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  1. #1
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    Default Wind load on hinged doors.

    I need help with an issue I have never come across before.
    Wind load on hinged doors.

    During a Pre Acceptance Inspection I operated (2) hinged balcony doors.
    Reentering one hinged balcony door took more load/lateral force to open than another.
    I thought of wind load/force and what could happen.

    No locking mechanism on the exterior.
    The door should withstand lateral loading/forcing.
    door latch.JPG

    Scenario:
    20 story Commercial Residential building.
    15th story balcony doors closed not locked.
    Tall large buildings all around.

    1: West door required >< 20 pound of force. My approximate calculation.
    2: South balcony door required <2 pounds of force. My approximate calculation.
    You should sneeze and the door would open inward. Some standing, facing in any direction, on the opposite side of the door would be in for a surprise if/when the winds picked up.

    A: What code covers this?
    B: How would I approach a narrative.

    Much thanks for any reply.
    Even if you said, Robert, what are you talking about.

    Similar Threads:
    Last edited by ROBERT YOUNG; 09-10-2016 at 07:29 PM.
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  2. #2
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    Default Re: Wind mitigation ?

    You should sneeze and the door would open inward
    It would seem to me that the two most obvious issues are:

    --Not operating as designed or intended by the manufacturer
    --Improper installation of the door assembly, preventing the locking/latching mechanism from operating correctly.

    Not sure what the wind load requirements are in your area, but the building may need it's glazed openings to perform to a certain protocol or design spec (such as ASTM standards) by the manufacturer.

    Unless you're just curious, since you observed a deficiency, I'd keep it simple and to the point.

    Dom.


  3. #3
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    Default Re: Wind mitigation ?

    My suggestion - find out the door manufacturer and search out the technical specification/testing data. Manufacturers typically have this somewhere on their site such ratings as (wind, rain, thermal efficiency, etc).

    But certainly beyond your personal info, this goes beyond a normal SOP inspection expectation.


  4. #4
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    Default Re: Wind mitigation ?

    One door is harder to open than the other. Not uncommon if one is used primary used and the other is not. The seals may need a little lubrication. Unless one is out of square and dragging. Also those doors should have an adjustment function on hinges and threshold.

    Did you try to lift the handle of the door. Often that is the locking mechanism for those doors.

    If this is a condo, the association will have the specs on all aspects of the building including the original doors. If they are not the original doors they still would have to get approval through the condo association (or what ever they call it in the northern latitudes) to be installed. Typically meeting all of the original building specifications which should be on file..


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    Default Re: Wind mitigation ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dom D'Agostino View Post
    It would seem to me that the two most obvious issues are:

    --Not operating as designed or intended by the manufacturer
    --Improper installation of the door assembly, preventing the locking/latching mechanism from operating correctly............................

    Dom.
    Not to be a stick in the mud, but... The manor in which you state the issue , in definitive terms, makes one think you know the Manufacture and have their installation instructions and design criteria available. Which you don't.

    Better wording would be that the door on the west side balcony sticks and is more difficult to open than the other door on the east side of balcony.


  6. #6
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    Default Re: Wind mitigation ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Garry Sorrells View Post
    One door is harder to open than the other. Not uncommon if one is used primary used and the other is not. The seals may need a little lubrication. Unless one is out of square and dragging. Also those doors should have an adjustment function on hinges and threshold.

    Did you try to lift the handle of the door. Often that is the locking mechanism for those doors.

    If this is a condo, the association will have the specs on all aspects of the building including the original doors. If they are not the original doors they still would have to get approval through the condo association (or what ever they call it in the northern latitudes) to be installed. Typically meeting all of the original building specifications which should be on file..
    Thanks for the reply, Garry.

    The balcony is in a high rise condo.
    The balcony doors are meant to require force/loading to open them when you go onto the balcony and close the door behind you.
    The door has two settings when they are closed.
    Locked or set in a closed position.

    Casement door hardware.

    casement door hardware.JPG

    Look at the protruding cam at the top.

    1: When the door is locked and can not open.

    2: In the closed position a 3 inch half cam is loaded into a pocked directly opposite the cam at the handle position on the frame.
    See in the picture.

    The cam is on a rod loaded with xx pounds of force.
    The cam is forced into a metal seat.
    Please excuse my description. I am just trying to describe what I remember or thought I saw.

    1: The west facing door that takes about twenty pounds of force to open is normal to me.

    2: The south door requires two pounds of force to open. Shear wind will blow that door open.
    They are heavy doors and should be.


    Hope that helps.
    They are calling the installer to see if there is an issue.

    Is there are code?

    Robert Young's Montreal Home Inspection Services Inc.
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  7. #7
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    Default Re: Wind mitigation ?

    Fenestration ratings.

    The 2012 BC Building Code introduced new requirements for manufactured and preassembled fenestration products to conform to both:
    While fenestration industry associations were involved in developing the model National Building Code and the relevant standards, the Office of Housing and Construction Standards has noted that industry has found the new regime more challenging than anticipated since it came into effect in December 2013.

    Codes & Standards | Fenestration Review

    I will try to post more when I have time.

    Thank you, everyone, for keeping the thread going.
    It helped me look for information.
    Hope it helps more HI's.

    Robert Young's Montreal Home Inspection Services Inc.
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  8. #8
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    Default Re: Wind mitigation ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Claude Lawrenson View Post
    My suggestion - find out the door manufacturer and search out the technical specification/testing data. Manufacturers typically have this somewhere on their site such ratings as (wind, rain, thermal efficiency, etc).

    But certainly beyond your personal info, this goes beyond a normal SOP inspection expectation.
    Please explain how Claude?
    SOP is a minimum inspection standard.
    I have not read one sop that says, do not do more within the required elements you inspect.

    Doors and door frames and hardware have defects and deficiencies.

    Looking forward to your reply.

    Robert Young's Montreal Home Inspection Services Inc.
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  9. #9
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    Default Re: Wind mitigation ?

    Quote Originally Posted by ROBERT YOUNG View Post
    Please explain how Claude?
    SOP is a minimum inspection standard.
    I have not read one sop that says, do not do more within the required elements you inspect.

    Doors and door frames and hardware have defects and deficiencies.

    Looking forward to your reply.
    Robert that was not my point.

    Do you report every manufacturers design data in order to determine a "significant" defect or deficiency?

    My exact point is it only serves as a reference point called - "further investigation" required or recommended.


  10. #10
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    Default Re: Wind mitigation ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Claude Lawrenson View Post
    Robert that was not my point.

    Do you report every manufacturers design data in order to determine a "significant" defect or deficiency?

    My exact point is it only serves as a reference point called - "further investigation" required or recommended.
    So very sorry.
    Pardon me.

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  11. #11
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    Default Re: Wind mitigation ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Claude Lawrenson View Post
    Robert that was not my point.

    Do you report every manufacturers design data in order to determine a "significant" defect or deficiency?

    My exact point is it only serves as a reference point called - "further investigation" required or recommended.
    Claude, I am not pointing out manufacturing flaws.

    If you open a double hung window and it drops not having lateral tension or a counter balance to neutralize the weight, you report it.

    As for SOP, it is not overstepping sop.

    Again, please tell me how.

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  12. #12
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    Default Re: Wind mitigation ?

    Quote Originally Posted by ROBERT YOUNG View Post
    Claude, I am not pointing out manufacturing flaws.

    If you open a double hung window and it drops not having lateral tension or a counter balance to neutralize the weight, you report it.

    As for SOP, it is not overstepping sop.

    Again, please tell me how.
    Robert certainly I was not there to observe or to witness what you encountered. All I can use is did I at least satisfy my "duties" to at least satisfy the SOP.

    From another perspective one can also research into the "building science" regarding "wind and air pressure" on high rise building structures. Once again, in my opinion, typically going beyond the traditional home inspection SOP.


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    Default Re: Wind mitigation ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Claude Lawrenson View Post
    Robert certainly I was not there to observe or to witness what you encountered. All I can use is did I at least satisfy my "duties" to at least satisfy the SOP.

    From another perspective one can also research into the "building science" regarding "wind and air pressure" on high rise building structures. Once again, in my opinion, typically going beyond the traditional home inspection SOP.
    Duties of the inspector.
    I concur. They must not cross certain lines nor must they be vague.

    What excites me still, the discovery then researching an understanding of a defect or deficiency that may impact health or safety.
    Condition is relatively covered in maximum or minimum SOP.
    I hope you feel the same.

    You are correct about how to narrate said findings but, I feel I must do more to insure I can understand what I am observing, reporting which allows my clients, or the vendor in this case, to have a meaning understanding of what I reported.

    Good day.
    Keep well.

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  14. #14
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    Default Re: Wind mitigation ?

    Robert,

    From your description and the photo of that latch set, I would change your terminology from 'two positions, set and locked' to 'two positions, latched and locked'.

    Starting with terminology change, your description indicates to me:
    a) that one door is latching but the other door is not
    b) that one door is binding up in its frame/jambs and the other door is not

    When a door closes, there should be some type of latching mechanism which holds the door closed, and this is shown in the photo you attached as being done by the top latch bolt.

    When the door is closed, there is (for exterior doors) some type of locking mechanism which locks the door so it cannot be opened from outside. While this may not seem to be necessary on the 15th floor, I find it hard to imagine any contractor installing an exterior door to a balcony which does not have a means of locking the door closed. The locking mechanism is shown in that photo as the lower deadbolt type bolt.

    There are other explanations too, but you would have picked this one up while operating the door: the latch bolt is designed with a sloping side (usually rounded, but not always) which causes the latch bolt to be pushed into the latch assembly as the door is closed, then to self-extend into the latch receiving hole and strike plate in the jamb when the door is closed.

    If the latch bolt is installed 'backward', the handle would need to be operated to retract the latch bolt when the door is closed, and (presuming the door is not binding in its jambs) pressure on the outside will cause the latch bolt to retract and allow the door to be pushed open without operating the latch handle. Just a thought, but you would have noticed the need to operate the latch handle in order to close the door.

    From inside, a tug on the handle would pull the door open.

    I have seen some doors which did not have a latching mechanism with the locking mechanism, they were held in place by spring-loaded rollers in the top and bottom of the doors. These spring loaded rollers acted as latching bolts when closed, except that a good tug (or push) would open the doors. I didn't like the setup, but I wasn't buying those high end houses and I wasn't the one paying for those high end doors ... I did, however, suspect that if my clients had the sense to make the money to buy a $20 million house that they had the sense to decide if they liked those latches - so I showed the latches to them and explained what those latches did ... and did not do - my clients did not like those latches either (I found out that their designer had specified those latches "because of the way the handle was styled").

    Designers, on the other hand, seem to lack that feature known as "common sense".

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  15. #15
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    Default Re: Wind mitigation ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Robert,

    From your description and the photo of that latch set, I would change your terminology from 'two positions, set and locked' to 'two positions, latched and locked'.
    I concur.
    Much needed to catch up on fenestration's.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Starting with terminology change, your description indicates to me:
    a) that one door is latching but the other door is not
    b) that one door is binding up in its frame/jambs and the other door is not

    When a door closes, there should be some type of latching mechanism which holds the door closed, and this is shown in the photo you attached as being done by the top latch bolt.

    When the door is closed, there is (for exterior doors) some type of locking mechanism which locks the door so it cannot be opened from outside. While this may not seem to be necessary on the 15th floor, I find it hard to imagine any contractor installing an exterior door to a balcony which does not have a means of locking the door closed. The locking mechanism is shown in that photo as the lower deadbolt type bolt.
    Thanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    There are other explanations too, but you would have picked this one up while operating the door: the latch bolt is designed with a sloping side (usually rounded, but not always) which causes the latch bolt to be pushed into the latch assembly as the door is closed, then to self-extend into the latch receiving hole and strike plate in the jamb when the door is closed.

    If the latch bolt is installed 'backward', the handle would need to be operated to retract the latch bolt when the door is closed, and (presuming the door is not binding in its jambs) pressure on the outside will cause the latch bolt to retract and allow the door to be pushed open without operating the latch handle. Just a thought, but you would have noticed the need to operate the latch handle in order to close the door.
    I can narrate defects for typical doors and windows but this is not typical.
    New territory to discover.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    From inside, a tug on the handle would pull the door open.

    I have seen some doors which did not have a latching mechanism with the locking mechanism, they were held in place by spring-loaded rollers in the top and bottom of the doors. These spring loaded rollers acted as latching bolts when closed, except that a good tug (or push) would open the doors. I didn't like the setup, but I wasn't buying those high end houses and I wasn't the one paying for those high end doors ... I did, however, suspect that if my clients had the sense to make the money to buy a $20 million house that they had the sense to decide if they liked those latches - so I showed the latches to them and explained what those latches did ... and did not do - my clients did not like those latches either (I found out that their designer had specified those latches "because of the way the handle was styled").

    Designers, on the other hand, seem to lack that feature known as "common sense".
    New designs appear faster than building go up it seems.
    New global economy.

    Thanks.
    Much appreciate.
    Anyone ever tell you your the King Mate?

    Robert Young's Montreal Home Inspection Services Inc.
    Call (514) 489-1887 or (514) 441-3732
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  16. #16
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    Default Re: Wind mitigation ?

    Quote Originally Posted by ROBERT YOUNG View Post
    Anyone ever tell you your the King Mate?
    Not and live to tell about it.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  17. #17
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    Default Re: Wind mitigation ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Not and live to tell about it.


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