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  1. #1
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    Default water stain on patio ceiling

    2009 built ocean view house, found this water stain on the patio ceiling, the patio faced sea side & heat pump compressor installed on patio. What can cause this water stain? IS it condensation due to coast climate? But non on the upper deck ceiling.

    Thanks

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    Default Re: water stain on patio ceiling

    Perhaps lack of proper flashing where the deck meets the wall above or lack of proper flashing under the sliding door above.


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    Default Re: water stain on patio ceiling

    This happened on the first floor ceiling(patio) which is covered by the upper deck. Plus this was on the outside of ceiling (guardrail side). That is why I think it is condensate due to seaside. But it is nothing on the upper deck ceiling. Is it so much different RH & Temp between lower & upper outside decks?

    Last edited by Peter Louis; 04-19-2012 at 11:21 PM.

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    Default Re: water stain on patio ceiling

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Louis View Post
    This happened on the first floor ceiling(patio) which is covered by the upper deck. Plus this was on the outside of ceiling (guardrail side). That is why I think it is condensate due to seaside. But it is nothing on the deck ceiling. Is it so much different RH & Temp between 1st & 2nd outside decks?

    If it's facing the water, you can expect a significant amount of wind driven rain during storms. The water getting driven onto the deck above is leaking into the structure somewhere. It can leak in at point, travel laterally along components and display at a location that is not directly below the actual leak.


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    Default Re: water stain on patio ceiling

    Thank you John, But the covered decks as this wide should not be suffering wind driven rain. plus Why is there difference between lower & upper deck ceilings?

    Yes, there is a pre-fabricated fireplace vent under the lower deck ceiling. also the HP compressor.

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    Default Re: water stain on patio ceiling

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Louis View Post
    Thank you John, But the covered decks as this wide should not be suffering wind driven rain. plus Why is there difference between lower & upper deck ceilings?
    What Pete said, and what appears to be happening, is there is a large quantity of moisture in the ceiling above the lower deck causing the paint to peel, The difference you asked about is that the lower deck is leaking. You may note in one of your photos that the upper deck is protected with a roof with proper drainage----the lower deck is not---just a floor. Suggest that you take a good look at the covering above the lower deck and the drainage provided, if any.

    Rich


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    Default Re: water stain on patio ceiling

    It kind of looks like stains I see when gutters get cleaned and the soffits don't get cleaned properly. Did the stains appear to be chronic or a one time deal?


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    Default Re: water stain on patio ceiling

    You guys....
    pale yellow house, white roof....just put on the market.....someone washed the home.
    We have ruled out a leak as they do not look look water that has dripped over time, it is likely a homeowner with a hose.


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    Default Re: water stain on patio ceiling

    you guys all rule out condensate. Most of lower deck ceiling is like this. the former pic with streak is close to compressor.

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    Default Re: water stain on patio ceiling

    Quote Originally Posted by Rich Goeken View Post
    What Pete said, and what appears to be happening, is there is a large quantity of moisture in the ceiling above the lower deck causing the paint to peel, The difference you asked about is that the lower deck is leaking. You may note in one of your photos that the upper deck is protected with a roof with proper drainage----the lower deck is not---just a floor. Suggest that you take a good look at the covering above the lower deck and the drainage provided, if any.

    Rich
    Hi Rich, the upper deck roof has to have the gutter. The lower deck ceiling (roof) which is covered by the upper should not have a lot rain water moisture, which is just like covered balcony. normally no gutter needed.


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    Default Re: water stain on patio ceiling

    Soot and grease collecting/condensing on the surface from the under-cover BBQ activities (pictured grills on both levels) of the wrap-around 2-story porch, and all that follows.

    No one should be BBQ/grilling/cooking, anywhere under cover, on either level of the porch...and especially not up against the building...and most especially not seaside exposure.

    By-laws and/or strata rules and insurance exclusions likely expressly prohibit such activities under 'building cover' if fueled; however, should also be prohibited electric as well, as per architecture, exposure/geography & topography.





    Don't see guards on upper lawn to extensive & steep terracing, nor do I see guards and handrails for the through-the-terraced decent at stairs to lower elevation seaside lawn?

    Last edited by H.G. Watson, Sr.; 04-20-2012 at 10:25 AM.

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    Default Re: water stain on patio ceiling

    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post





    extensive & steep terracing, and stairs to seaside lawn?
    Yes, close to the shore. That is why I thought condensation & compressor blow caused the stain streak.


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    Default Re: water stain on patio ceiling

    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    Don't see guards on upper lawn to extensive & steep terracing, nor do I see guards and handrails for the through-the-terraced decent at stairs to lower elevation seaside lawn?
    Mr Watson
    I don't think guards are required in those locations.
    Why do you think they are?

    ' correct a wise man and you gain a friend... correct a fool and he'll bloody your nose'.

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    Default Re: water stain on patio ceiling

    I should have mentioned, that even if that were a patio on the first level, and not a (covered) porch, using that BBQ in the NO-NO zone of the stove or fireplace vent outlet is a further enhancement of the general fire-hazard. (grease/soot collections, for example) of such activities too close to a building.


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    Default Re: water stain on patio ceiling

    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    I should have mentioned, that even if that were a patio on the first level, and not a (covered) porch, using that BBQ in the NO-NO zone of the stove or fireplace vent outlet is a further enhancement of the general fire-hazard. (grease/soot collections, for example) of such activities too close to a building.
    That looks more like a table saw in front of a lounge chair, not a BBQ.

    ' correct a wise man and you gain a friend... correct a fool and he'll bloody your nose'.

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    Default Re: water stain on patio ceiling

    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Cantrell View Post
    Mr Watson
    I don't think guards are required in those locations.
    Why do you think they are?

    Stairway from the garden/sub-level wallkout (under the porch) to the seaside lower level lawn is what I was initially referring to:

    Continuous stairway with 2 intermediate landings - each set (flight) of stairs containing more than three risers (I counted six risers per stair); topography drop =/+ 30" within 36" horizontally including the top landing, Is the continuous means of egress path from a secondary exit (french doors) immediately opposite the top of same.



    The side of the house upppermost (from first story, front of building grade level) flight of stairs has six risers, and appears open and unguarded (in the foreground of the building-adjacent stone or masonry work) to the lower level under-the-porch deck below (and to the right) which such lower surface appears within 36" out horizontally, appears to be more than 30" higher of that lower level porch surface below (as does that immediately preceeding landing surface).



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    Last edited by H.G. Watson, Sr.; 04-20-2012 at 01:32 PM.

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    Default Re: water stain on patio ceiling

    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Cantrell View Post
    That looks more like a table saw in front of a lounge chair, not a BBQ.
    I saw the table saw, just beyond it directly under the direct vent looks to me to be a BBQ grill as well.

    The building looks to be multifamily, which is why I mentioned the Strata rules.

    (That's BC, Canada's version of "Condo", just as "By-laws" is B.C., Canada's version of statutes, laws and ordinances)


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    Default Re: water stain on patio ceiling

    good job H.G

    This is not under strata but the owner run family hotel for coastal tourists.

    However, no guard needed on the lower patio(deck) there is enough room before it get deep.

    Actually yesterday 7:00-8:30 pm I got phone call from client who told me lots of water bead (only) on the lower deck ceiling most of place other than locally. It was shower & 6-10 C. The pictures I took about 2 months ago when I did the inspection. I noticed stain but I think it was condensate. I just cannot convince me why this is only on the lower patio ceiling.


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    Default Re: water stain on patio ceiling

    Mr Watson
    Do you mean "Handrails"?
    Or does Canada require "Guards"?

    ' correct a wise man and you gain a friend... correct a fool and he'll bloody your nose'.

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    Default Re: water stain on patio ceiling

    Thanks Peter.

    What about handrails and guards for those stairs (three sets of six-riser stairs) in the terraced area down to the sea?

    Is there handrail on one side out of view of the picture?

    That's a steep drop from the lawn to the first terraced step - with the childrens deck chairs about the place - that's some liability there, especially as they are renting out.

    Don't know if that vented drop cover is plastic or metal but either will cool faster than air and be slower to warm than air - offering a cool point where water can condense and surface tension will hold in place. Water droplets acting like static filtering and traping any particules from the air, residue remaining when the condensed water evaporates.

    I suspected this was the same property you posted a photo last month of a split AC condensor set next to the building under cover with exposed, unprotected, and unsecured NMWU jumped directly to it, no exterior disconnect, and a chalkboard staged/stored behind it.

    Just curious, is the sea side rental property the same one this photo came from ?




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    Default Re: water stain on patio ceiling

    Yes, good catch. They could add handrail but I do not think this is serious for this kind of landscape.

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    Default Re: water stain on patio ceiling

    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Cantrell View Post
    Mr Watson
    Do you mean "Handrails"?
    Or does Canada require "Guards"?
    I meant what I said. Go back and read the entire thread discussion. I posted highlighted photos. You seem to be focusing on an area to the left of the side yard stairway and ignoring the lower elevation covered patio deck to the right of same less than 36" out from the right of the stair and landing which is greater than 30" higher and unguarded. That six-riser stair also needs a handrail as I already metnioned, for safety.

    Both guards and handrails for the stairway through the terraced areas (although the uppermost section appears to be almost fully guarded with the retentaining walls but all three appear short in the guard/guarded department at the uppermost third of each of the three flights of stairs in that stairway), as denoted and previously stated regards the unguarded height differentals to the topography for open stairways, (guards) and each flight of stairs has six risers (each needs a handrail) for safety - as each flight (between landings) has more than three risers, in that location.

    The uppermost portion of each of those three flights of stairs are open and insufficiently guarded. A returned handail for each of those three flights of stairs is also needed.

    That stairway is a componant of a means of egress for the occupancy.

    Last edited by H.G. Watson, Sr.; 04-20-2012 at 03:02 PM.

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    Default Re: water stain on patio ceiling

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Louis View Post
    Yes, good catch. They could add handrail but I do not think this is serious for this kind of landscape.
    Peter,

    It is necessary and serious, especially for this type of occupancy and this landscape.

    They are renting out spaces for short periods to multiple persons for temporary, short-term stays. People staying there are in an unfamiliar place, exiting the building from any possible available exit in an emergency istuation (SMOKE/FIRE), especially if blinded by smoke, in the dark, confused and dazed (lack of oxygen, panic, obstructed vision, unfamiliar place) perhaps having just woken up from deep sleep, etc.

    Children present/playing as children do.

    Adults possibly intoxicated, walking back up from viewing a sunset...
    walking down in the dark. Stepplng off patio out to lawn to view stars walking too far and falling down the terrace.

    Its a major liability and safety hazard, especially since the owners are having multiple "guests" who are paying money to stay there.

    Paths to safety in the event of fire, someone is going to need to get AWAY from the towering inferno above, if their only pathway is down to the sea and the one to the street side were inpassible.


  24. #24
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    Default Re: water stain on patio ceiling

    You are right H.G.

    But most terrace stairs were built like this & nobody cared to install handrail though we can mention and suggest that.


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    Default Re: water stain on patio ceiling

    Even one life-devastating or life destroying injury is too many.

    They are changing the occupancy and use of the building. When you shift to short-term vacation hotel, B&B, hostel, etc. rentals to multiple occupants unrelated - safety requirements and liability are heightened.

    May be that they get no knocks on the front end - but the hammer will fall if anyone gets hurt. Innkeepers, guest-hosts, etc. have a higher standard to meet to paying guests/occupants than to mere visitors or invited guests. The likelihood is high that paying short-term staying tourists will be less familiar with the "lay of the land" than a tenant or residential occupant.


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    Default Re: water stain on patio ceiling

    Handrails are missing - install handrails. Just add the comment to your report. Then if grandad takes a fall, it isn't something you missed.

    Soot could be from BBQing on the lower level. The water marks could be from someone with a hose. I see lots of metal soffit covers under open decks in our climate. Condensation doesn't form under open decks like that as a rule, so it's something else. Maybe it's from big pots of steaming clams on the barby.

    BTW, BBQ under a roof is common here in the land of perpetual rain. We are HI's, not the BBQ police.

    If the house has vinyl siding, they need to learn to keep the BBQ away from the wall.

    I see a direct vent from a gas appliance under there. That could be the soot source.

    John Kogel, RHI, BC HI Lic #47455
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  27. #27
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    Default Re: water stain on patio ceiling

    Thanks John.


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    Default Re: water stain on patio ceiling

    regarding the handrails, I do not see anybody can fall from stairs. by contrast it looks like the guardrails have to be add on the terrace more necessarily. Do they look weird?


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    Default Re: water stain on patio ceiling

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Louis View Post
    regarding the handrails, I do not see anybody can fall from stairs. by contrast it looks like the guardrails have to be add on the terrace more necessarily. Do they look weird?
    Handrails are required on those stairways by the building code as you know, but forgot.
    Few old people can negotiate that many stairs without a handrail. So if you don't put in handrails, you are discriminating against old guys like HG and the two Jerrys.

    Those terraces are ok, because they are gardens. Polite people don't walk there, not a walkway.

    Yes, it is painfully slow here, too.

    John Kogel, RHI, BC HI Lic #47455
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  30. #30
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    Default Re: water stain on patio ceiling

    Peter, it is hard to see where the heat pump unit is located but if it discharges under the lower ceiling it could very easily cool the surface enough to cause condensation but it would be localized condensation only at the area that the air discharge from the unit actually cooled the surface below the dewpoint of the air in the area of the deck. Also, don't forget the gas direct vent fireplace will have large amounts of water in the vent gases.

    I too would look for the simple solutions first but there are a couple of mechanisms at work here that might be unique to the design and the coastal climate so I would not rule out the condensation theory until proven wrong. Stick to your guns!

    Jim Luttrall
    www.MrInspector.net
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  31. #31
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    Default Re: water stain on patio ceiling

    Thanks all.

    In our area GVRD, the sales number is slightly larger than that of last year. But TH & Condo took a large percentage I guess. Only part of these buyers went through home inspection.

    At this moment I always think how to have the people recognize the value of HI especially on TH & CONDO. I do not have long history in this industry. I like to hear from your guys. Any thought, Veterans?


  32. #32
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    Default Re: water stain on patio ceiling

    Hi, ALL &

    * All the debate aside - as to other matters - the surface above that water-stain must be somehow leaking, otherwise the underside would be 'clean' as the one above. Could be just a pin-hole...

    Call it "leaking" & you're done !


    CHEERS !

    -Glenn Duxbury, CHI

  33. #33
    Stephen Houmard's Avatar
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    Default Re: water stain on patio ceiling

    I'm telling you it's from power washing.


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