28 at #1 Test the down force
First thing it tells you is Grasp the door halfway through down travel.
If the door is hard to hold or does not reverse decrease the down force.

Now the instructions tells you to:
Repeat the safety reverse test
The instructions for the safety reverse test are found on page 29
Now is when you use the 2x4.
Place a 2x4 laid flat centered under the door,
The door should reverse on contact with the 2x4

Rick,
Sorry that I was not clear when I wrote:
By only using the 2x test as suggested by manufacturers and no other testing regiment is only creating replacement sales for the door companies.

It was directed at some suggesting that only the 2x test be performed and subsequent damage written off as "failed under testing".

My goodness people, how much plainer can it be.
THE correct method to test the reversal on a garage door includes using a 2x4.

It's OK to use your hand first, but you must use a 2x4 to determine if the reversal is operating properly. PERIOD

Yes, there is a risk of damage. (Very little if you first inspect the door and hardware, then open and close the door, as you should)
Yes, if there is damage the HO will likely not understand it wasn't your fault.


If you are so concerned about risk, you are in the wrong business.

A lawyer MUST be willing to defend the guilty as well as the innocent.
A roofer must get on roofs and risk falling.
A Doctor or nurse risk getting infection.(ever hear of Hepatitis?)
And a home inspector must be willing to accept the risk associated with performing what they are expected and paid to do.

I mean no offence, but the reason some of you are hesitant is because you do not understand (know) what you are doing, how to do it, or why it's needed. Either that or you don't care. I think, for most of you, it's the former.

I am a relative newcomer to InspectionNews, although I have been doing property inspections for 14+ years. I like this website and the information that you guys share.

And you guys have convinced me to change my inspection of garage doors. I'll still first test with my hand grip and if that is satisfactory, then I'll use the 2X4 block.

At my own home a few years ago, one of my barn cats decided to make a break for inside the garage just as the door was reaching the floor. He got quite a pinch and then the door reversed as designed. No harm, no foul and the cat was considerably wiser for the experience.

I think this topic has been thrashed more than it deserves but the discussion was still informative.

Originally Posted by Lon Henderson

...
And you guys have convinced me to change my inspection of garage doors. I'll still first test with my hand grip and if that is satisfactory, then I'll use the 2X4 block.
...I think this topic has been thrashed more than it deserves but the discussion was still informative.

Sometimes it takes a lot of discussion before the right words are said so that someone understands the Hows and Whys something should be done.
Glad you hung in there.

I built my own pressure sensor with a digital readout (thought it was awesome!), came across quite a few doors which auto reversed at over 150#! Some over 250#. According to the test, that would be acceptable since the door autoreversed within 2 seconds. Doesn't seem quite right, especially if your cat was under one of those doors...