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  1. #1
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    Default unique garage door- safe?

    I inspected a 1960's home today, very well maintained (I don't say that very often). Unfortunately it also had lots of original stuff, eg furnace, ac, dishwasher, and overhead garage door. The overhead door torsion springs are on the ceiling near the opener, not on the front wall over the door. This looks funny, but I can't think of a reason it's unsafe. I have found many broken torsion springs, but I've never seen one come off the shaft. Bigger concern to me is the cables. The pulleys are 12 inches from the top of the door, so the cables angle up into the garage. I called this out as a safety concern- both to children and something catching on the cable when the door is opening. Anyone see a spring/cable installation like this before? And/or have a source for them being unsafe? Also, the beam modules are on blocks instead of the tracks, so they are not directly under the door. I consider this unsafe too, so I recommended an overhead door contractor check the entire installation. But I still want to know about the springs/cables if anyone has any info.

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  2. #2
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    Default Re: unique garage door- safe?

    The door installation involved altering its original design.
    There is not enough ceiling height for the torsion spring so they moved it back.
    They added pulleys to carry the cable.
    The pulleys may have been moved to their location due to binding during operation.
    The door may have come with extension springs and were changed out due to lack of room.

    The beam controller is wrong. Too high and too far back from door bottom edge line.
    The cables also pose a safety issue.

    Bottom line its is wrong as far as manufacture's design and installation. It is not safe by any standard. Though it may work and get the job done. The door is to tall for the opening and there may have been a reason for its height. Normally it would have required a header build down and special ordering out different panel sections size for installation to create room for spring and different tracks.

    Maybe Larry The Cable Guy did the installation....Saying " I'll get er done."

    Last edited by Garry Sorrells; 10-23-2014 at 04:11 AM.

  3. #3
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    Default Re: unique garage door- safe?

    Quote Originally Posted by Randy West View Post
    I inspected a 1960's home today, very well maintained (I don't say that very often). Unfortunately it also had lots of original stuff, eg furnace, ac, dishwasher, and overhead garage door. The overhead door torsion springs are on the ceiling near the opener, not on the front wall over the door. This looks funny, but I can't think of a reason it's unsafe. I have found many broken torsion springs, but I've never seen one come off the shaft. Bigger concern to me is the cables. The pulleys are 12 inches from the top of the door, so the cables angle up into the garage. I called this out as a safety concern- both to children and something catching on the cable when the door is opening. Anyone see a spring/cable installation like this before? And/or have a source for them being unsafe? Also, the beam modules are on blocks instead of the tracks, so they are not directly under the door. I consider this unsafe too, so I recommended an overhead door contractor check the entire installation. But I still want to know about the springs/cables if anyone has any info.
    This is how it had to be done because of the low headroom and side clearance. They just didn't jury rig it....the manufacturers design these systems so that the torsion bar can be mounted in the back for low headroom applications. Maybe the system could be improved? Probably not if they want a garage door opener. Is it safe? There is no such thing as absolute protection and safety. By their nature garage doors have a certain amount of inherit danger. Caution is advised.


  4. #4
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    Default Re: unique garage door- safe?

    I agree with Garry
    Just report what you see. No need to write a book.
    BTW That garage door is not original to the house. Much newer.

    ' correct a wise man and you gain a friend... correct a fool and he'll bloody your nose'.

  5. #5
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    Default Re: unique garage door- safe?

    That is wild, out of my 20 years at this gig I have never seen a torsion bar in that location.

    Scott Patterson, ACI
    Spring Hill, TN
    www.traceinspections.com

  6. #6
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    Default Re: unique garage door- safe?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Thornburg View Post
    This is how it had to be done because of the low headroom and side clearance. They just didn't jury rig it....the manufacturers design these systems so that the torsion bar can be mounted in the back for low headroom applications. Maybe the system could be improved? Probably not if they want a garage door opener. Is it safe? There is no such thing as absolute protection and safety. By their nature garage doors have a certain amount of inherit danger. Caution is advised.

    OK, I'll bite..

    Can you provide anything from a manufacture that would accept this (OP) installation method???

    Can you provide a manufacture's notification/instructions that approves the relocation of the torsion bar assembly.

    It is not about the ability to alter or redesign the installation, but to set liability for the installation method.

    Last edited by Garry Sorrells; 10-23-2014 at 07:21 AM.

  7. #7
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    Default Re: unique garage door- safe?

    There are a couple out there, saw this at the handy dandy Menards.

    http://www.menards.com/main/doors-wi.../p-1312983.htm

    PDF directions from Ideal:

    http://www.idealdoorgaragedoors.com/...pplemental.pdf


  8. #8
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    Default Re: unique garage door- safe?

    Seen that setup many times where carports are converted to garages. Nearly all doors and openers have numerous reasons for immediate professional repairs (optical sensors too high, no reverse when closing against a 2-inch obstruction upon the floor, missing handles, spring tension does not hold door open when operating manually, etc.), that they all need attention by specialists anyhow.


  9. #9
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    Default Re: unique garage door- safe?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Kleisch View Post
    There are a couple out there, saw this at the handy dandy Menards.

    http://www.menards.com/main/doors-wi.../p-1312983.htm

    PDF directions from Ideal:

    http://www.idealdoorgaragedoors.com/...pplemental.pdf

    Thank you all. As noted, the door itself is newer, but the springs/tracks looked older to me. Thank you Mike for the source above. Page 4 'rear mount torsion springs' was exactly what I was looking for. It looked strange because I'd not seen it before, but 'professional', so to speak.

    I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work. (Thomas Edison)

  10. #10
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    Default Re: unique garage door- safe?

    Thanks Mike,
    Wanted reference spects posted. Looked at it on a small screen originally. Torsion bar appeared to be not at end but in last 1/3 or track. Bigger screen makes it look different. It does appear to be correctly on end of track.


  11. #11
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    Default Re: unique garage door- safe?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Wood View Post
    That garage door is not installed correctly and is dangerous. It needs corrected ASAP.
    I would not say its wrong, unless I knew that for sure, based on the mfgs instructions that I am sure weren't available. I would write it up as "most likely wrong" and an "odd instillation" whereas the cables could create a hazard. Further evaluations would be needed by a qualified door contractor.e safety eyes, are for sure wrong.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Wood View Post
    That garage door is not installed correctly and is dangerous. It needs corrected ASAP.
    I would not say its wrong, unless I knew that for sure, based on the mfgs instructions that I am sure weren't available. I would write it up as "most likely wrong" and an "odd instillation" whereas the cables could create a hazard. Further evaluations would be needed by a qualified door contractor.e safety eyes, are for sure wrong.


  12. #12
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    Default Re: unique garage door- safe?

    Quote Originally Posted by Garry Sorrells View Post
    The door installation involved altering its original design.
    There is not enough ceiling height for the torsion spring so they moved it back.
    They added pulleys to carry the cable.
    The pulleys may have been moved to their location due to binding during operation.
    The door may have come with extension springs and were changed out due to lack of room.

    The beam controller is wrong. Too high and too far back from door bottom edge line.
    The cables also pose a safety issue.

    Bottom line its is wrong as far as manufacture's design and installation. It is not safe by any standard. Though it may work and get the job done. The door is to tall for the opening and there may have been a reason for its height. Normally it would have required a header build down and special ordering out different panel sections size for installation to create room for spring and different tracks.

    Maybe Larry The Cable Guy did the installation....Saying " I'll get er done."
    Quote Originally Posted by Garry Sorrells View Post
    Thanks Mike,
    Wanted reference spects posted. Looked at it on a small screen originally. Torsion bar appeared to be not at end but in last 1/3 or track. Bigger screen makes it look different. It does appear to be correctly on end of track.
    Rick S,
    There are some things obviously wrong and other things that may be wrong.

    -Rear mounted torsion spring is an acceptable installation, if done correctly. From picture I do have some reservations on the spring installation. Would need more pictures.
    -Angle of cable to bottom of door is close to manufacture instructions yet I do not like it for several reasons and there is a way to modify it, but it does not follow manufacture instal instructions.
    -Beam controller is wrong location.

    Knowing what is right and what is wrong is what it is all about. Sometimes it is something like the "Where is Waldo" game to find what is wrong. Most door manufactures installation are about the same. Most installation options are also fairly typical even if not commonly used. Here is a link to a Clopay page:

    Garage Doors, Residential Garage Doors - Clopay

    Make some time to go through all of the manuals on installation and look closely to the specifics of the installation methods and different types of methods employed . Installing the doors is the best method to learn, but that is not very common opportunity or experience for HI backgrounds. If you have ever rebuilt an engine you know "the devil is in the details" to reassemble correctly, like replacing the camshaft bearing bolts rather than reusing the old ones.



    In general I do not understand why a Low Headroom Kit- Quick Turn Brackets and Double Track System was not used. Would need to see site to attempt to understand existing installation.

    The rear mounted torsion bar is not very common ( kinda rare installation). Yet they are out there. Odd and atypical does not make it wrong but you have to recognize what you are looking at. My personal opinion is that the cables are a hazard, though close to correct per manufacture, and I would modify if it were my door.


    Kevin,
    An atypical installation deserves an explanation to the client. Especially when you point out a potential hazard. Giving the client the opprotunity to understand what may have gone into an installation gives them some insight into the house they are considering makeing a home. Much better than just saying "HAZARD, have evaluated".


  13. #13
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    Default Re: unique garage door- safe?

    There is nothing wrong with the installation of the garage door. I don't see any modifications. There is no room to install the torsion springs above the door so the decision to install double track low headroom hardware was correct. This type of installation requires the use of low headroom corner brackets, sheaves, longer cables, and mounting the springs as shown in the pictures. The first picture shows the location of the vertical portion of the cable when the door is closed. The corner bracket used on this door brings the cable to the outside of the track unlike more common corner brackets which keep the cable between the door and track. The sheave is mounted to the track in a location inward from the door so the cable can open the door all the way. This is normal installation when using low headroom corner brackets in conjunction with sheaves. This arrangement will result in the vertical part of the cable to run on an angle inward from the door. Using a single track with quick turn brackets would not have changed this. The torsion spring is mounted at the end of the horizontal track with its corresponding bearings and cable drums. In this case the spring anchor is mounted to the ceiling. There aren't any universal mounting methods to mount the spring anchor to the ceiling so it's left up to the installer to devise a way. The garage door opener reversing beams appear to be higher than six inches but the placement away from the door may be the minimum distance so the low headroom corner bracket doesn't break the beam when the door is closing. Opening wouldn't matter. Its difficult to tell from the picture. With that said, notation should be made of the exposed cable and the additional hazard to children.

    Last edited by Mike Borchardt; 10-30-2014 at 08:52 PM.

  14. #14
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    Default Re: unique garage door- safe?

    This is what I have been pondering while reading these posts, no one has mentioned this (at least not that I recall): The garage doors are typically the largest moving part in a dwelling, and so many injuries and deaths have resulted from faulty garage doors to require all kinds of safety measures.

    Now we have a company which makes tracks and rear torsion spring mounts as adapters for other manufacturers door (at least as I understand it), so here is the problem I see - when someone gets injured, the door manufacturer says "WHOA Big Fella! WE did not alter that door, those tracks are NOT OUR tracks, and had OUR tracks been used there would not be any injury or death. As such you need to not look to us for this problem, you need to look to the manufacturer which made those tracks ... OUR LISTING and testing is done with OUR tracks, not with anyone else's tracks."

    The manufacturer of the tracks says: "Wait a friggin' minute here, guys. WE did not manufacturer the door, and it was the door which fell, not the tracks."

    The problem is that the door fell from the tracks ...

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
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  15. #15
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    Default Re: unique garage door- safe?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    This is what I have been pondering while reading these posts, no one has mentioned this (at least not that I recall): The garage doors are typically the largest moving part in a dwelling, and so many injuries and deaths have resulted from faulty garage doors to require all kinds of safety measures.

    Now we have a company which makes tracks and rear torsion spring mounts as adapters for other manufacturers door (at least as I understand it), so here is the problem I see - when someone gets injured, the door manufacturer says "WHOA Big Fella! WE did not alter that door, those tracks are NOT OUR tracks, and had OUR tracks been used there would not be any injury or death. As such you need to not look to us for this problem, you need to look to the manufacturer which made those tracks ... OUR LISTING and testing is done with OUR tracks, not with anyone else's tracks."

    The manufacturer of the tracks says: "Wait a friggin' minute here, guys. WE did not manufacturer the door, and it was the door which fell, not the tracks."

    The problem is that the door fell from the tracks ...
    Hi Jerry
    You make for a good argument if a new door was installed using existing tracks and/or hardware.
    It looks like everything's new and would have been supplied by the same mfg. But like all things made, garage door parts are farmed out to other manufactures under a license agreement along with specs. GM didn't make the faulty air bags or ignition switches but the liability stills fall on them. In Wisconsin, the springs have a red tag warning not to touch, springs under tension, bodily injury. I don't see any tag on those springs. Also, I would like a closer look at the arm that connects the opener to the door.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    This is what I have been pondering while reading these posts, no one has mentioned this (at least not that I recall): The garage doors are typically the largest moving part in a dwelling, and so many injuries and deaths have resulted from faulty garage doors to require all kinds of safety measures.

    Now we have a company which makes tracks and rear torsion spring mounts as adapters for other manufacturers door (at least as I understand it), so here is the problem I see - when someone gets injured, the door manufacturer says "WHOA Big Fella! WE did not alter that door, those tracks are NOT OUR tracks, and had OUR tracks been used there would not be any injury or death. As such you need to not look to us for this problem, you need to look to the manufacturer which made those tracks ... OUR LISTING and testing is done with OUR tracks, not with anyone else's tracks."

    The manufacturer of the tracks says: "Wait a friggin' minute here, guys. WE did not manufacturer the door, and it was the door which fell, not the tracks."

    The problem is that the door fell from the tracks ...
    Hi Jerry
    You make for a good argument if a new door was installed using existing tracks and/or hardware.
    It looks like everything's new and would have been supplied by the same mfg. But like all things made, garage door parts are farmed out to other manufactures under a license agreement along with specs. GM didn't make the faulty air bags or ignition switches but the liability stills fall on them. In Wisconsin, the springs have a red tag warning not to touch, springs under tension, bodily injury. I don't see any tag on those springs. Also, I would like a closer look at the arm that connects the opener to the door.


  16. #16
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    Default Re: unique garage door- safe?

    Quote Originally Posted by Garry Sorrells View Post
    The door installation involved altering its original design.
    There is not enough ceiling height for the torsion spring so they moved it back.
    They added pulleys to carry the cable.
    The pulleys may have been moved to their location due to binding during operation.
    The door may have come with extension springs and were changed out due to lack of room.

    The beam controller is wrong. Too high and too far back from door bottom edge line.
    The cables also pose a safety issue.

    Bottom line its is wrong as far as manufacture's design and installation. It is not safe by any standard. Though it may work and get the job done. The door is to tall for the opening and there may have been a reason for its height. Normally it would have required a header build down and special ordering out different panel sections size for installation to create room for spring and different tracks.

    Maybe Larry The Cable Guy did the installation....Saying " I'll get er done."
    Gary:
    With all due respect, before you post a reply I would strongly suggest you educate yourself on the different types of door installations. Standard lift, high lift, vertical lift, low head room, roll up, single track, double track, torsion spring, extension, and rear mount. Many people read these posts, don't embarrass us. Were supposed to know. This is a standard double track, low head room, rear mount spring system. Professional installation.


  17. #17
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    Default Re: unique garage door- safe?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Borchardt View Post
    Gary:
    With all due respect, before you post a reply I would strongly suggest you educate yourself on the different types of door installations. Standard lift, high lift, vertical lift, low head room, roll up, single track, double track, torsion spring, extension, and rear mount. Many people read these posts, don't embarrass us. Were supposed to know. This is a standard double track, low head room, rear mount spring system. Professional installation.
    Mike,
    I will eat crow on this one. I was wrong...
    I had a real problem getting the resolution on the OP pict. to see what was going on. I have finally gotten to where I can see pict better.

    Many time we look but don't see. What we think we see is not what is there.

    Last edited by Garry Sorrells; 10-31-2014 at 05:09 AM.

  18. #18
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    Default Re: unique garage door- safe?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Borchardt View Post
    Hi Jerry
    You make for a good argument if a new door was installed using existing tracks and/or hardware.
    It looks like everything's new and would have been supplied by the same mfg. But like all things made, garage door parts are farmed out to other manufactures under a license agreement along with specs. GM didn't make the faulty air bags or ignition switches but the liability stills fall on them. In Wisconsin, the springs have a red tag warning not to touch, springs under tension, bodily injury. I don't see any tag on those springs. Also, I would like a closer look at the arm that connects the opener to the door.
    Mike,

    You make a good argument if ... if those tracks came from the door manufacturer like faulty air bags and faulty ignition switches did.

    However, I suspect that those tracks are not from the door manufacturer and not provided with the door - and that changes everything.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  19. #19
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    Default Re: unique garage door- safe?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Wood View Post
    I am not convinced that this is a Professional install. The use of a short angle puts tremendous torque on the front portion to pull away from the ceiling. Expanding it over a further positioning would have been the better choice. As for the eye it does appear that it is higher than the required 6 inches but the angle is hard to tell if indeed it is correct. The cables to me are a problem but this is what it is, so my comment would be to use caution with children around opening and not necessarily would that be in the report but just a verbal comment would be enough.
    At a closer look it appears they did put an angle however reversed so I take that back about the bracket install.
    Hi Kevin
    There's a couple of things that shows me this was installed by a door company. Looking at the type of angle iron used in the installation of the spring anchor is a type commonly used in the door industry and not commonly found in hardware stores. Hardware stores sell punched angle iron with round and slotted hole combination. At least that's all I can find in my area. The angle iron used in the third picture has round 5/16 round holes only. I'm very familiar with this type as I was a garage door installer for seven years. The way it's mounted to the ceiling is ok because although it holds the springs and spring shaft up and straight - which may only be a couple of pounds - it's primary purpose is to prevent the spring anchor from rotating under tension. The spring anchor its self is about 5 inches wide, but bolting it to angle iron 16 inches long assuming the ceiling joists are 16 inch on center, only strengthens the apposing force and can be stronger than using lag bolts to secure the spring anchor to the header above a door. Bolting the spring anchor to a piece of angle iron to widen the mounting surface will increase the strength provide heavy enough materials are used. Back when I installed doors, we had two different gauge angle irons. The lighter iron was fine for hanging the horizontal tracks and garage door openers but was not suitable to withstand the pull of extension springs. I prefer to use the heaver gauge for all applications. Regardless of the gauge, the angle iron is 1" x 1" with 5/16 round holes spaced 1" apart. The other reason I don't think this was a home owner installation is because it's a more difficult installation. When installing a common door where the springs are above the door, you stack the door sections while installing the vertical tracks. Once the sections are stacked and the vertical track is installed, the spacing between the tracks is set and the spring shaft, bearings, and cable drums can be put in place. The horizontal tracks can be installed but not secured with the hangers yet. After the spring tension is applied, the door can be opened nearly half way. Doing this allows you to align the horizontal tracks with the door and secured them with hangers. When doing a rear mount spring system, the horizontal tracks must be in the proper position when installing the spring system. Once the cable drums are attached, the spacing between the tracks cannot be changed. It's a trickier installation. Measuring the track distance off a common wall can get you close if the wall is true to being perpendicular to the door opening but that's not always the case especially in older buildings. Or if the door is just slightly out of level when closed, the door will want to track differently in the horizontal position and will bind against either track. It's just not an easy job for the average person. I remember when I first started installing doors. It took a good year to become efficient while learning what to watch for, understand certain problems, and how to correct them. Some things to look for when inspecting a door that will be a dead give away that the job was done by an amateur is as follows. The torsion springs are installed backwards. Yes, backwards. On each end of the springs are cones. On one end is a stationary cone connected to the spring anchor. The other end is the winding cone. When the door is closed, the diameter of the spring will be smaller then the ends of the spring where the cones are. When you wind springs, the diameter will decrease and the spring will get longer. If the springs are installed backwards, the diameter will increase to the same size or larger than the cones. Look at the hinges where the rollers are. At the very bottom of the door are the corner brackets where the cables connect. the first hinge up is a number 1 hinge and only one place for the roller to be inserted. The next hinge up is a number 2 hinge. Here you can insert the roller in two places. The roller should be in the hole furthest from the door. Like wise with the next hinge number 3. Roller should be inserted furthest from the door. The top roller bracket should be installed with the roller on the top of the bracket. I have seen all rollers in the holes closest to the door which is wrong. All hinges are numbered and the number should be on the bottom of the hinge. If the number is up side down that's ok as long as it's on the lower part of the hinge. The entire spring system is backwards. On a standard door, the most common type door, the cables should wind up on the cable drums from the back side, along the wall. If they wind up on the front, the spring system is backwards. The horizontal tracks are secured with 2x4 or something other than angle iron. Door companies don't do this. Missing sway braces on the horizontal track hangers. These are all things I have run across. I don't mind sharing my experience with any one interested. I hope this helps in your inspections as I'm sure your quite qualified but you can never be over educated. With due respect. Thanks.


  20. #20
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    Default Re: unique garage door- safe?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Mike,

    You make a good argument if ... if those tracks came from the door manufacturer like faulty air bags and faulty ignition switches did.

    However, I suspect that those tracks are not from the door manufacturer and not provided with the door - and that changes everything.
    Hi Jerry
    Could you elaborate why you think the tracks were not from the door manufacturer. Apparently I'm not seeing something you see. Thanks


  21. #21
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    Default Re: unique garage door- safe?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Borchardt View Post
    Hi Jerry
    Could you elaborate why you think the tracks were not from the door manufacturer. Apparently I'm not seeing something you see. Thanks
    See Kevin's post #21 with the link he provided and how they address low clearance.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

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    Default Re: unique garage door- safe?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    See Kevin's post #21 with the link he provided and how they address low clearance.
    Jerry,
    There are different ways to address low to no headroom clearance. Post #21 is a Quick Turn Bracket. The OP is a double track system.

    Here are some links to look over.
    Clopay Installation Manual - Pages 23 - 24 - 25
    Garage Doors, Residential Garage Doors - Clopay

    Low Headroom Double Track Installation Clopay - Pages 4 - 5
    http://www.clopaydoor.com/publicfile...sion%20kit.pdf

    Low Headroom Options - Quick Turn Bracket -Clopay
    http://www.clopaydoor.com/publicfile...om-Options.pdf

    This is an example of what the OP pict would look like up close. Using the Double Track system.

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    Last edited by Garry Sorrells; 11-01-2014 at 06:18 PM. Reason: added page references

  23. #23
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    Default Re: unique garage door- safe?

    Quote Originally Posted by Garry Sorrells View Post
    Jerry,
    There are different ways to address low to no headroom clearance. Post #21 is a Quick Turn Bracket. The OP is a double track system.

    Here are some links to look over.
    Clopay Installation Manual
    Garage Doors, Residential Garage Doors - Clopay


    Low Headroom Double Track Installation Clopay
    http://www.clopaydoor.com/publicfile...sion%20kit.pdf







    Low Headroom Options - Quick Turn Bracket -Clopay

    http://www.clopaydoor.com/publicfile...om-Options.pdf
    Precisely what I referred to.

    Those are *not* from the manufacturer.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  24. #24
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    Default Re: unique garage door- safe?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Precisely what I referred to.

    Those are *not* from the manufacturer.
    I am sorry I do not understand exactly what you are referring to.
    Granted We do not know who the door nor the hardware manufacture are or are not. So I posted links from one manufacture for consistency.


  25. #25
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    Default Re: unique garage door- safe?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Precisely what I referred to.

    Those are *not* from the manufacturer.
    These are manufactured by the door manufacturer. How do I know this? I INSTALLED THE DOOR.

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    Default Re: unique garage door- safe?

    Quote Originally Posted by Garry Sorrells View Post
    Granted We do not know who the door nor the hardware manufacture are or are not. So I posted links from one manufacture for consistency.
    For Mike - the above and the link to that manufacturer is what my post was referring to.

    your photo shows the spring and controller mounted on the wall above the door, unlike the original post's photo which shows it mounted back at the end of the track.

    Who was the manufacturer of the door you installed?

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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    Default Re: unique garage door- safe?

    As mentioned in my earlier post on this thread, this is a common installation for carports lacking sufficient headroom…I’ve been on-site during a professional install of this exact type of set-up. A quick internet search for ‘low headroom’ door operators confirms this is an option offered by a number of companies and equipment manufactures. I'm surprised to read even a few definitive "its wrong' comments when so much info is out there.

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    Default Re: unique garage door- safe?

    Quote Originally Posted by Marc Morin View Post
    As mentioned in my earlier post on this thread, this is a common installation for carports lacking sufficient headroom…I’ve been on-site during a professional install of this exact type of set-up. A quick internet search for ‘low headroom’ door operators confirms this is an option offered by a number of companies and equipment manufactures. I'm surprised to read even a few definitive "its wrong' comments when so much info is out there.

    Marc, Your are right.
    I started the problem with the thread in my first posting, which was the result of a small screen and poor resolution. It originally appeared to me that the Torsion Spring was mounted some where other than on the end of the track. Then the way I worded the rest of the post caused more issues, taking others in the wrong direction.


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    Default Re: unique garage door- safe?

    Thank you Mike and Marc
    This is why we read this forum.
    To gain knowledge from other peoples experience.
    If everyone had the same experience, there would be nothing to learn, and therefore no need to read the post.

    ' correct a wise man and you gain a friend... correct a fool and he'll bloody your nose'.

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    Default Re: unique garage door- safe?

    Jerry,
    I think that Mike's picture was to demonstrate the track and not the spring or operator.


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    Default Re: unique garage door- safe?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Borchardt View Post
    These are manufactured by the door manufacturer. How do I know this? I INSTALLED THE DOOR.
    Quote Originally Posted by Garry Sorrells View Post
    Jerry,
    I think that Mike's picture was to demonstrate the track and not the spring or operator.
    Gary,

    I thought Mike's picture and post was to state that, in his case, the low overhead clearance came from the door manufacturer ... but I could be wrong ... ... although that was what he stated.

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    Default Re: unique garage door- safe?

    Jerry,
    Still a little confused about your posts.

    The pict from Mike as the one I posted show the typical Low Headroom Double Track that is supplied by the manufacture of the door. The standard off the rack from the Big Box store will have only a single track installation and that is what is supplied with the door. All manufactures include their tracks with their doors and want them to be used. In the event you need the low headroom tracks you spec it out and order them from the manufacture.

    Some more examples of Low Headroom Tracks and Torsion Spring installations.

    Rear mounted Torsion Spring – You Tube video --- Look at the track and spring used- not the opener -- Example of low headroom Torsion Sprig installation.
    This 16'X7' Clopay is on 3" headroom hardware with rear mounted torsion
    Genie IS series on Rear-Torsion Clopay -TheGarageDoorGeek - YouTube

    Metal Building Depot – Rear Torsion Spring

    Metal Building Depot.Com - Garage Door Basics

    Northwest Door – Rear Torsion Spring install p. 8,9,10
    http://www.northwestdoor.com/assets/...structions.pdf

    Ideal garage Door – Rear Torsion Spring installation instructions p.4
    http://www.idealdoorgaragedoors.com/...pplemental.pdf

    GARAGA Doors – Canada –installation p. 19- 20
    http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...78677474,d.cWc

    Another optional method to deal with Low Headroom – the Quick Turn Bracket :
    YouTube – Rear Torsion Spring with Quick Turn Bracket
    Garage door with less than zero headroom, track is 5 inches below opening - YouTube

    Last edited by Garry Sorrells; 11-08-2014 at 08:53 AM. Reason: Added some clarity I hope

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    Default Re: unique garage door- safe?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Wood View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Borchardt View Post
    Hi Jerry
    Could you elaborate why you think the tracks were not from the door manufacturer. Apparently I'm not seeing something you see. Thanks
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    See Kevin's post #21 with the link he provided and how they address low clearance.
    Quote Originally Posted by Garry Sorrells View Post
    Jerry,
    Still a little confused about your posts.
    The link Kevin posted for clopaydoor.com shows that low headroom options are available from the installer - no Clopay part numbers given. That indicates that the installer can provide the necessary parts for low headroom installations - no part numbers for tracks from them, just that the installer can provide the necessary parts from another source, no recommendation for that other source either - get those parts from wherever the installer gets them.

    I will look at the recent links provided when I get back to my computer shortly.

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    Default Re: unique garage door- safe?

    Quote Originally Posted by Garry Sorrells View Post
    Some more examples of Low Headroom Tracks and Torsion Spring installations.

    Rear mounted Torsion Spring – You Tube video
    This 16'X7' Clopay is on 3" headroom hardware with rear mounted torsion
    Genie IS series on Rear-Torsion Clopay -TheGarageDoorGeek - YouTube
    That is about the Genie garage door operator, the door is a Clopay door, see previous post regarding Clopay.

    Metal Building Depot – Rear Torsion Spring

    Metal Building Depot.Com - Garage Door Basics
    That one shows about Garage Door Basics and Basic Terms, but it does not address any specific door manufacturer and the tracks which THEY provide.

    Northwest Door – Rear Torsion Spring install p. 8,9,10
    http://www.northwestdoor.com/assets/...structions.pdf
    That one is of a door manufacturer (Northwest Door) which does specify its own low headroom tracks. That one is a keeper (first "keeper" so far ).

    Ideal garage Door – Rear Torsion Spring installation instructions p.4
    http://www.idealdoorgaragedoors.com/...pplemental.pdf
    Nothing on those instructions stated they were of/from/for Ideal Garage Doors, however, when I went to their website I found those instructions, so that one is also a "keeper" - at least they can be tied together from their website.

    GARAGA Doors – Canada –installation p. 19- 20
    http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...78677474,d.cWc
    Another "keeper" as the manufacturer specifies and includes the low headroom tracks in their installation manual.

    Another optional method to deal with Low Headroom – the Quick Turn Bracket :
    YouTube – Rear Torsion Spring with Quick Turn Bracket
    Garage door with less than zero headroom, track is 5 inches below opening - YouTube
    That last one almost a "keeper" too because it does not require anything special (except the top hinges), except that the video does not say where those hinges came from - the door manufacturer or someplace else. This one is interesting as it does not require the fancy stuff like double tracks, etc.

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    Default Re: unique garage door- safe?

    Jerry,
    Aaaaaaaaaa Sooooooooo. I think I have it know.

    You want to see a part number from a manufacture of a door for the different tracks that they provide with their doors. You think that there is some kind of generic tracking that is used when you go to a Low Headroom Track.... NO... Can you mix and match hardware from different sources? Yes, if it will work correctly. It would be about meeting the specifications to match. Though mixing and matching is not done typically. Also it would go against manufacture position to use their hardware only.

    Some door manufactures sell to the public and some only sell through dealers. Clopay is a dealer distributor system. Clopay does not have a factory direct retail outlet, at least not that I know of. But you can buy Clopay through Home Depot either online or instore. Some door installation companies will sell to DYIs others will not.

    If you are a Clopay dealer you would order/stock their low headroom tracks to be use as needed just like their doors. If you wanted to install as DYI you can order through Home Depot and as part of that order order the low headroom track. Here is an example link:

    Clopay Garage Door Low Headroom Conversion Kit-4125477 at The Home Depot

    Check out page 5. Tells you to order.
    http://www.homedepot.com/catalog/pdf...a0a572d2ca.pdf


    The other links were there to show what we are talking about to others and to demonstrate that manufactures have Low Headroom kits that they supply. Yes you can get and use or mix and match parts from one manufacture to another if it will work. Most manufactures will say to only use their materials/hardware on their doors.

    This YouTube was about the Track and Torsion Spring and NOT the Genie opener. A demonstration of an application/installation.
    Rear mounted Torsion Spring – You Tube video
    This 16'X7' Clopay is on 3" headroom hardware with rear mounted torsion
    Genie IS series on Rear-Torsion Clopay -TheGarageDoorGeek - YouTube It is not about the Genie opener but the Rear Mounted Torsion Spring application and track.


    I do not know of any door manufacture that does not have Low Headroom Tracks available nor not listed in their installation manuals some where. Some times the Low Headroom track installation instructions are separate from the standard installation manual.

    Last edited by Garry Sorrells; 11-06-2014 at 11:23 AM.

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    Default Re: unique garage door- safe?

    Garry,

    Definitely better than the other instruction sheet which simply referred it off to the installer - looks like that one addresses it by the manufacturer like the others did.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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    Default Re: unique garage door- safe?

    This thread is an example of a " wisha, woulda, coulda". Never seriously thought about investing the time, energy and expense into taking pictures, film "Super 8",VCR video and now digital recordings of various garage door installations and repairs starting 40+ years ago. Hind sight is so wonderful.

    But thanks to Al Gore who said, "During my service in the United States Congress, I took the initiative in creating the Internet."

    We all can surf like we lived in California or Hawaii and hang 10 with the big boys.

    Garage Door History - well just a little...

    Ups and Downs of the Garage Door Video - Modern Marvels - HISTORY.com

    The History of Garage Doors

    http://www.dasma.com/articles/featur...y_Fall2014.pdf


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