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Thread: Fire Egress

  1. #1
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    Default Fire Egress

    This home was remodeled in 2012. A basement bedroom was added and the photo's show the exterior egress.
    I cannot find anything in the code beyond requiring a ladder. How is someone going to get safely over the railing?

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    Default Re: Fire Egress

    these do work in a pinch & are also useful for setting up & accessing hunting cache

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  3. #3
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    Default Re: Fire Egress

    The ladder you are referring to needs to go to the top of the recess so they can escape ... right?

    Where is the 'top' of that one?

    I don't have the code handy, but isn't there a maximum depth/height in the code?

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    Default Re: Fire Egress

    top of well is @ grade
    48" pedestrian guard rail is just that
    no code reference to the higher point beyond well or that address' this specific configuration...common sense being uncommon again
    i'd report & advise client of the potential danger for those unable to get over it (rail) furnish common sense options & move on

    2015 irc

    well.jpg

    Last edited by BARRY ADAIR; 03-19-2016 at 10:56 AM.
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    Default Re: Fire Egress

    Quote Originally Posted by BARRY ADAIR View Post
    top of well is @ grade
    48" pedestrian guard rail is just that
    The depth of the 'well' would be to the top of the 'well' - part of that 'well' is see through railing ... I would have them prove that the 'depth' does not extend all the way to the top of the 'climb over edge' ... I doubt they can prove that.

    The depth of the 'well' without railing is to grade.

    The depth of the 'well' with railing/wall/curb/whatever obstruction is placed around the well is now to the top of that railing/wall/curb/whatever obstruction.

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    Default Re: Fire Egress

    Put a gate in the railing. Cutting torch, a little hardware, and some welding. I'm thinking less than an hour.


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    Default Re: Fire Egress

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Feldmann View Post
    Put a gate in the railing. Cutting torch, a little hardware, and some welding. I'm thinking less than an hour.
    Sounds like a plan - as long as the gate aligned with the ladder, the latch was inside the gate down near the bottom where someone climbing the ladder would see the latch and be able to easily operate the latch with no special knowledge (of the latches location or operation) with the gate swinging outward.

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    Default Re: Fire Egress

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Sounds like a plan - as long as the gate aligned with the ladder, the latch was inside the gate down near the bottom where someone climbing the ladder would see the latch and be able to easily operate the latch with no special knowledge (of the latches location or operation) with the gate swinging outward.
    Still, probably less than an hour.


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    Default Re: Fire Egress

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Feldmann View Post
    Still, probably less than an hour.
    Jack,

    I wasn't making a comment on the time, only that the time can be spent doing it wrong or doing it right.

    I can just see someone putting in a gate, with the latch at the top, and the gate swings into the well, knocking the person off the ladder after they had to climb to the top of the ladder to reach the latch ...

    It would be good to have a self-opening hinge set to open the gate automatically once the latch was released.

    Of course ... ... if they put a gate in that fence they will need to add fence posts for the fence and gate. Or they could hinge the bottom of the fence posts which support that fence and install a gate release at the ladder which would simply pull a retaining pin at each top corner, then the entire fence section falls outward - but we don't want to get to sophisticated and easy on something so simple to do.

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    Default Re: Fire Egress

    In event of fire, climb ladder, lean over railing, and fall as gracefully as you can. If you are too short, holler real loud?


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    Default Re: Fire Egress

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Jack,

    I wasn't making a comment on the time, only that the time can be spent doing it wrong or doing it right.

    I can just see someone putting in a gate, with the latch at the top, and the gate swings into the well, knocking the person off the ladder after they had to climb to the top of the ladder to reach the latch ...

    It would be good to have a self-opening hinge set to open the gate automatically once the latch was released.

    Of course ... ... if they put a gate in that fence they will need to add fence posts for the fence and gate. Or they could hinge the bottom of the fence posts which support that fence and install a gate release at the ladder which would simply pull a retaining pin at each top corner, then the entire fence section falls outward - but we don't want to get to sophisticated and easy on something so simple to do.
    Jerry, I just thought of one solution that came to mind. You notice I didn't specify all of the potential issues that just might come up, such as a sharp metal piece (on the properly sized, located, latch installation correct, and painted with the proper paint) that isn't ground down, cuts the person trying to escape a fire, and they bleed to death. Obviously its just not possible to cover all of the bases.


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    Default Re: Fire Egress

    Weld a few horizontal bars across the guard above the ladder. Thus, the ladder extends. But, did anyone think about the potential for injury once the person is at the top of the rail and ready to fall over the outside? Hmmm....

    I cant imaging why they didn't just put a flat grate over the well like usual.


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    Default Re: Fire Egress

    Quote Originally Posted by John Dirks Jr View Post
    Weld a few horizontal bars across the guard above the ladder. Thus, the ladder extends. But, did anyone think about the potential for injury once the person is at the top of the rail and ready to fall over the outside? Hmmm....
    Yes - that's why the gate or have the railing 'fall outward' ... barrier is gone, climb ladder, and ... Run, Forest, Run ...

    Jack - that's why all the smilies in that post ...

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    Default Re: Fire Egress

    Just a thought. Modifying a codified building regulation by adding permanent lateral fixations to the complaint guard rails is less than logical.

    Mr. Addair's post is what is required.
    Egress wall to grade.
    The guard rail is in place atop the egress to avoid yard accidents.

    I am quite sure one will be capable of grasping the vertical members of the guard rail that are in line with the ladder side rails to reach and grasp with safety the top guardrail bar, plant one's feet firmly on the concrete retaining wall of the egress, then learn one's body over the top guard rail and fall to safety if worse came to worse.

    Even Forest Gump would do it while eating a box of chocolates thinking stupid is as stupid does, best to leave codified components as is.

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    Default Re: Fire Egress

    Quote Originally Posted by ROBERT YOUNG View Post
    Just a thought. Modifying a codified building regulation by adding permanent lateral fixations to the complaint guard rails is less than logical.
    Except that one is not modifying a "codified building regulation", one is modifying a non-compliant railing to make it compliant (with the requirements for the EERO window well and maintain its required strength as required for a railing - i.e., so it meets both requirements).

    Mr. Addair's post is what is required.
    Egress wall to grade.
    The guard rail is in place atop the egress to avoid yard accidents.
    Only partially correct.

    Egress wall to grade when there is no railing - that part is correct.

    The addition/installation of the railing raises the egress wall to the top of the railing.

    I am quite sure one will be capable of grasping the vertical members of the guard rail that are in line with the ladder side rails to reach and grasp with safety the top guardrail bar, plant one's feet firmly on the concrete retaining wall of the egress, then learn one's body over the top guard rail and fall to safety if worse came to worse.

    Even Forest Gump would do it while eating a box of chocolates thinking stupid is as stupid does, best to leave codified components as is.
    Now look who is proposing stupid ...

    You want someone who is trying to escape a fire, a child even, to stand on top of the ladder and scale a 4 foot high railing? Without being concerned about falling back down toward the fire? And without being concerned about falling back into the well and being injured? I am hoping you were just kidding on that part and that you just forgot to put a smiley face there showing you were just kidding ...

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    Default Re: Fire Egress

    [QUOTE=Jerry Peck;264828]Except that one is not modifying a "codified building regulation", one is modifying a non-compliant railing to make it compliant (with the requirements for the EERO window well and maintain its required strength as required for a railing - i.e., so it meets both requirements).

    You want someone who is trying to escape a fire, a child even, to stand on top of the ladder and scale a 4 foot high railing? QUOTE]

    1: The IRC requires guardrails to be at least 36" in height, not 48" or four feet.
    2: A post you agreed to is prescribing a fix.
    3: Anyone, including children or grandparents for
    that matter can fall over while climbing or descending a ladder.

    Once lateral bars are installed on guard rail, or outward swinging gate, it can be used as ladder or a means to climb and fall inside the egress.

    A self-closing self latching gate makes sense.

    Not being caught up on EERO I will do so to further the Forest Gump discussion.




    Last edited by ROBERT YOUNG; 03-21-2016 at 10:04 AM.
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    Default Re: Fire Egress

    Quote Originally Posted by ROBERT YOUNG View Post
    1: The IRC requires guardrails to be at least 36" in height, not 48" or four feet.


    MINIMUM

    The person wanting or installing the guard can make the guard ANY HEIGHT GREATER than the minimum, that guard could be made 8 FEET high if desired.

    2: A post you agreed to is prescribing a fix.
    And?

    [quote]3: Anyone, including children or grandparents for
    that matter can fall over while climbing or descending a ladder. [/quote[

    Not as easily as trying to scale that guard ...

    Once lateral bars are installed on guard rail, or outward swinging gate, it can be used as ladder or a means to climb and fall inside the egress.
    I did not promote lateral bars, however ... lateral bars are not prohibited by code.

    An outward swinging gate provides a means to fall inside the egress? How? Other than when one opens the gate. That is no more risk than standing at the top of a spiral stair and getting ready to descend - open the gate and, like with any opening, one needs to be aware of what is on the other side (charging bulls, mad dogs, a ladder to climb down into an EERO window well).

    A self-closing self latching gate makes sense.
    As does a self-opening gate once the latch is released (for EERO needs). I am sure that a little bit of thinking will produce the ability to have the gate self-opening when the latch is released, and, upon the gate opening 90 degrees or more, the gate could become self-closing - but the better way is to not have that fence there at all, protect the EERO window well some other way (although I think that fence (guard) is better than a horizontal grate one would need to lift off or push up to flip open - consider a child having to push up a horizontal grate so they could escape ... the child would be trapped between the burning house and the grate then cannot push up - not a good way to go ...

    Not being caught up on EERO I will do so to further the Forest Gump discussion.
    The Forest Gump discussion is the easy part - stupid is as stupid does ... resolving that fence added to increase the height of the well wall for EERO is the interesting part of the discussion as it brings up all kinds of possibilities and potential fixes, each with their own pros and cons.

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    Default Re: Fire Egress

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    MINIMUM

    The person wanting or installing the guard can make the guard ANY HEIGHT GREATER than the minimum, that guard could be made 8 FEET high if desired.
    The OP did not mention 48" or 4 feet.

    As for lateral bars on any guard rails, many inspectors including myself point out that lateral running fixations can be climbed by children. It is an invitation to their acrobatics:-)

    Code is not always right or completely throughout when codified. It is a minimum building requirement that undergoes changes.

    As for EERO, I will have to pursue that later as expressed perviously.

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    Default Re: Fire Egress

    Quote Originally Posted by ROBERT YOUNG View Post
    The OP did not mention 48" or 4 feet.
    Nope. Barry did in post #4.

    As for lateral bars on any guard rails, many inspectors including myself point out that lateral running fixations can be climbed by children. It is an invitation to their acrobatics:-)
    Yep. But it is NOT against code. Wishful thinking, write up what you want, just as long as there is no implication that something 'should' or 'should not' be done that way.

    Code is "minimum", not "maximum".

    Code is not always right or completely throughout when codified. It is a minimum building requirement that undergoes changes.
    Yep. Code is "minimum" and goes through changes. Just like 'safety' goes through changes - things which were considered 'safe' decades ago are now considered 'not safe', and, likely, things that are considered 'safe' today will be considered 'not safe' decades from now ... not a problem ... in another decade ... I'm not going to be concerned with 'codes' and all that stuff (I'll probably have a different hobby then).
    ... maybe even less than another decade (that should bring a bright spot to some here ).

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    Default Re: Fire Egress

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Nope. Barry did in post #4.
    I was referring to the OP that is unless Barry was there of course or maybe he has technology that can measure a pic in a post.
    Never know. It could happen.



    [/QUOTE]Yep. But it is NOT against code. Wishful thinking, write up what you want, just as long as there is no implication that something 'should' or 'should not' be done that way.

    Code is "minimum", not "maximum".[/QUOTE]

    I concur.
    You think Mike Holmes knows about this.



    [/QUOTE] Yep. Code is "minimum" and goes through changes. Just like 'safety' goes through changes - things which were considered 'safe' decades ago are now considered 'not safe', and, likely, things that are considered 'safe' today will be considered 'not safe' decades from now ... not a problem ... in another decade ... I'm not going to be concerned with 'codes' and all that stuff (I'll probably have a different hobby then).
    ... maybe even less than another decade (that should bring a bright spot to some here ).[/QUOTE]

    Ha ha ha. Jerry, I hope not. But even if you do, I hope you maintain this hobby at InspectionNews.
    Although some may agree while others not, it would leave a huge whole here and no one would be sure about how to build the right safety egress when backed into the basement during a discussion with you.

    Last edited by ROBERT YOUNG; 03-21-2016 at 02:11 PM.
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    Default Re: Fire Egress

    I was referring to the OP that is unless Barry was there of course or maybe he has technology that can measure a pic in a post.
    Never know. It could happen.
    i erred using gf ruler
    but not difficult
    count adjacent 12 courses of brick

    Last edited by BARRY ADAIR; 03-21-2016 at 06:19 PM.
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    Default Re: Fire Egress

    Quote Originally Posted by BARRY ADAIR View Post
    not difficult
    count adjacent 12 courses of brick
    Not really that simple.
    Not all brick have the same dimensions.
    The same with mortar joint depth.

    A mason evaluates brick dimension with mortar bed and head joint height.
    Usually this is a planned designed by the architect and engineer.

    The masonry has to fit the wall opening dimensions.
    If the wrong size brick or mortar bed joint is used the veneer might not line up with the window opening.

    You have to do your math to see what brick size fits as well as how deep the bed head and butt joints will be.

    A dry run setup is done on all sides prior to the four corners being laid out.

    You can always control the bed or head depth as you build up your courses to wall opening.
    Thats is how I did it.

    The brick appear to be a modular dimension.
    2.25" high.
    Add 3/8th bed joint and multiply times 12 one can approximate about 32" inches with a 3/8ths joint.

    Last edited by ROBERT YOUNG; 03-21-2016 at 06:19 PM.
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    Default Re: Fire Egress

    I just found this.
    Does it fit the tread?

    R310.4 Bars, grilles, covers and screens.
    - Bars, grilles, covers, screens or similar devices are permitted to be placed over emergency escape and rescue openings, bulkhead enclosures, or window wells that serve such openings, provided the minimum net clear opening size complies with Sections R310.1.1 to R310.1.3, and such devices shall be releasable or removable from the inside without the use of a key, tool, special knowledge or force greater than that which is required for normal operation of the escape and rescue opening.

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    Default Re: Fire Egress

    Quote Originally Posted by ROBERT YOUNG View Post
    I just found this.
    Does it fit the tread?

    R310.4 Bars, grilles, covers and screens.
    - Bars, grilles, covers, screens or similar devices are permitted to be placed over emergency escape and rescue openings, bulkhead enclosures, or window wells that serve such openings, provided the minimum net clear opening size complies with Sections R310.1.1 to R310.1.3, and such devices shall be releasable or removable from the inside without the use of a key, tool, special knowledge or force greater than that which is required for normal operation of the escape and rescue opening.
    It does, and the same requirements would apply to an gate in the fence, and to a mechanism which would release the entire fence to flop out and down onto the ground (that would be my preferred choice as, with the entire fence down, rescue workers would have the entire width to rescue people and help them up and out, and, the risk of the fence being down accidentally and someone walking up and falling into the well is far less than the risk of someone opening a gate and the gate not self-closing and not self-latching).

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    Default Re: Fire Egress

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    It does, and the same requirements would apply to an gate in the fence, and to a mechanism which would release the entire fence to flop out and down onto the ground (that would be my preferred choice as, with the entire fence down, rescue workers would have the entire width to rescue people and help them up and out, and, the risk of the fence being down accidentally and someone walking up and falling into the well is far less than the risk of someone opening a gate and the gate not self-closing and not self-latching).
    1: Where emergency escape and rescue openings are provided they shall have a sill height of not more than 44" inches.
    2: or force greater than that which is required for normal operation of the escape and rescue opening."

    If an individual made it up the ladder to the sill height of the EERO they would not exert more force to get over a 32" guardrail.

    It is a clear opening.
    Nothing is blocking a means escape.
    No key is required to remove bars or force to lift a bulkhead.
    The retaining wall CMU coping is stable footing to get over a 32 inch guardrail.
    The guard is just another means to escape to a rescue opening.

    If an individual made it up the ladder to the retaining wall sill height of the EERO, they would not exert more force to get over a 32" guardrail.

    The emergency escape route has not been fully established.

    The acronym threw me off.
    I am use to egress.

    Last edited by ROBERT YOUNG; 03-22-2016 at 04:57 AM.
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    Default Re: Fire Egress

    Not to look at common sense but exact wording in code.

    Exactly where do you find the specifications (requirement) for the height of the ladder? I see a ladder is required but I do not see exactly where it is to terminate.

    R310.2.1 Ladder and steps.
    Window wells with a vertical depth greater than 44 inches (1118 mm) shall be equipped with a permanently affixed ladder or steps usable with the window in the fully open position. Ladders or steps required by this section shall not be required to comply with Sections R311.7 and R311.8. Ladders or rungs shall have an inside width of at least 12 inches (305 mm), shall project at least 3 inches (76 mm) from the wall and shall be spaced not more than 18 inches (457 mm) on center vertically for the full height of the window well.


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    Default Re: Fire Egress

    Quote Originally Posted by Garry Sorrells View Post
    Not to look at common sense but exact wording in code.

    Exactly where do you find the specifications (requirement) for the height of the ladder? I see a ladder is required but I do not see exactly where it is to terminate.

    R310.2.1 Ladder and steps.
    Window wells with a vertical depth greater than 44 inches (1118 mm) shall be equipped with a permanently affixed ladder or steps usable with the window in the fully open position. Ladders or steps required by this section shall not be required to comply with Sections R311.7 and R311.8. Ladders or rungs shall have an inside width of at least 12 inches (305 mm), shall project at least 3 inches (76 mm) from the wall and shall be spaced not more than 18 inches (457 mm) on center vertically for the full height of the window well.
    Garry, very good question.
    I asked myself that question but have not reviewed the entire code as of yet.

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    Default Re: Fire Egress

    Quote Originally Posted by Garry Sorrells View Post
    Not to look at common sense but exact wording in code.

    Exactly where do you find the specifications (requirement) for the height of the ladder? I see a ladder is required but I do not see exactly where it is to terminate.

    R310.2.1 Ladder and steps.
    Window wells with a vertical depth greater than 44 inches (1118 mm) shall be equipped with a permanently affixed ladder or steps usable with the window in the fully open position. Ladders or steps required by this section shall not be required to comply with Sections R311.7 and R311.8. Ladders or rungs shall have an inside width of at least 12 inches (305 mm), shall project at least 3 inches (76 mm) from the wall and shall be spaced not more than 18 inches (457 mm) on center vertically for the full height of the window well.
    The answer is at the end of the last sentence in the code section you posted.

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    Default Re: Fire Egress

    Quote Originally Posted by ROBERT YOUNG View Post
    Garry, very good question.
    I asked myself that question but have not reviewed the entire code as of yet.
    Thanks. Don't know why I was not seeing it. Maybe forest for the trees issue.

    R310.2.1 Ladder and steps.
    ...............on center vertically for the full height of the window well.


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    Default Re: Fire Egress

    [QUOTE=Garry Sorrells;264879]
    Maybe forest for the trees issue./QUOTE]
    Ha ha ha!!!
    It happens to the best of us.

    I can see a ladder off center.
    The vertically throws me off.

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    Default Re: Fire Egress

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    The answer is at the end of the last sentence in the code section you posted.
    Thanks.

    Jerry, I think the point I am trying to make here is that a guardrail is considered fall protection.
    The window-well stands alone in the EERO in this case.

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    Default Re: Fire Egress

    Quote Originally Posted by ROBERT YOUNG View Post
    I can see a ladder off center.
    The vertically throws me off.
    You need to read the first part of the sentence for that to make sense ... Garry included that wording, but that wording doesn't apply to 'height'.

    The ladder much be at least 3 inches out from the wall - to allow for toe space.

    The ladder must be at least 12 inches between the side rails to allow enough room between the side rails.

    The ladder rungs must not be more than 18 inches apart - seems to me that this distance should be no more than 12 inches ... but I don't write the code - to allow children and older people to more easily climb the ladder.

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    Default Re: Fire Egress

    Quote Originally Posted by ROBERT YOUNG View Post
    Thanks.

    Jerry, I think the point I am trying to make here is that a guardrail is considered fall protection.
    The window-well stands alone in the EERO in this case.
    From up on grade looking down - yes.

    The point I am making is from the EERO window well looking up and escaping up.

    I've been waiting for someone to state that viewpoint (yours) ... so here goes ...

    You were a mason ...

    If someone laid up a concrete block wall where the fence is ... still "fall protection"? Are you still not considering it an extension to the height of the well? That would definitely be an extension to the height of the well ... you agree - right?

    What if that block wall had every other block removed? Still an extension to the height of the wall. Still can't get through the block wall.

    The wall is laid up with 8x8x8 block ... stack bond ... every other stack is removed? Still an extension to the height of the wall. Still can't get through the block wall.

    Okay ... so now you are arguing about the width of the verticals and the width of the spaces in that fence? Really? You still can't get through it.

    It's the height of the blockage that one still must climb up and over that matters.

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    Default Re: Fire Egress

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    From up on grade looking down - yes.

    The point I am making is from the EERO window well looking up and escaping up.

    I've been waiting for someone to state that viewpoint (yours) ... so here goes ...

    You were a mason ...

    If someone laid up a concrete block wall where the fence is ... still "fall protection"? Are you still not considering it an extension to the height of the well? That would definitely be an extension to the height of the well ... you agree - right?

    What if that block wall had every other block removed? Still an extension to the height of the wall. Still can't get through the block wall.

    The wall is laid up with 8x8x8 block ... stack bond ... every other stack is removed? Still an extension to the height of the wall. Still can't get through the block wall.

    Okay ... so now you are arguing about the width of the verticals and the width of the spaces in that fence? Really? You still can't get through it.

    It's the height of the blockage that one still must climb up and over that matters.
    Thank you for allowing us to see how you think, which is quite profound by the way, Jerry.
    You are a man of applied thinking. Kudo's mate!

    As to your observation, You were a mason ..., after I die the word "were" can be used as a reference, ha ha ha.
    To be honest, to which I am a man of God Our Father, unlicensed, mentored by licensed, and at the end, self taught...
    I read about and created my own techniques for restorative masonry work.
    I am quite proud of the restorative work I performed all homes, with some well over 100 years old.
    The best compliment, "We knew the home would be much nice after you finished Mr. Young but we never thought it would look like that!"
    120 year old english styled semi victorian. Took 2.5 days to find 200 matching reclaimed brick.
    Yes I erred walking the trades, as we all, but I am not Our Father.



    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    What if that block wall had every other block removed?
    Jerry, I will put that direction to a quick halt.
    "if's" are great in a debate, but in this case there is no debate.
    It is a steel guard rail approximately 32" high unless Mr. Adair has other verifiable measurements he wishes to add...
    They appear to be standard or modular units.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    It's the height of the blockage that one still must climb up and over that matters.
    As for blockage, I use fiber

    The guard is fall protection and nothing more.
    Yes someone could engineer a fallaway gate, but remember Newton's laws.
    The third law would do in this case seeing the word force is used.
    Motion; for every force there is a action and opposite reaction.
    "or force greater than that which is required for normal operation of the escape and rescue opening."
    What if someone applied force on the gate, but from the yard side?
    That would be a lot of force and live load falling on a child or adult.

    Last edited by ROBERT YOUNG; 03-23-2016 at 06:01 AM. Reason: morning and without coffee :-(
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    Default Re: Fire Egress

    Maybe I'm not seeing this right but it looks to me like that window is a fixed window, or is there another window we aren't seeing? If it is a crank out would it block the opening?

    Tom Rees / A Closer Look Home Inspection / Salt Lake City, Utah

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    Default Re: Fire Egress

    Quote Originally Posted by ROBERT YOUNG View Post
    Jerry, I will put that direction to a quick halt.
    "if's" are great in a debate, but in this case there is no debate.
    It is a steel guard rail approximately 32" high unless Mr. Adair has other verifiable measurements he wishes to add...
    They appear to be standard or modular units.
    Being as you put an end to the ifs (by including your own ifs) - at 32 " high ... that fence is not even a guardrail ... not high enough to be a guardrail.


    The guard is fall protection and nothing more.
    That fence is a vertical extension of the well.

    That fence may have also been intended to be a guardrail, but (by your own calculations) it is not.

    Yes someone could engineer a fallaway gate, but remember Newton's laws.
    The third law would do in this case seeing the word force is used.
    Motion; for every force there is a action and opposite reaction.
    "or force greater than that which is required for normal operation of the escape and rescue opening."
    What if someone applied force on the gate, but from the yard side?
    That would be a lot of force and live load falling on a child or adult.
    Someone must not have slept at a Holiday Inn recently enough ...

    Robert, think about what you said and about how I described the fence opening.

    Here's a clue - a release allows the fence to fall away from the well.

    Okay, now push on the fence from the other side (standing on grade looking into the well) ... you can push as hard as the fence was designed to resist ... and all you are doing is pushing the fence tighter to its mountings.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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    Default Re: Fire Egress

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Being as you put an end to the ifs (by including your own ifs) - at 32 " high ... that fence is not even a guardrail ... not high enough to be a guardrail.


    That fence is a vertical extension of the well.

    That fence may have also been intended to be a guardrail, but (by your own calculations) it is not.
    No I approximated a height of 32" inches seeing Mr. Adiar quoted 4' to which you concurred if my memory serves me well. Seeing there are 12-bed courses it could easily meet R311.7.7.1

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Someone must not have slept at a Holiday Inn recently enough ...

    Robert, think about what you said and about how I described the fence opening.

    Here's a clue - a release allows the fence to fall away from the well.

    Okay, now push on the fence from the other side (standing on grade looking into the well) ... you can push as hard as the fence was designed to resist ... and all you are doing is pushing the fence tighter to its mountings.
    That would be commercial building. Sounds logical.

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    Default Re: Fire Egress

    Robert,

    You are bouncing all over and still no where near the target.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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    Default Re: Fire Egress

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Robert,

    You are bouncing all over and still no where near the target.
    1: Is it a fence of a guard rail?

    Either or, the height was an approximation and not an exact number, Jerry.

    I will review all your posts diligently and reply later.
    Thanks as always, Jerry.

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    Default Re: Fire Egress

    Quote Originally Posted by ROBERT YOUNG View Post
    1: Is it a fence of a guard rail?
    Does not matter with regard to escaping the EERO window well.

    ANYTHING installed which alters the height of the well affects the height of the ladder.

    That is really the ONLY thing that matters.

    Now, if the altered height of the well is constructed such that, in the case of a guardrail OR fence, there is an appropriate gate ... or ... the fence/guardrail 'falls down' - then the height of the well has not been altered ... which means that the height of the ladder is not affected.

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    Default Re: Fire Egress

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Does not matter with regard to escaping the EERO window well.

    ANYTHING installed which alters the height of the well affects the height of the ladder.

    That is really the ONLY thing that matters.

    Now, if the altered height of the well is constructed such that, in the case of a guardrail OR fence, there is an appropriate gate ... or ... the fence/guardrail 'falls down' - then the height of the well has not been altered ... which means that the height of the ladder is not affected.
    Let me review the EERO code in full to avoid bouncing around.
    Thanks as always Jerry.
    I do appreciate every discussion.

    Last edited by ROBERT YOUNG; 04-06-2016 at 08:52 PM.
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    Default Re: Fire Egress

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Roshak View Post
    This home was remodeled in 2012. A basement bedroom was added and the photo's show the exterior egress.
    I cannot find anything in the code beyond requiring a ladder. How is someone going to get safely over the railing?
    I was told that habitable spaces require two means of egress. I thought I checked this in the IRC, but it's simpler and lazier to just raise the question here, rather than recheck.


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