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  1. #1
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    Default Fire protection for doorway and closet under FROG steps.

    House was built in 2010. In the garage there is a closet built under the staircase to the room over the garage. The interior walls and underside of the steps are not rocked in the closet. The entrance to the closet is a wooden veneer door. Shouldn't this be a fire rated door and the interior sheet rocked?

    Thanks for you replys

    Jim

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  2. #2
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    Default Re: Fire protection for doorway and closet under FROG steps.

    Yes 302.7

    Under-stair protection: Enclosed accessible space under stairs shall have walls, under-stair surface and any soffits protected on the enclosed side with1/2 inch gypsum board.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Yes 302.7

    Under-stair protection: Enclosed accessible space under stairs shall have walls, under-stair surface and any soffits protected on the enclosed side with1/2 inch gypsum board.

    "The Code is not a peak to reach but a foundation to build from."

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Fire protection for doorway and closet under FROG steps.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce Ramsey View Post
    Yes 302.7

    Under-stair protection: Enclosed accessible space under stairs shall have walls, under-stair surface and any soffits protected on the enclosed side with1/2 inch gypsum board.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Yes 302.7

    Under-stair protection: Enclosed accessible space under stairs shall have walls, under-stair surface and any soffits protected on the enclosed side with1/2 inch gypsum board.
    Again, thanks Bruce. That is what I thought including a fire proof door.


  4. #4
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    Default Re: Fire protection for doorway and closet under FROG steps.

    No requirements for the door.

    "The Code is not a peak to reach but a foundation to build from."

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Fire protection for doorway and closet under FROG steps.

    Quote Originally Posted by JIM MURPHY View Post
    Again, thanks Bruce. That is what I thought including a fire proof door.
    If the stairs are drywalled with 1/2 gypsum board, a door is not even required - the drywall would meet the separation requirements.

    Any door will work, even a cloth curtain would work.

    And, not that 'I harp on this much' ... ... but the door between the house and the garage is not required to be a fireproof door, nor even a fire rated door.

    The door is required to be a minimum 1-3/8" thick solid wood door, minimum 1-3/8" thick solid or honey-comb steel door, or ... or a 20 minute rated door, and self-closing:
    - R302.5.1 Opening protection. (underlining is mine)
    - - Openings from a private garage directly into a room used for sleeping purposes shall not be permitted. Other openings between the garage and residence shall be equipped with solid wood doors not less than 1 3/8 inches (35 mm) in thickness, solid or honeycomb-core steel doors not less than 1 3/8 inches (35 mm) thick, or 20-minute fire-rated doors, equipped with a self-closing device.

    And don't forget the "or" in the above.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  6. #6
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    Default Re: Fire protection for doorway and closet under FROG steps.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce Ramsey View Post
    No requirements for the door.
    Ok, now that I think about it more, that would be right!

    Thanks


  7. #7
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    Default Re: Fire protection for doorway and closet under FROG steps.

    And, not that 'I harp on this much' ... ... but the door between the house and the garage is not required to be a fireproof door, nor even a fire rated door.

    The door is required to be a minimum 1-3/8" thick solid wood door, minimum 1-3/8" thick solid or honey-comb steel door, or ... or a 20 minute rated door, and self-closing:
    - R302.5.1 Opening protection. (underlining is mine)
    - - Openings from a private garage directly into a room used for sleeping purposes shall not be permitted. Other openings between the garage and residence shall be equipped with solid wood doors not less than 1 3/8 inches (35 mm) in thickness, solid or honeycomb-core steel doors not less than 1 3/8


    Playing semanticide...if the door is required to be a '20 minute rated door', isn't that for fire protection and therefore a fire rated door?


  8. #8
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    Default Re: Fire protection for doorway and closet under FROG steps.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Page View Post
    And, not that 'I harp on this much' ... ... but the door between the house and the garage is not required to be a fireproof door, nor even a fire rated door.

    The door is required to be a minimum 1-3/8" thick solid wood door, minimum 1-3/8" thick solid or honey-comb steel door, or ... or a 20 minute rated door, and self-closing:
    - R302.5.1 Opening protection. (underlining is mine)
    - - Openings from a private garage directly into a room used for sleeping purposes shall not be permitted. Other openings between the garage and residence shall be equipped with solid wood doors not less than 1 3/8 inches (35 mm) in thickness, solid or honeycomb-core steel doors not less than 1 3/8


    Playing semanticide...if the door is required to be a '20 minute rated door', isn't that for fire protection and therefore a fire rated door?
    IF ... If the door was required to be a 20-minute rated door ... but the door is not required to be a 20-minute rated door ... that is merely one of the options.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  9. #9
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    Default Re: Fire protection for doorway and closet under FROG steps.

    Maybe in your interpretation the door is not required to be a rated 20 min. door, but that's not how I read it. The 'requirement' precedes alternatives/ options but doesn't remove the requirement aspect for a 20 min. Rated door.


  10. #10
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    Default Re: Fire protection for doorway and closet under FROG steps.

    Ian,

    I need some education here - please show me where the ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Page View Post
    Maybe in your interpretation the door is not required to be a rated 20 min. door, but that's not how I read it. The 'requirement' precedes alternatives/ options but doesn't remove the requirement aspect for a 20 min. Rated door.
    ... "requirement" is in the following code section I posted. I am not making an interpretation, I am actually and simply reading what it says ... so, please show me your interpretation of where the requirement is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    And, not that 'I harp on this much' ... ... but the door between the house and the garage is not required to be a fireproof door, nor even a fire rated door.

    The door is required to be a minimum 1-3/8" thick solid wood door, minimum 1-3/8" thick solid or honey-comb steel door, or ... or a 20 minute rated door, and self-closing:
    - R302.5.1 Opening protection. (underlining is mine)
    - - Openings from a private garage directly into a room used for sleeping purposes shall not be permitted. Other openings between the garage and residence shall be equipped with solid wood doors not less than 1 3/8 inches (35 mm) in thickness, solid or honeycomb-core steel doors not less than 1 3/8 inches (35 mm) thick, or 20-minute fire-rated doors, equipped with a self-closing device.

    And don't forget the "or" in the above.
    This is the above code section laid out for easier reading ... and ... if you must ... "interpretation":
    - R302.5.1 Opening protection. (underlining is mine)
    - - Openings from a private garage directly into a room used for sleeping purposes shall not be permitted.
    - - Other openings between the garage and residence shall be equipped with
    - - - solid wood doors not less than 1 3/8 inches (35 mm) in thickness,
    - - - solid or honeycomb-core steel doors not less than 1 3/8 inches (35 mm) thick,
    - - - or
    - - - 20-minute fire-rated doors,
    - - - equipped with a self-closing device.

    I even reminded readers to "And don't forget the "or" in the above."

    So ... please show ... and explain ... just which part of the above code section "requires" the door to be a rated door - have any rating - much less having a specific 20 minute rating.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
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  11. #11
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    Default Re: Fire protection for doorway and closet under FROG steps.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Ian,

    I need some education here - please show me where the ...



    ... "requirement" is in the following code section I posted. I am not making an interpretation, I am actually and simply reading what it says ... so, please show me your interpretation of where the requirement is.



    This is the above code section laid out for easier reading ... and ... if you must ... "interpretation":
    - R302.5.1 Opening protection. (underlining is mine)
    - - Openings from a private garage directly into a room used for sleeping purposes shall not be permitted.
    - - Other openings between the garage and residence shall be equipped with
    - - - solid wood doors not less than 1 3/8 inches (35 mm) in thickness,
    - - - solid or honeycomb-core steel doors not less than 1 3/8 inches (35 mm) thick,
    - - - or
    - - - 20-minute fire-rated doors,
    - - - equipped with a self-closing device.

    I even reminded readers to "And don't forget the "or" in the above."

    So ... please show ... and explain ... just which part of the above code section "requires" the door to be a rated door - have any rating - much less having a specific 20 minute rating.

    Can't be bothered.

    No matter what examples, explanations, use of logic or rationale your mind is set and unchangeable. As I said...semanticide.


  12. #12
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    Default Re: Fire protection for doorway and closet under FROG steps.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Page View Post
    Can't be bothered.

    No matter what examples, explanations, use of logic or rationale your mind is set and unchangeable.
    You haven't given any examples, explanations, logic or rationale ... apparently because you have none ... possibly because your mind is set and refuses to read what is written and consider changing your preconceived "interpretation".

    Fair enough, no evidence presented for your "interpretation" must mean that you recognize that the code is saying what it actually says, and I have shown what the code says ... no "interpretation" on my part.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  13. #13
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    Default Re: Fire protection for doorway and closet under FROG steps.

    Jerry
    So, in your wisdom, have interpreted my lack of response in a poor attempt to support your position, when, in reality it's the only argument you have. i.e. " I said it is so, there is not argument against, so it must be true."


  14. #14
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    Default Re: Fire protection for doorway and closet under FROG steps.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Page View Post
    Jerry
    So, in your wisdom, have interpreted my lack of response in a poor attempt to support your position, when, in reality it's the only argument you have. i.e. " I said it is so, there is not argument against, so it must be true."
    Ian

    In your wisdom, you interpreted the code to try to mean what you wanted it to mean, even though the wording of the code does not say what you wanted it to say.

    So, i interpreted your lack of response in the same way you interpreted the code ... to suit what you wanted it to mean ... if you are saying that I was wrong in my interpretation ... I guess you are also saying that you were wrong in your interpretation?

    I don't have an argument with the wording of the code, I laid the code out quite simply for all to read and follow, including you, I presume that all can follow the actual wording of the code.

    You, on the other hand, say the code says it means something other than it does, and did not offer anything to show or explain why - what am I, or anyone else, supposed to think?

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  15. #15
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    Default Re: Fire protection for doorway and closet under FROG steps.

    Ian,

    It is difficult to have a discussion with someone who says the code means one thing because they interpret the code to mean what they want it to and then refuse to provide backup code or even discussion supporting their interpretation.

    Short of you providing material which purportedly supports your interpretation of the code for further discussion ... there is no point in further discussion when all you respond with is that you have your interpretation and that's it, then you try to fault the discussion on others.

    I am looking forward to information which purportedly supports your interpretation.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  16. #16
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    Default Re: Fire protection for doorway and closet under FROG steps.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Ian,

    It is difficult to have a discussion with someone who says the code means one thing because they interpret the code to mean what they want it to and then refuse to provide backup code or even discussion supporting their interpretation.

    Short of you providing material which purportedly supports your interpretation of the code for further discussion ... there is no point in further discussion when all you respond with is that you have your interpretation and that's it, then you try to fault the discussion on others.

    I am looking forward to information which purportedly supports your interpretation.
    Jerry
    Okay, I'll bite...
    Isn't your opening gambit so true with yourself? You have your interpretation of code and I have mine. Nothing more than an opinion, and like certain parts of human anatomy, everyone has one. I am not faulting your opinion, I merely disagree with it and your interpretation of the written wording, including punctuation.

    In my world, 'shall' is synonymous with 'required' and 20 minuted rated door, albeit an alternative type of door, refers to fire rating. I don't know that 'rating' could possibly refer to anything else in this application. Surely, if it makes sense and code compliant to have fire rated drywall on a house / garage partition wall and, therefore for consistency, a similar requirement to have a fire rated door to any opening between the two as an alternative. Hence, 'shall be equipped with' because it precedes the small list of alternative door types, infers that a 20 minute rated door, if that's the option chosen for installation, is required.

    Perhaps we we have a cross-communication somewhere. You may wish to enlighten me on your position that the door is not required to be (fire) rated, "...could be a cloth curtain..." etc, and how you interpret code.


  17. #17
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    Default Re: Fire protection for doorway and closet under FROG steps.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Page View Post
    You have your interpretation of code and I have mine. Nothing more than an opinion, and like certain parts of human anatomy, everyone has one. I am not faulting your opinion, I merely disagree with it and your interpretation of the written wording, including punctuation.
    You have your interpretation, your opinion, I have copied and pasted the wording of the code, not my interpretation of the code, but the code itself.

    In my world, 'shall' is synonymous with 'required' ...
    It is the same in all worlds.

    The code I posted says this: (underlining is mine)
    Other openings between the garage and residence shall be equipped with
    - - - solid wood doors not less than 1 3/8 inches (35 mm) in thickness,
    - - - solid or honeycomb-core steel doors not less than 1 3/8 inches (35 mm) thick,
    - - - or
    - - - 20-minute fire-rated doors,
    - - - equipped with a self-closing device.

    That "shall" does not state that the opening between the garage and the residence "shall" be equipped with a solid wood door not less than 1 3/8" thick ... AND ... a solid or honeycomb-core steel door not less than 1 3/8" thick ... AND ... a 20-minute fire-rated door - three different doors are not "required", the code has a comma between the different doors, separating the doors into choices, with the last choice, the 20-minute fire-rated door having an "or" in front of it.

    Thus, no, the code does not state:
    In my world, 'shall' is synonymous with 'required' and 20 minuted rated door, albeit an alternative type of door, refers to fire rating ...
    The code states "or" 20-minute fire-rated door - the fire rating is for that particular "or" alternative type of door, no fire rating is stated for any of the other doors.

    I don't know that 'rating' could possibly refer to anything else in this application.
    That "or 20-minute fire-rated doors" is a specific type of door - it is a fire-rated door, the only one of the alternate doors which are required to be fire-rated, and that only one of the alternate doors which is required to have be fire-rated is specifically required to be a 20-minute fire-rated door.

    Surely, if it makes sense and code compliant to have fire rated drywall on a house / garage partition wall and, therefore for consistency, a similar requirement to have a fire rated door to any opening between the two as an alternative.
    I see where your confusion comes from - the wall between the garage and the residence is not required to "have fire rated drywall" on it. All that is required is 1/2" gysum board (drywall), no fire-rating.

    Perhaps we we have a cross-communication somewhere. You may wish to enlighten me on your position that the door is not required to be (fire) rated, "...could be a cloth curtain..." etc, and how you interpret code.
    As long as the inside of that area under the stairs (walls and underside of the stairs) is covered with 1/2" gypsum board, nothing else is required ... unless that stair leads to living space above the garage, then additional ratings come into play, such as 5/8" Type X for the underside of the stair, and 5/8" gypsum board on the garage ceiling under the living space above, with all supporting walls, columns, etc., being covered with at least 1/2" gypsum board ... but ...

    ... but ... no door would be required on that open alcove which would be facing the garage, so, cloth curtains could be installed there.

    However ... IF ... if ... the underside of that stair did not have at least 1/2" gypsum board covering it, then a door would be required to separate it from the garage - but ... that is a moot point because the underside of the stair is required to have protection on it if a door was installed ... and the underside of that stair would be required to have gypsum board on it if a door was not installed - either way, the underside of the stair and the walls need to be covered by gypsum board ... the thickness and type of the gypsum board would be up for discussion.

    Surely, you are not stating that because the code I posted below has a "shall" that the code "requires" three different doors of three different types between the house and the garage ... are you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    - R302.5.1 Opening protection. (underlining is mine)
    - - Openings from a private garage directly into a room used for sleeping purposes shall not be permitted.
    - - Other openings between the garage and residence shall be equipped with
    - - - solid wood doors not less than 1 3/8 inches (35 mm) in thickness,
    - - - solid or honeycomb-core steel doors not less than 1 3/8 inches (35 mm) thick,
    - - - or
    - - - 20-minute fire-rated doors,
    - - - equipped with a self-closing device.

    I even reminded readers to "And don't forget the "or" in the above."
    Ian,

    I do realize that you are in CA, and that, as I recall, CA does "require" a 20-minute fire-rated door (from previous discussions, I think Marc pointed this out), however, I am sure that you realize that the code I posted is from where I stated it was from - the IRC ... not the CRC.

    You can correct me on the requirements the CRC has if it does not require a 20-minute fire-rated door, nonetheless, the discussion in not about the CRC, the discussion is about the IRC.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  18. #18
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    Default Re: Fire protection for doorway and closet under FROG steps.

    Jerry
    I applaud your effort to enlighten me and thank you for the time taken. In reading through your synopsis, I realized the door, in this particular case, was not a door leading directly into the residence and only served an enclosed closet within the garage and now fully concur with you. The 'door' could indeed be a 'cloth curtain' as long as the interior of the closet was sheet rocked. Your further description of the application brought the closet into focus.

    I had mis- read the original post and pictured access into the residence, via the closet. Your first post incorpoating IRC, only fueled my mis-understanding and thought you were referring to a garage - residence penetration door. Clearly, you were not and apologies are extended.

    As for IRC vs CRC - there doesn't appear to be any appreciable difference, except that there is an exception for door types if fire sprinklers are installed in the garage, something I was not aware of. Though I suspect most AHJs would probably require a 20 minute fire-rated door. I have yet to find a garage, with sprinklers, without one.

    Again, apologies and thank you for your lengthy rebuttal.


  19. #19
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    Default Re: Fire protection for doorway and closet under FROG steps.

    Ian,

    No problem ... now to address:

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Page View Post
    ... a door leading directly into the residence ...


    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

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