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  1. #1
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    Default lattice deck guards

    Acceptable?
    For what it's worth, the lattice is very well secured and the railings are solid as a rock.

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  2. #2
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    Default Re: lattice deck guards

    I would think so.

    ' correct a wise man and you gain a friend... correct a fool and he'll bloody your nose'.

  3. #3
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    Default Re: lattice deck guards

    I wouldn't have an issue with it. Hard to imagine a child pushing his way through that.

    Eric Barker, ACI
    Lake Barrington, IL

  4. #4

    Default Re: lattice deck guards

    That appears to be a tight enough lattice to prevent hands and feet from being able to utilize it for climbing. That is a requirement here; no hoizontal wire railings allowed here!http://westcoastdecks.com/images/rai...ire%20Rail.jpg

    Egbert Jager
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  5. #5
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    Default Re: lattice deck guards

    I'd be inclined to write it up as a possible climbable guardrail (the openings appear wide enough to allow a typical 4-yr-old's feet to gain entry), and suggest a tighter screen of some sort be installed along the bottom half to prevent climbing. Judging by the height above the ground, Junior's a goner if he goes up and over the top when Mama takes her eyes off of him for a moment or two. The unreinforced vertical butt joint between lattice sections might also have trouble resisting the IRC 200-lb. horizontal point load (250-lb. to meet ADA requirements).

    Last edited by BridgeMan; 11-02-2012 at 10:12 PM.

  6. #6
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    Default Re: lattice deck guards

    Quote Originally Posted by BridgeMan View Post
    The unreinforced vertical butt joint between lattice sections might also have trouble resisting the IRC 200-lb. horizontal point load (250-lb. to meet ADA requirements).
    The lattice is called the "guardrail in-fill".
    The Live load rating for in-fill is 50 lbs
    I think the lattice can handle 50

    ' correct a wise man and you gain a friend... correct a fool and he'll bloody your nose'.

  7. #7
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    Default Re: lattice deck guards

    ...so little 4 year old Johnny thwarts the inability to get a foot hold on the lattice and pulls a chair over and topples over...

    I often recommend a tight weave lattice on open deck railings. This weave as Bridgeman points out looks to be a larger weave.


  8. #8
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    Default Re: lattice deck guards

    The requirements for the in-fill panel (the lattice) is that it be capable of withstanding a minimum 50 pound horizontal force, applied to an area of 1 foot square, against the lattice.

    From the 2006 IRC:
    - Table R301.5
    - - Guardrails in-fill components note f - Live Load - 50 note i
    - - - note f. Guard in-fill components (all those except the handrail), balusters and panel fillers shall be designed to withstand a horizontally applied normal load of 50 pounds on an area equal to 1 square foot. This load need not be assumed to act concurrently with any other live load requirement.
    - - - note i. Glazing used in handrail assemblies and guards shall be designed with a safety factor of 4. The safety factor shall be applied to each of the concentrated loads applied to the top of the rail, and to the load on the in-fill components. These loads shall be determined independent of one another, and loads are assumed not to occur with any other live load.

    I am note sure that lattice will resist that 50 pound load.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  9. #9
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    Default Re: lattice deck guards

    Ad if the safety factor of 4 is added to the mix, it certainly won't meet the 301.5 loading requirement.


  10. #10
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    Default Re: lattice deck guards

    Quote Originally Posted by BridgeMan View Post
    Ad if the safety factor of 4 is added to the mix, it certainly won't meet the 301.5 loading requirement.
    The safety factor of 4 applies only on glazing (glass), not wood lattice.

    ' correct a wise man and you gain a friend... correct a fool and he'll bloody your nose'.

  11. #11
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    Default Re: lattice deck guards

    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Cantrell View Post
    The safety factor of 4 applies only on glazing (glass), not wood lattice.
    Typically, there is always a safety factor of 2 figured into most things, with higher safety factors, such as 4, figured into other things.

    This also applies:
    - From the 2012 IRC:
    - - R301.5 Live load. The minimum uniformly distributed live load shall be as provided in Table R301.5.
    - - R301.7 Deflection. The allowable deflection of any structural member under the live load listed in Sections R301.5 and R301.6 shall not exceed the values in Table R301.7.

    The information from Table R301.5 I posted previously is referenced by R301.5, R301.7 states the maximum allowed deflection is in accordance with Table R301.7, i.e., the 50 pound load is not a 'break through' limit, it is a 'deflection limit'.

    I'm not sure which deflection limit in Table R301.7 applies (if any), but it would either be L/240 or L/120 (if this applied). Again, that 50 pound load is not a 'break through' limit.

    The ASTM standard for testing guard in-fill panels is that the 50 pound load does not deform the in-fill sufficiently to allow the 4" sphere to pass. That is the "safety factor" I would apply to guard in-fill panels - not 'break through' but 'still does not allow a 4" sphere to pass through'.

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  12. #12
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    Default Re: lattice deck guards

    I don't know about deflection limits.
    Sounds a little much to me.
    How about using chain link fence.
    Certainly no one would question that chain link fence is strong enough, but it would also deflect a lot.

    I think the wood lattice shown would hold up just fine.

    ' correct a wise man and you gain a friend... correct a fool and he'll bloody your nose'.

  13. #13
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    Default Re: lattice deck guards

    It's my thought that you guys are over-thinking this. Makes me wonder how long some of your reports are and whether anything is left unscathed after your inspections.

    A few years ago I was at a chapter dinner where they were showing photos for report writing purposes. One photo was of a properly installed roof vent. A simple as the photo was, it was pretty amazing with what "problems" the guys thought they were seeing.

    Eric Barker, ACI
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    Default Re: lattice deck guards

    Eric

    I don't know about the rest, but I am looking for the major stuff not nickel-dime stuff, like new shingles required, foundation/framing issues, electrical...

    Some seem to think they need to report the toilet paper roll is on back wards.


    Frankly looking at the lattice again I am not so sure I would be writing it up.


  15. #15
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    Default Re: lattice deck guards

    Toilet paper rolls need to be installed properly...it's a deal breaker


  16. #16
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    Default Re: lattice deck guards

    Quote Originally Posted by Stephen G View Post
    Toilet paper rolls need to be installed properly...it's a deal breaker
    If it's that Industrial Grade 100 Grit.

    It Might have Choked Artie But it ain't gone'a choke Stymie! Our Gang " The Pooch " (1932)
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  17. #17
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    Default Re: lattice deck guards

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Barker View Post
    It's my thought that you guys are over-thinking this.
    The OP had a photo, then the one word question "Acceptable?".
    I was the first to respond with "I would think so."
    Of course my post was just my opinion.
    But what followed was discussion and clarification on what the code says.

    I think it was quite educational.

    ' correct a wise man and you gain a friend... correct a fool and he'll bloody your nose'.

  18. #18
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    Default Re: lattice deck guards

    And so no one would even bother commenting about the sharp top profile of the lattice, where one expects a relatively smooth railing surface? I think there's a definite potential for hand or forearm injury to the unsuspecting house guest, and would state so on my report.

    Maybe I'm just gun-shy with respect to trying to protect people from themselves. Been sued too many times while working in the public sector, once even for having one of my bridges in the wrong place (drunk client hit a a concrete pier column doing 70 mph with his Corvette, killed instantly).


  19. #19
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    Default Re: lattice deck guards

    Quote Originally Posted by BridgeMan View Post
    And so no one would even bother commenting about the sharp top profile of the lattice, where one expects a relatively smooth railing surface?
    Well, actually no.
    I don't think there is an expectation of a "relatively smooth railing surface".
    It's not uncommon to see decks with pickets.
    I even think it may be a good idea to use pickets.

    ' correct a wise man and you gain a friend... correct a fool and he'll bloody your nose'.

  20. #20
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    Default Re: lattice deck guards

    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Cantrell View Post
    Well, actually no.
    I don't think there is an expectation of a "relatively smooth railing surface".
    It's not uncommon to see decks with pickets.
    I even think it may be a good idea to use pickets.
    Whenever I find railings with the ends of pickets, balusters, whatever sticking up above the top rail ... I report them a impalement hazards ... because they are.

    The entire reason for the guard railing is in case someone 'accidentally' falls against it and the guard railing keeps them from going over the edge. Now consider 'accidentally' falling against a guard railing with spear points sticking up ... YIKES!

    The railing is not there to lean on or against and look at the view, it is to keep a person from falling over the edge of the raised floor surface.

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  21. #21
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    Default Re: lattice deck guards

    I see you and I have different life experiences.
    Where I come from I think of a picket as something like a 2x2 maybe cut at a 45, not a "SPEAR POINT".
    As for being impaled, you can be impaled on a 4x4, with enough force.
    Do you also consider a newel post an impalement hazard?
    I disagree that
    "The entire reason for the guard railing is in case someone 'accidentally' falls against it and the guard railing keeps them from going over the edge."

    Yes, the assemble is to help protect someone from falling over the edge.
    Not just someone that accidentally falls on the railing.

    Added in edit
    And yes, the guard railing is there to lean on, or at least it is expected that someone will lean on it. That may be why it has a requirement to hold up to a 200 lb force, it is expected that someone will lean on it. But I think that there is little if any danger of impalement from leaning on a row of pickets. Spear points, maybe, but not pickets.

    Last edited by Rick Cantrell; 11-04-2012 at 02:26 PM.
    ' correct a wise man and you gain a friend... correct a fool and he'll bloody your nose'.

  22. #22
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    Default Re: lattice deck guards

    Quote Originally Posted by BridgeMan View Post
    Maybe I'm just gun-shy with respect to trying to protect people from themselves.
    I understand the concern but somewhere along the line a report can go from useful to down right useless if one were to follow some standard with no room for allowances. How often do any of us get traffic tickets for not making an absolute stop at a stop sign or for not keeping proper distance to the cars in front of us? Sometimes being close can be good enough.

    Eric Barker, ACI
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  23. #23
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    Default Re: lattice deck guards

    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Cantrell View Post
    And yes, the guard railing is there to lean on, or at least it is expected that someone will lean on it. That may be why it has a requirement to hold up to a 200 lb force, it is expected that someone will lean on it.
    Nope. If that were the case then the 200 pound load would only apply in one direction, that of which a person leaning on the top rail would be leaning.

    The 200 pound load is to be resisted in *all* directions, such as when someone falls against the top rail, falls *over* the top rail and hangs on, etc.

    The codes do not address convenience, such as having a railing there to lean on, the codes address safety, such as falling against the railing and *not* falling over it, or taking the railing with you when you fall.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  24. #24
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    Default Re: lattice deck guards

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Barker View Post
    How often do any of us get traffic tickets for not making an absolute stop at a stop sign or for not keeping proper distance to the cars in front of us? Sometimes being close can be good enough.
    Sorry, but I don't agree with your thinking on this. Maybe it's because my having spent a 40+ year career in the public sector, working under (and driving many hundreds of thousands of miles in) dense traffic situations, gives me a different perspective than you have. After you've witnessed a fatal collision directly in front of you, caused by someone rolling through a stop sign (like I have), or sees a woman driver's foot amputated by her collision with a guardrail after following too closely (trying to erase her screaming from the memory bank, like I have), or watched a family's car go careening over a steep embankment and roll multiple times because the driver was following too closely (like I have), possibly you'd re-think your driving habits and life philosophy just a bit.

    I still even stop, completely, at ALL stop signs. Even when nothing is in sight for miles. I'm sure you think that's foolish, and certainly not necessary.


  25. #25
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    Default Re: lattice deck guards

    .. seeing as we are disagreeing with some of the views, I am not swallowing Jerry's view wherein he said above,

    "The railing is not there to lean on or against and look at the view, it is to keep a person from falling over the edge of the raised floor surface."

    Actually in my opinion that is one of the primary purposes of a railing. People do lean against them. Sure its to stop people from falling over, thats a given.

    Back to you Jerry, ...


  26. #26
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    Default Re: lattice deck guards

    A check list for deck safety.

    http://www.nadra.org/Deck_Evaluation_Form.pdf


  27. #27
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    Default Re: lattice deck guards

    Quote Originally Posted by BridgeMan View Post
    Sorry, but I don't agree with your thinking on this.
    You may be taking my comments further than intended. When considering a condition, I think that it's worth also considering the "spirit" of the governing requirement. At what point do you point out a low railing? When it's 1/4" too low, 1 inch, 4 inches? The SoPs that govern me permit reporting based upon the opinion and conviction of the inspector and over the many years that I have been doing this job I have learned that I can rely on that more than anything else.

    Eric Barker, ACI
    Lake Barrington, IL

  28. #28
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    Default Re: lattice deck guards

    I have to agree that many are over thinking the lattice that is installed on the deck. If you do not like it or it gives you heartburn then simply report that wood lattice has been used on the deck in place of stronger solid wood balusters. If this is a concern, you might want to replace the lattice with solid wood balusters.

    Personally, it would not make my report as a problem.

    Scott Patterson, ACI
    Spring Hill, TN
    www.traceinspections.com

  29. #29
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    Default Re: lattice deck guards

    Quote Originally Posted by Raymond Wand View Post
    Actually in my opinion that is one of the primary purposes of a railing. People do lean against them.
    Yep. Does not mean that people should lean against them. Does not mean that they are there for people to lean against.

    People lean against walls ... so according to your logic ... the walls purpose is for people to lean against, not to hold the roof up or keep the weather out or ...

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  30. #30
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    Default Re: lattice deck guards

    Multi purpose Jerry, multi purposes, everything serves several functions.
    Just as walls serve several purposes.

    Now wasn't that easy!


  31. #31
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    Default Re: lattice deck guards

    Quote Originally Posted by Raymond Wand View Post
    Multi purpose Jerry, multi purposes, everything serves several functions.
    Just as walls serve several purposes.

    Now wasn't that easy!
    Nothing was said about what it 'serves' as, however, something was said about the 'intent' ... and the 'intent' is not to provide something to lean on ... walls or guards.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  32. #32
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    Default Re: lattice deck guards

    Thanks Raymond,
    For the check list. The one big thing I noticed missing was the Deck Tension Tie. Do they not require them out there? (looks like a horizontal hold down).


  33. #33
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    Default Re: lattice deck guards

    Not even going to comment on the railing issue. What I want to know is which way should the toilet paper be hung? Coming off the front or the back?


  34. #34
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    Default Re: lattice deck guards

    Front. But the toilet paper dispenser is not meant to be leaned on. Its only purpose is to dispense the paper. ha ha

    Toilet paper orientation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


  35. #35
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    Default Re: lattice deck guards

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Barker View Post
    It's my thought that you guys are over-thinking this. Makes me wonder how long some of your reports are and whether anything is left unscathed after your inspections.
    Just a week ago or so, I saw someone here say that they had a 120 page report on some inspection. I have never come close to a hundred pages on the biggest baddest building that I have ever inspected.

    Each to their own I say, but I have to wonder if a client is served if they fall asleep trying to read a report.

    But I write up single ply toilet paper as too weak for most uses.............it has to be double ply you fools.........


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