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  1. #1
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    Default Paper cover of poured footing

    Do you guys call the paper form if its still present on a deck pier? If so, why? WBO and the like...?

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  2. #2
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    Default Re: Paper cover of poured footing

    Aside from it being an indication of NON PRO work it is a Termite attractant. It will also hold moisture inside the concrete in colder months possibly causing breakage from the moisture freezing and expanding.


  3. #3
    Kevin Barre's Avatar
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    Default Re: Paper cover of poured footing

    Sorry, but I have to disagree. If you are talking about a form such as Sonotube, you usually don't have to remove the form. Below grade sections can remain in place. Above grade sections should be removed for cosmetic reasons. Freeze/ thaw damage is not as issue below grade...the form will absorb water and split apart if it freezes below grade, not the concrete. (Assuming the concrete was properly compacted, etc.)

    Last edited by Kevin Barre; 03-07-2008 at 07:58 PM.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Paper cover of poured footing

    What I meant was the scection left ABOVE grade as this is what the question related to. Anything that can allow water Not to evaporate and dry off properly can cause damage to the concrete. Look at old pourous brick used on chimneys, how it explodes.
    Personally though I would be more concerned with the Termite access problem. Anywhere they can get up to wood without being seen is a problem.
    And yes I know they don't like PT lumber but it generally leads into the home.
    So bottom line. It should be removed. ABOVE grade


  5. #5
    Aaron Miller's Avatar
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    Default Re: Paper cover of poured footing

    In Texas you must remove all form materials from concrete for a clear WDI report, at least if I'm the one writing that report. It represents both a conducive condition and prevents a thorough visual inspection.

    Aaron


  6. #6
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    Default Re: Paper cover of poured footing

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Barre View Post
    Sorry, but I have to disagree. If you are talking about a form such as Sonotube, you usually don't have to remove the form. Below grade sections can remain in place. Above grade sections should be removed for cosmetic reasons.

    From the 2006 IRC.
    - R408.5 Removal of debris.
    The under-floor grade shall be cleaned of all vegetation and organic material. All wood forms used for placing concrete shall be removed before a building is occupied or used for any purpose. All construction materials shall be removed before a building is occupied or used for any purpose.



    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  7. #7
    Kevin Barre's Avatar
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    Default Re: Paper cover of poured footing

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    From the 2006 IRC.
    - R408.5 Removal of debris.
    The under-floor grade shall be cleaned of all vegetation and organic material. All wood forms used for placing concrete shall be removed before a building is occupied or used for any purpose. All construction materials shall be removed before a building is occupied or used for any purpose.

    This is an exposed deck pier we're talking about--not in a crawlspace under the home. Seems to me it's decidedly a stretch to be applying "under floor" requirements in this case.

    As for termites, they would have to make it vertically whatever distance it is up to the floor joists, and then horizontally probably a minimum of 8 feet or so to get to the house itself. Across pressure treated wood. Without being seen. Doesn't seem likely to me.

    Properly compacted concrete in a form should have smooth sides that are not likely to absorb much water, and would not be likely to suffer from freeze damage. Having soft, porous brick with raked mortar joints on a chimney is a different matter.

    I'm not saying don't remove the forms. In fact, I did say they should be removed for cosmetic reasons. However, I would not make a big deal out of possible consequences if they are not removed.

    Last edited by Kevin Barre; 03-09-2008 at 08:17 AM.

  8. #8
    Aaron Miller's Avatar
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    Default Re: Paper cover of poured footing

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Barre View Post
    This is an exposed deck pier we're talking about--not in a crawlspace under the home. Seems to me it's decidedly a stretch to be applying "under floor" requirements in this case.
    Maybe, but consider that all other floor-related code specifications apply to decks, such as load limits, railings, steps, et al. And, obviously you walk upon a deck. The code specifically addresses the need to treat other walked-upon surfaces exactly like interior floors, e.g. attic service floors. Seems that under-floor would be applicable for under-deck as well without much elasticity of though at all

    Aaron


  9. #9
    Kevin Barre's Avatar
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    Default Re: Paper cover of poured footing

    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron Miller View Post
    Maybe, but consider that all other floor-related code specifications apply to decks, such as load limits, railings, steps, et al. And, obviously you walk upon a deck. The code specifically addresses the need to treat other walked-upon surfaces exactly like interior floors, e.g. attic service floors. Seems that under-floor would be applicable for under-deck as well without much elasticity of though at all

    Aaron
    I'm looking at the intent of the code. I can see applying load requirements since the deck IS a space upon which items will be placed and which people will occupy. The requirement to remove form boards and the like in the crawlspace is to remove termite food -- in an area that is not easily seen, no less. Makes sense. But under a deck, built with treated lumber, l have a hard time worrying about termites. Taken to the logical conclusion, if you must remove all "vegetation and organic material" under a deck, you need to remove every twig and leaf that collects there.


  10. #10
    Aaron Miller's Avatar
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    Default Re: Paper cover of poured footing

    The intent of the code is to protect life, limb and property. You assume the lumber to be treated on all decks? You assume that termites cannot eat treated lumber? You assume that debris around wooden structures is not a conducive condition in terms of wood-destroying insects? You assume that cellulose-based form materials do not attract termites under deck as they do under houses?

    You assume more than I am prepared to.

    Aaron


  11. #11
    Kevin Barre's Avatar
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    Default Re: Paper cover of poured footing

    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron Miller View Post
    The intent of the code is to protect life, limb and property. You assume the lumber to be treated on all decks? You assume that termites cannot eat treated lumber? You assume that debris around wooden structures is not a conducive condition in terms of wood-destroying insects? You assume that cellulose-based form materials do not attract termites under deck as they do under houses?

    You assume more than I am prepared to.

    Aaron
    It appears to me that you are assuming far more than I am; I never made those statements, nor do I believe them all. However, I have never seen termites attack above grade components of a deck constructed with the PROPER GRADE of treated lumber. Then again, I've only been doing this 9 years and I haven't seen it all. And if your deck isn't made of lumber resistant to WDI activity, you have potentially bigger problems that can't be solved by removing a little cardboard that may exist. And if this is the case, you better be monitoring it for activity since it's all but a given that it will occur.

    I certainly never said that debris around structures was not conducive to WDI activity; in fact, I tell folks to move firewood stacks away from their foundations all the time. I also frequently write up old batter boards and debris in crawlspaces. Unfortunately, most homes around here are not on concrete slabs so I write this up a lot.

    In simple terms, it's a matter of both visibility and relative risk in my opinion. If you have a post sitting on an above grade poured concrete pier of what should be a significantly larger diameter, (oops, there I go making an assumption) there will be some exposed concrete around the base of the post. Termites would have to cross this exposed area to get to any wood, and they would have to do this whether the form is still in place or not. In an open environment, I find it hard to believe that they could do this without being seen. So even if the form lets them get to the top of the pier unobserved, they face the same obstacle of getting from there to the wood. Again, that is the same whether there is a form in place or not. So if there is no form in place above grade, and they build tunnels up the outside of the pier -- and we both know they are perfectly capable of doing this -- they could still get into the deck just the same if no one is watching for them.

    Ultimately, I don't see how a form makes much difference. If you are vigilant regarding termites they will be visible at a point before they get into the wood -- regardless of exactly how they get to the top of the pier. If you aren't paying attention you stand the chance of problems with or without forms since they can come up the outside of the pier.


  12. #12
    Aaron Miller's Avatar
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    Default Re: Paper cover of poured footing

    Kevin:

    Actually, and not to put too fine a point on things, you simply did not really read my post. They were questions. No assumptions were made else they would not have been posited in the interrogative form. So, at the risk of repeating myself. You assume more than I am willing to.

    I have seen termites living and thriving in .60 CCA treated yellow pine (intended for below grade application) below grade. I've also seen them in .40 CCA lumber in ground contact and .25 CCA materials above grade. All of these materials were properly installed according to their solution percentage and yet, termites. Go figure.

    Otherwise we are in agreement, mostly, at least as far as decks are concerned.

    Aaron


  13. #13
    MaMa Mount's Avatar
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    Default Re: Paper cover of poured footing

    Sounds like he just does not want to accept the fact that termites could be a issue.

    MaMa


  14. #14
    Aaron Miller's Avatar
    Aaron Miller Guest

    Default Re: Paper cover of poured footing

    Arkansas may be too boring, even for termites? I don't know, I've only been to Eureka Springs. I was too busy drinking wine and getting massages to notice . . .

    Aaron


  15. #15
    Join Date
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    Default Re: Paper cover of poured footing

    From the 2003 IRC Commentary (and why the number is different).
    - R408.4 Removal of debris.
    The under-floor grade shall be cleaned of all vegetation and organic material. All wood forms used for placing concrete shall be removed before a building is occupied or used for any purpose. All construction materials shall be removed before a building is occupied or used for any purpose.

    - 
    Vegetation, stumps, roots, and other matter left in an excavation around a building are major causes of termite infestation and moisture problems. As such material decays, the ground settles, negating the original drainage plan. Even before decay, the material provides pockets for water accumulation, which can have subsequent destructive impact on the structure. To eliminate a natural attraction to termites, insects, or animals, all vegetation and organic material must be cleared.

    What is cardboard made from?



    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  16. #16
    Aaron Miller's Avatar
    Aaron Miller Guest

    Default Re: Paper cover of poured footing

    What is cardboard made from?


    Termite chow? Amalgamated vegetable fibers composed of cellulose subsequently held together by hydrogen bonding? Recyled new homes?





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