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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
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    Chicago
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    Default Rim Joist Question

    Guys,

    I came across this today on a new construction project. The balcony is cantilevered to the house. It's my belief that the opposite joist ends should be attached to the rim joist with joist hangers, not just toe-nailed. The builder said that it didn't have to be because the balcony is cantilevered and not attached with a ledger board. Who's right???

    Thanks,

    Sean

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  2. #2
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
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    Default Re: Rim Joist Question

    Joist hangers would not do much for a cantilever. I would say the builder is right. However, there are other problems that you are likely to encounter with a cantilever, such as moisture intrusion where the joists erupt from the building envelope.

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  3. #3
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    Default Re: Rim Joist Question

    Hangers intstalled at the outer edge in the conventional manner would do little. Assuming the joists are cantilevered, there's a bigger risk of the rim joist and railing slipping towards the ground (or pulling away from the joists' outer edges) than the joists falling towards the ground (assuming a proper cantilever proportion). In other words, the joists are actually holding up the rim joist more so than the other way around.

    Maybe it's just the picture but I can't see the toenail connection. It looks more like an end grain nailing (through the rim joist into the end grain of the joists). I see them done like this frequently but am not a fan. Some 90 degree brackets between the inside of the rim joist to the edges of the joists are nice. When I've built things like this before I typically put at least one screw to hold things together and, of course, nails to hold things from falling towards the ground.


  4. #4
    Join Date
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    Default Re: Rim Joist Question

    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Fellman View Post
    In other words, the joists are actually holding up the rim joist more so than the other way around.
    Matt if almost 100% correct ... except that the rim joist 'are not holding up' the floor joists in any way. (Not unless that is 'structural air' which is attached to the rim joists.) The floor joists are entirely holding up the rim joists.

    Basically all the rim joists are doing is acting as continuous blocking, keeping the joist from rotating (and provided maintained spacing of the floor joists until the floor boards went down).

    As Gunnar said, check that flashing out at the house real good, that is the water entry point.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  5. #5
    Lewis Capaul's Avatar
    Lewis Capaul Guest

    Default Re: Rim Joist Question

    Quote Originally Posted by Sean Bacon View Post
    Guys,

    I came across this today on a new construction project. The balcony is cantilevered to the house. It's my belief that the opposite joist ends should be attached to the rim joist with joist hangers, not just toe-nailed. The builder said that it didn't have to be because the balcony is cantilevered and not attached with a ledger board. Who's right???

    Thanks,

    Sean
    Here's a pretty good guide to Deck construction, it has some ggod tables and info. With just a quick read I found this "Remember that the ends of the joists will need to be properly supported. If they are running between the ledger and a beam, they will need joist hangers on both ends"

    I'm not sure what you mean by "cantilevered to the house", are the deck joists continuations of the house's floor joists, in which case they should be doubled, or is the deck cantilevered over a support beam, and the deck attached to the house by a ledger?

    .http://buildingcodes.jocogov.org/doc...eck%20Book.pdf


  6. #6
    Join Date
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    Default Re: Rim Joist Question

    That's a nice presentation on the link. I picture what he's talking about as a continuation of the floor joists from inside all of the way to the end of the balcony. Most of us have seen this pretty often on a small balcony. I was not aware that the joists need to be doubled, and they usually aren't in my area. There are limitations on how far out you can go on a balcony, which we discussed at length a long time ago. I asked the architect that used to design for the projects I was framing, and he said there are multiple variables involved in the allowable span.

    Jim Robinson
    New Mexico, USA

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Rim Joist Question

    In the link Lewis provided was this at Handrail geometry:

    "A 2x2 complies with the code requirements for a handrail if it runs continuous the full length of the stairs and the ends are returned."

    Then it shows a 2x2 with the corners sanded or routed down to a radius for safe grasping.

    A 2x2 is actually 1-1/2" by 1-1/2", so it is 6" around its perimeter, which is, as it says, within the allowed 4" minimum and 6-1/4" maximum perimeter, however, ...

    Once the corners are rounded as shown, the perimeter will actually exceed the allowable 6-1/4" (I've seen it done and measured them). Now, I guess if the corners were not radiused for safety, that might meet the perimeter requirements, but that may also not be safe, so hit the corners with a belt sander ... wait, you have now radiused the corners ... but maybe not too much ...

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  8. #8
    Lewis Capaul's Avatar
    Lewis Capaul Guest

    Default Re: Rim Joist Question

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    In the link Lewis provided was this at Handrail geometry:

    "A 2x2 complies with the code requirements for a handrail if it runs continuous the full length of the stairs and the ends are returned."

    Then it shows a 2x2 with the corners sanded or routed down to a radius for safe grasping.

    A 2x2 is actually 1-1/2" by 1-1/2", so it is 6" around its perimeter, which is, as it says, within the allowed 4" minimum and 6-1/4" maximum perimeter, however, ...

    Once the corners are rounded as shown, the perimeter will actually exceed the allowable 6-1/4" (I've seen it done and measured them). Now, I guess if the corners were not radiused for safety, that might meet the perimeter requirements, but that may also not be safe, so hit the corners with a belt sander ... wait, you have now radiused the corners ... but maybe not too much ...
    You've lost me Jerry, if I remove material from a 2 X 2 (1.5 X 1.5) byeasing its corners, wouldn't the perimeter (circumference) of the 2 X 2 be reduced, not increased. In fact if you were to "ease" the corner's on the 2 X 2 until it was circular while maintaining the 1.5" diameter, the circumfernce would be reduce from 6" to approximately 4.5" to 4.75".


  9. #9
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    Default Re: Rim Joist Question

    Quote Originally Posted by Lewis Capaul View Post
    You've lost me Jerry, if I remove material from a 2 X 2 (1.5 X 1.5) byeasing its corners, wouldn't the perimeter (circumference) of the 2 X 2 be reduced, not increased.
    Yes, I lost myself there too.

    Seems as though I was typing what I was remembering without doing the math on what I was typing.

    I was thinking of some I measured, but apparently they were slightly larger than 2x2, because when I wrapped a string around them, then measured the length of the string, it exceeded the maximum allowable dimension. The supt. and myself checked this several times, each time getting the same measurement.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  10. #10
    Lewis Capaul's Avatar
    Lewis Capaul Guest

    Default Re: Rim Joist Question

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Yes, I lost myself there too.

    Seems as though I was typing what I was remembering without doing the math on what I was typing.

    I was thinking of some I measured, but apparently they were slightly larger than 2x2, because when I wrapped a string around them, then measured the length of the string, it exceeded the maximum allowable dimension. The supt. and myself checked this several times, each time getting the same measurement.

    Around here a hand rail on deck stairs is a rarity, most just use the 2 X 4 top rail as a handrail, I just note in my report that it should be a proper handrail and that that absence of one does not meet today's accepted standards.

    Sometimes our fingers type things on their own without much connection to the brain, I though maybe you'd found a way to make a 4 X 4 out of a 2 X 2, which at todays lumber prices would be great []


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