Thread: Unlabled Meter Bank

What do you say when you find a bank of meters with no labels?

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Originally Posted by William Kievit

What do you say when you find a bank of meters with no labels?

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Are you are asking about a Service Meter that does not identify the condo / unit number it is supplying ?

This appears to be a common area for the units and I would disclaim all common areas in the Inspection agreement before an Inspection.

This may be a common area but the residents should know what meter is for their unit.

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Originally Posted by William Kievit

This may be a common area but the residents should know what meter is for their unit.

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Why would this information be of value to them?

Originally Posted by Billy Stephens

Why would this information be of value to them?

I did a friend’s condo as a pre-sale and discovered for the three years he lived there he’d been paying his neighbor’s electric bill and vice versa. The bill his neighbor had been paying was about 40% lower than the one he had been paying those three years.

Originally Posted by Corn Walker

I did a friend’s condo as a pre-sale and discovered for the three years he lived there he’d been paying his neighbor’s electric bill and vice versa. The bill his neighbor had been paying was about 40% lower than the one he had been paying those three years.

Hi ya Corn,

Was the Meter Serial Number on the Utility Bill?

Was your friend reading his ( neighbors) meter for 3 years ?

How did the Utility provider switch the billing address?

How did you conclude the meters, billing information was reversed ?

Thanks,
Billy

Originally Posted by Billy Stephens

Why would this information be of value to them?

Originally Posted by Billy Stephens

Hi ya Corn,

Was the Meter Serial Number on the Utility Bill?

Was your friend reading his ( neighbors) meter for 3 years ?

How did the Utility provider switch the billing address?

How did you conclude the meters, billing information was reversed ?

Thanks,
Billy

Well Billy, If the tenant knew which meter was for their unit, they could check for billing errors. It might not take three years to figure out the KWh s appearing on their bill were not the ones on their meter. They may have been able to timely inform their utility of their error. The right of a tenant to information related to their living unit is basic.

This is what I say when I find a meter bank

"You should label meter & disconnect/shut-off for easy identification. Complete access is required to electric meters with main disconnects so the electricity may be turned off in case of emergencies or when work is being conducted."

Originally Posted by Billy Stephens

Was the Meter Serial Number on the Utility Bill?

No, but a call confirmed the mixup.

Was your friend reading his ( neighbors) meter for 3 years ?

Yes.

How did the Utility provider switch the billing address?

Don’t know, since he moved out and disclosed to the buyer that the billed meter did not match the service.

How did you conclude the meters, billing information was reversed ?

The bank of meters was located inside a common area of the condo building, with the main disconnect located outside. Main panel boards were located in each unit, with feeders between the meter and panel. Because the acoustical tiles were missing from the hallway, I happened to notice the feeder to his panel was grey sheathed while the feeder coming from “his" meter was black sheathed. To confirm my suspicion, we shut his main breaker and checked the meters. His neighbor’s meter stopped while his continued to spin. That’s when we called the utility.

As luck would have it, another friend moved into the building a year later (different unit). I poked my head in while visting and noticed all new digital smart meters in the building.

Its required by the NEC 225.37 and 230.2. If someone is in contact with an electrical line, the FD will not touch him until the power is shut off. Also, if there is smoke coming out of the breaker panel, it is necessary to be able to isolate the feeder without putting everyone out of power. The FD will not attempt to repower the other units if they are not labeled, they will require the manager to call an electrician out. If the disconnects are labeled, then the other 5 families can return to their apartments, not a shelter. A permanent plaque is required. That is an engraved plastic sign, or a stamped brass tag screwed to the disconnect.

Originally Posted by William Kievit

This may be a common area but the residents should know what meter is for their unit.
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And why would a unit owner know which meter is his? There is no need for them to go out to, or enter the locked meter room to find out which was theirs---they don't take the readings. Disagree with your comment.

Except if something looks suspicious on the bill, like away on vacation and the bill for the period did not change. Then a call to the utility.

Originally Posted by Scott Cook

Its required by the NEC ...

It is required by the NEC, yes, but by this section:
- 408.4 Circuit Directory or Circuit Identification. - - Every circuit and circuit modification shall be legibly identified as to its clear, evident, and specific purpose or use. The identification shall include sufficient detail to allow each circuit to be distinguished from all others. Spare positions that contain unused overcurrent devices or switches shall be described accordingly. The identification shall be included in a circuit directory that is located on the face or inside of the panel door in the case of a panelboard, and located at each switch on a switchboard. No circuit shall be described in a manner that depends on transient conditions of occupancy.

I see this a lot in my area. Most of the time the meter bank and main disconnects are located at the exterior of one end of the condominiums or town homes. They are not in a locked area. I recommend that the HOA or an electrician identify the service disconnects. It really doesn't take a lot of effort to ask to have the disconnects properly identified. If this was your residence wouldn't you want to know which disconnect was to your unit so it could be accessed in case of emergency or the need to turn off all power to your unit? I provide a service to my clients and part of that service is to identify the main disconnect. When you inspect a single family property do you locate and identify the main disconnect? That is my opinion and I'm sticking to it, others opinions may differ.

Originally Posted by Tom Rees

I see this a lot in my area. Most of the time the meter bank and main disconnects are located at the exterior of one end of the condominiums or town homes. They are not in a locked area. I recommend that the HOA or an electrician identify the service disconnects. It really doesn't take a lot of effort to ask to have the disconnects properly identified. If this was your residence wouldn't you want to know which disconnect was to your unit so it could be accessed in case of emergency or the need to turn off all power to your unit? I provide a service to my clients and part of that service is to identify the main disconnect. When you inspect a single family property do you locate and identify the main disconnect? That is my opinion and I'm sticking to it, others opinions may differ.

Ours are identified by house number----not hard to do.

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

It is required by the NEC, yes, but by this section:
- 408.4 Circuit Directory or Circuit Identification. - - Every circuit and circuit modification shall be legibly identified as to its clear, evident, and specific purpose or use. The identification shall include sufficient detail to allow each circuit to be distinguished from all others. Spare positions that contain unused overcurrent devices or switches shall be described accordingly. The identification shall be included in a circuit directory that is located on the face or inside of the panel door in the case of a panelboard, and located at each switch on a switchboard. No circuit shall be described in a manner that depends on transient conditions of occupancy.

Jerry,

You have the article for circuits, I was referring to service disconnects. Should have been 230.2 "(E)", I am using the 2008 NEC if it matters.

Originally Posted by Rich Goeken

Ours are identified by house number----not hard to do.

Thanks Rich. That is exactly how they should be labeled. Just permanently mark each disconnect with the unit #.

Originally Posted by Scott Cook

Jerry,

You have the article for circuits, I was referring to service disconnects. Should have been 230.2 "(E)", I am using the 2008 NEC if it matters.

Scott,

That is because they are not service disconnects.

There is a service to the building - that service is not shown in the photo. The photo shows a meter enclosure for the separate apartments or condos. The disconnects for the separate apartments or condos are not service disconnects, they only disconnect the power to each unit.

The service disconnect and service equipment are located elsewhere.

Originally Posted by Tom Rees

It really doesn't take a lot of effort to ask to have the disconnects properly identified.

If this was your residence wouldn't you want to know which disconnect was to your unit so it could be accessed in case of emergency or the need to turn off all power to your unit?

I provide a service to my clients and part of that service is to identify the main disconnect.

When you inspect a single family property do you locate and identify the main disconnect? That is my opinion and I'm sticking to it, others opinions may differ.

That's Great Tom,

If I were the Resident and wished to know I would ask.
*the best source would be the Utility Provider.

If your service includes commenting on common areas I hope your E & O carrier is behind that big can of worms.

Single Family Dwellings do not have common areas. Common Roofs, Stairwells, Parking , Shared Water,Gas,Electrical services.

Please do not feed the Troll

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

Scott,

That is because they are not service disconnects.

There is a service to the building - that service is not shown in the photo. The photo shows a meter enclosure for the separate apartments or condos. The disconnects for the separate apartments or condos are not service disconnects, they only disconnect the power to each unit.

The service disconnect and service equipment are located elsewhere.

Jerry,

I was under the impression that everything before the first overcurrent device is considered the service, including the disconnects. Are you thinking that there are no disconnects in this meter bank? Or is that definition only applied to single family residences?

Originally Posted by Scott Cook

Jerry,

I was under the impression that everything before the first overcurrent device is considered the service, including the disconnects. Are you thinking that there are no disconnects in this meter bank? Or is that definition only applied to single family residences?

Scott,

Due to the lack of information provided, each of us have had to make a set of presumptions, such as:
- number of condos in the building
- number of meter banks for the building
- where is the house panel
- where are the disconnects for the meters
- how many disconnects are behind Door #1 and Door #2
- the interior configuration of the meter can as that could be limited to six meter and six disconnects, with one meter and one disconnect being for the house panel, or, does the configuration allow for more than six disconnects (the number of meter does not determine the number of service disconnects)

Based on what I presumed, that there is a house panel at another location, which also would mean that there is a service at another location, and that said service is feeding this meter bank along with other meter banks, the location with the service disconnect is the one and only service which is permitted to this structure.

Based on those presumptions, this meter bank is not the service equipment. With this meter bank not being the service equipment, code references applicable to services (i.e. NEC 230) would not be applicable. The presumptions I made would also not make these not outside branch circuits, code references to outside branch circuits (i.e., NEC 225) would not be applicable either.

Based on those same presumptions, these would be mete/panelboards which are not service equipment, thus NEC 408 Switchboards and Panelboards would be the applicable code Article.

Now, the original poster could fill in the missing information and confirm, or shoot down, my presumptions, and, could confirm or shoot down the presumptions you made to address that as service equipment.

Thus, in retrospect, the very first post in response to the original post should not have contained any answers based on any presumptions - instead, the very first post in response to the original post should have contained nothing except for questions for clarification to establish just what it is that we are looking at.

Instead, all of us, myself included, made presumptions on what we think the photo represents and provided answers based on those presumptions.

So, to William, please provide as much information as you can to clarify what the photo represents:
- number of condos in the building
- number of meter banks for the building
- where is the house panel
- where are the disconnects for the meters
- how many disconnects are behind Door #1 and Door #2
- the interior configuration of the meter - does it limit the maximum number of disconnect to six disconnects

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

Scott,

Due to the lack of information provided, each of us have had to make a set of presumptions, ......Instead, all of us, myself included, made presumptions on what we think the photo represents and provided answers based on those presumptions.

Jerry,

That sounds reasonable to me. Thanks for the explanation. Labeling the meters may not be specifically required, although labeling the disconnects (if they were there) is. Even if its not required, it would be beneficial to have it labeled.

Scott


Does anyone else have to type really slow to keep from skipping letters, or is it just me?

Originally Posted by Scott Cook

Does anyone else have to type really slow to keep from skipping letters, or is it just me?

It's the keyboard. My keyboard kept spelling things wrong. A new keyboard fixed the problem!

Originally Posted by Rich Goeken

It's the keyboard. My keyboard kept spelling things wrong. A new keyboard fixed the problem!

That explains it, mines been spelling things wrong for years.

Originally Posted by Rich Goeken

It's the keyboard. My keyboard kept spelling things wrong. A new keyboard fixed the problem!

The letters wear off my keyboards leaving the keys blank ... if I type something wrong I can then blame it on the keyboard because it has unidentified keys.

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

Scott,

Due to the lack of information provided, each of us have had to make a set of presumptions, such as:
- number of condos in the building
- number of meter banks for the building
- where is the house panel
- where are the disconnects for the meters
- how many disconnects are behind Door #1 and Door #2
- the interior configuration of the meter can as that could be limited to six meter and six disconnects, with one meter and one disconnect being for the house panel, or, does the configuration allow for more than six disconnects (the number of meter does not determine the number of service disconnects)

Based on what I presumed, that there is a house panel at another location, which also would mean that there is a service at another location, and that said service is feeding this meter bank along with other meter banks, the location with the service disconnect is the one and only service which is permitted to this structure.

Based on those presumptions, this meter bank is not the service equipment. With this meter bank not being the service equipment, code references applicable to services (i.e. NEC 230) would not be applicable. The presumptions I made would also not make these not outside branch circuits, code references to outside branch circuits (i.e., NEC 225) would not be applicable either.

Based on those same presumptions, these would be mete/panelboards which are not service equipment, thus NEC 408 Switchboards and Panelboards would be the applicable code Article.

Now, the original poster could fill in the missing information and confirm, or shoot down, my presumptions, and, could confirm or shoot down the presumptions you made to address that as service equipment.

Thus, in retrospect, the very first post in response to the original post should not have contained any answers based on any presumptions - instead, the very first post in response to the original post should have contained nothing except for questions for clarification to establish just what it is that we are looking at.

Instead, all of us, myself included, made presumptions on what we think the photo represents and provided answers based on those presumptions.

So, to William, please provide as much information as you can to clarify what the photo represents:
- number of condos in the building
- number of meter banks for the building
- where is the house panel
- where are the disconnects for the meters
- how many disconnects are behind Door #1 and Door #2
- the interior configuration of the meter - does it limit the maximum number of disconnect to six disconnects

Here is the info:
4 Unit Condo
One meter bank
Each unit has a Remote Panel inside the unit.
The disconnects are behind the panels located below the meters. Three in each.
The fifth meter is for external security lighting (HOA meter).

Originally Posted by William Kievit

Here is the info:
4 Unit Condo
One meter bank
Each unit has a Remote Panel inside the unit.
The disconnects are behind the panels located below the meters. Three in each.
The fifth meter is for external security lighting (HOA meter).

With that information - that meter bank and those disconnects are service equipment and would fall under Article 230 references.

When on the bridge and the Troll rears its head and growls, one needs to stay on the bridge as it is higher ground ... if one goes down under the bridge to engage the Troll ... from above it could look like two Trolls arguing - I'll stay up on the bridge and higher ground and let the Troll rear its head a growl.

It is my recollection that the term Troll was first introduced here recently by the poster below.

Anyone else have such a recollection?

Then, hopefully, we can get back on topic and stay on topic.

So now there is a redirect and misdirect to change from one subject to another because the Troll realized he had yet again given incorrect information.

Where is Earnest when one needs him?

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

Where is Earnest when one needs him?

Ernest Scared Stupid - YouTube

Why does this site engender so many pissing matches? Don't we all have better things to do? Never mind, I guess that question answers itself.

Would never look blank like in the OP pic if I finaled that job (pet peve!!)
It also irritates me as a E contractor when I need to pull the meter or do work! grrr