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  1. #1
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    Default Porch Re-Roof - How Should This Be "Flashed"

    Recent re-roof of porch roof below brick wall. You can see where the previous flashing has been removed, and that sealant has been used instead at the junction with the wall.

    Questions is, what else could have been done in the area underneath the windows where there is no vertical separation of the sills from the shingles?

    And, what would be your recommendation? Conventionally flash the areas where this can be done and monitor the areas below the windows, or leave as is and monitor the entire junction?

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    Last edited by Michael Thomas; 04-11-2007 at 06:35 PM.
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  2. #2
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    Default Re: Porch Re-Roof - How Should This Be "Flashed"

    Porch Re-Roof - How Should This Be "Flashed"

    While wearing the proper open front trench coat.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
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  3. #3
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    Default Re: Porch Re-Roof - How Should This Be "Flashed"

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Thomas View Post
    Recent re-roof of porch roof below brick wall. You can see where the previous flashing has been removed, and that sealant has been used instead at the junction with the wall.

    Questions is, what else could have been done in the area underneath the windows where there is no vertical separation of the sills from the shingles?

    And, what would be your recommendation? Conventionally flash the areas where this can be done and monitor the areas below the windows, or leave as is and monitor the entire junction?
    For starters its is a hack job! Sealants do not take the place of flashing.

    Scott Patterson, ACI
    Spring Hill, TN
    www.traceinspections.com

  4. #4
    Joseph P. Hagarty's Avatar
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    Default Re: Porch Re-Roof - How Should This Be "Flashed"

    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Patterson View Post
    For starters its is a hack job! Sealants do not take the place of flashing.
    I agree.

    I had recently received a Letter from a Roofer (who disagreed with my report findings) that suggested otherwise.

    Here is an excerpt...

    “ ...Maintenance work was performed and completed so there would be no problems with a roof inspection for the possible sale of the house. There were never any leak issues. The roof is found to be in good condition and is not leaking at this time.

    Silicone is a perfectly acceptable and is the best material to use for sealing flashings, and various areas of a shingle roof. It never dries out, cracks or splits because it stays rubbery, it is a clear material so not to disturb the look of the roof. It is virtually the only material on the market made for this application and anybody who says differently has absolutely no clue about roofing....”


  5. #5
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    Default Re: Porch Re-Roof - How Should This Be "Flashed"

    Of course it's a hack job. --- you should see the roof "repairs".

    This work was done for an elderly widow --- I was SO pissed when I saw it.

    And it's ALL like this.

    However, the roofer presumably already has a tar pot, all we need to bring are are the feathers.

    ------------

    Still, the question remains: what's the "right" technique under those windows?

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    Default Re: Porch Re-Roof - How Should This Be "Flashed"

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Thomas View Post
    Of course it's a hack job. --- you should see the roof "repairs".

    This work was done for an elderly widow --- I was SO pissed when I saw it.

    And it's ALL like this.

    However, the roofer presumably already has a tar pot, all we need to bring are are the feathers.

    ------------

    Still, the question remains: what's the "right" technique under those windows?
    I can't see it all, but I would say that it needs some custom metal work on the lines of a cricket. Then you could transition on to the shingles.

    Scott Patterson, ACI
    Spring Hill, TN
    www.traceinspections.com

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    Default Re: Porch Re-Roof - How Should This Be "Flashed"

    "Silicone is a perfectly acceptable and is the best material to use for sealing flashings, and various areas of a shingle roof... "

    Absolutely.

    It's the mark of a master crapsmanship

    For example, here's a particularly apt use of silicone from another part of that same roof, a meandering bead of slobbered on sealant above a shingle they pieced in.

    Who could ask more for their money?

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    Last edited by Michael Thomas; 04-12-2007 at 10:50 AM.

  8. #8
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    Cool Re: Porch Re-Roof - How Should This Be "Flashed"

    First of all that roof was not in need of repair. That roof was/ in need of replacement.

    The "roofer" is some out-of-town hack that is a here-today, gone-tomorrow fly-by-nighter that was out to take a little old lady's money that obviously couldn't afford a new one (roof) so he took her for what she had.

    That POS!!!

    Here is what I would do... I'd take that letter, make a copy of it and send the copy to the local news station and ask them to meet me at the home at which time I would personally have paid for a couple of other roofing companies to joint in on the fun. I would love to have everyone in viewing distance of that 'widow-scammers' work area to know what he is doing to the unknowing and expose this SOB for stealing folks hard earned money.

    If you can't tell, this type gets my blood pumping pretty good.

    Rich


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    Default Re: Porch Re-Roof - How Should This Be "Flashed"

    Scott,

    Here's a wider view - the problem is that there is around 18" on the side of each window toward the center where the roof essentially runs up into contact with the window sill and there's no space below the window to allow conventional flashing to be let into the brick or even attached to it with silicone or anything else. I don't think this is a result of the roof's profile having being changed. I think it was bad design from the start, and it's not clear to me how this ought to be done "properly".

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  10. #10
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    Default Re: Porch Re-Roof - How Should This Be "Flashed"

    Michael,

    There should be metal L-flashing from the wall (top sealed) to the roof covering (nailed and sealed) along this location. Now, getting the L-flashing behind that window will be a bit tricky and will need sealing up, but is quite do-able.

    Very bad design.

    RR


  11. #11
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    Default Re: Porch Re-Roof - How Should This Be "Flashed"

    It looks like the lower part of the house might have been added onto the house. I bet they expanded the lower floorspace and moved that roof line out and that is why that window is so close to the roof.

    Scott Patterson, ACI
    Spring Hill, TN
    www.traceinspections.com

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    Default Re: Porch Re-Roof - How Should This Be "Flashed"

    If you look at the picture closely you will see the mortar removed from the areas where the old step flasing was installed between the bricks and even though step flashing in brick is not a gauranteed water deterant it is still better than what,s there. So the answer is, install proper step flashing at roof to wall conection


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    Default Re: Porch Re-Roof - How Should This Be "Flashed"

    And, then there's the issue of shingling a roof of that pitch in the first place... the sheathing was soft in several spots and I was wandering around up there on my hands and knees, afraid I would put a foot through it - finished surface below and no way to inspect from the underside first (I did *not* get up on that main roof - no point and forget about loose granules, I was worried about broken and loose *shingles* - the shots are from a ladder at the eaves).

    As for boiling blood, what writing this report is doing is depressing me. It's a pre-listing inspection and it's clear why the agent wanted to get me over there - I'm doing a bit of the heavy lifting to help the seller understand the current condition of the property. And I'm fine with this - this is one of the most ethical agents in town, and *never* complains if I come back with report listing series defects, even if it "kills the deal".

    But there is just so much that's done wrong, and so much of it is just plain deeply stupid.

    You install a new foundation drain system... and then power the pump with an 20' extension cord festooned from various points on the basement ceiling.

    You build a rear porch with a shed roof, and then support the lower edge with a 2X 2x4s spanning 8'... and when they sag, you put a 2x10" underneath that, toe nailed to the 4x4 posts.... AFTER carefully cutting the top edge to a curve matching the sagging 2x4s - and I mean CAREFULLY.... as in 4X the time it would take to do it right.

    And the inquiring mind wants to know: where do you find these people?

    Is there some sort of anti-Angie's List, where all the evil rehab geniuses of the world hang out after-hours to laugh at the flippers who hire them at their day jobs and trade cards with the names and addresses of older single women who own big houses for their weekend gigs... ?

    Last edited by Michael Thomas; 04-12-2007 at 07:16 AM.

  14. #14
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    Default Re: Porch Re-Roof - How Should This Be "Flashed"

    Scott,

    Enclosed front porch, no change in footprint. I don't believe they altered the roof line, just poor design - it's common in this area to see 2nd floor windows only an inch or two above the porch roof, and in fact this is better than many as there is a stone sill rather then just wood.

    And the fact that they did not repoint after removing the previous flashing is probably a good thing, as it will be easier to re-do the job properly.

    As for those windows, of course I'm not specifying a repair, but it would seem to me that about all you could do would be to embed a short flashing in the masonry under the sill (SS would be nice there) interfaced with something like ice-and-water shield used as a continuous underlayerment all the way down to the eaves to deal with the low slope, and at the sides and between the windows reinstall conventional flashing.

    Am I on the right track?


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    Cool Re: Porch Re-Roof - How Should This Be "Flashed"

    From what I see in these pics, you're looking at repointing the wall, complete reflashing, and probably complete reroofing. Caulk is NOT an acceptable substitute for flashing by anybody's std.

    I'd refer them to comply with the NRCA's Roofing and Waterproofing Handbook, 5th Ed. and their Low Slope Guidebook.: NRCA | National Roofing Contractors Association
    This looks to be right at a 2/12 pitch, which is the min. allowable for most asphalt shingles. Even then, when under 4/12, most mfrs. require two layers of underlayment and possibly additional sealing of the shingle tab corners with plastic asphalt roof cement.

    HTH

    Last edited by Bob Harper; 04-12-2007 at 10:32 AM. Reason: kant schpell
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    Default Re: Porch Re-Roof - How Should This Be "Flashed"

    Send that hack to me. I'll strangle the idiot. Silicone is not an approved sealant for shingles. Urethane that stays pliable is. Specifically Chem-caulk. The brick wall needs steps flashings and counter flashing's installed. The hack probably did not have a break to bend it. At the sill because of it's design you will need to step flash it and cut a kurf in the sill and counter. I guess you can paint it white.

    Believe it or not they still do this on new construction. The brick row under the window would sit on the roof. I tell the builder they have to remove the brick row and I install a pan in the pocket with a turned out apron. Then they re-install the brick.
    Look close at these areas on new construction. I find roofers place there apron flashing to the window and then cut the face off of a piece and slip it under the window to appear like it is flashed.

    Mike Schulz License 393
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  17. #17
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    Default Re: Porch Re-Roof - How Should This Be "Flashed"

    Mike,

    "I tell the builder they have to remove the brick row and I install a pan in the pocket with a turned out apron. Then they re-install the brick."

    Do you have a pic or diagram of that?

    Thanks


  18. #18
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    Default Re: Porch Re-Roof - How Should This Be "Flashed"

    Joseph,

    I recently went to see one of my daughters in Bryn Mawr. I think the roofer who sent you the letter must have been the guy who did her roof.

    Anyway, maybe you could offer to by one of the local AHJ's a cup of coffee to meet you at the house and ask him what he thinks? Wanna bet on if there was a permit pulled?

    I love it when the bad guys are also stupid. Your home owner can add that letter to the paper work she gives the buyer. When it leaks and they get to court with the roofer, he can explain where he got his information concerning sealant being a substitute for flashing.

    The only reason some people get lost in thought is because it's unfamiliar territory.
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  19. #19
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    Default Re: Porch Re-Roof - How Should This Be "Flashed"

    I don't think you need a permit for a roof. Not around here. No I don't have any pictures of the flash detail I use to do. I retired from that profession.

    Mike Schulz License 393
    Affordable Home Inspections
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  20. #20
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    Default Re: Porch Re-Roof - How Should This Be "Flashed"

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Schulz View Post
    I don't think you need a permit for a roof. Not around here.
    You DON'T?

    WOW!

    That would be, should be, one of the most important ones.

    Besides, the code requires a permit for the ... oh, yeah ... I forgot ... some here don't care what 'the code' requires, just what they think is good in the code or not ... (not necessarily referring to you Mike, just some other threads)

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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    www.AskCodeMan.com

  21. #21
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    Default Re: Porch Re-Roof - How Should This Be "Flashed"

    I think I know what stack, I mean thread you are talking about!

    I have worked with a couple of companys and re-roofs did not require it. At least they never obtain one .

    Mike Schulz License 393
    Affordable Home Inspections
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  22. #22
    imported_John Smith's Avatar
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    Default Re: Porch Re-Roof - How Should This Be "Flashed"

    Im surprised these fly by night roofers didnt split their beer cans to use for flashing. Silicone sealant used in place of flashing is stupid.
    This is typical of the "storm chaser" type roofers that always seem to show up after major storms. When they arent doing roofs, they are probably selling the "left over black top" for driveways.
    I challenge all of my fellow home inspectors to continue educating the public on the benefits of home inspection. As far as an elderly person getting screwed out of their money, I would be willing to answer any questions they have for free. I try to give discounts to elderly,handicapped, and veterans.


  23. #23
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    Default Re: Porch Re-Roof - How Should This Be "Flashed"

    John,

    Just out of curiosity, what's with the "imported" John Smith?


  24. #24
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    Default Re: Porch Re-Roof - How Should This Be "Flashed"

    Tim,
    The imported thing copied over from the last version of Inspection News (which I preferred to this one). I am an American.


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