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  1. #1
    Jerome W. Young's Avatar
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    Default poured patio flush with slab

    How far below the slab should this patio be? It is flush with it now. it does have alittle pitch to it.

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  2. #2
    David Banks's Avatar
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    Default Re: poured patio flush with slab

    Preferable to have a step down so you do not get water issues. If I were you I would let people know the potential problem with water.


  3. #3
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    Default Re: poured patio flush with slab

    Needs to be 4" down to provide a proper termite inspection area - unless it is masonry construction (not frame), *and*, the soil below the slab has been treated for termites.

    From the 2004 Florida Residential Code. (underlining is mine)
    - SECTION 704
    - - INSPECTION FOR TERMITES
    - - - In order to provide for inspection for termite infestation, clearance between exterior wall coverings and final earth grade on the exterior of a building shall not be less than 6 inches (152 mm).
    - - - - Exceptions:
    - - - - - 1. Paint or decorative cementitious finish less than 5/8 inch (17.1 mm) thick adhered directly to the masonry foundation sidewall.
    - - - - - 2. Access or vehicle ramps which rise to the interior finish floor elevation for the width of such ramps only.
    - - - - - 3. A 4-inch (102 mm) inspection space above patio and garage slabs and entry areas.
    - - - - - 4. If the patio has been soil treated for termites, the finish elevation may match the building interior finish floor elevations on masonry construction only.
    - - - - - 5. Masonry veneers.

    Last edited by Jerry Peck; 04-29-2008 at 06:12 AM. Reason: originally stated FBC and that is from the FRC
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  4. #4
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    Default Re: poured patio flush with slab

    sure don't look like 2" clearance of the stucco siding above the concrete patio? (if that's a spider at the door entry he/she is sure a big en!)

    Jerry McCarthy
    Building Code/ Construction Consultant

  5. #5
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    Default Re: poured patio flush with slab

    Isnt that a lanai? Never mind no one else except for the South Floridians will get it.

    Paul Kondzich
    Ft. Myers, FL.

  6. #6
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    Default Re: poured patio flush with slab

    Looks to me like the door opens outward. If so, I thought there cannot be any difference in height.

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  7. #7
    Jerome W. Young's Avatar
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    Default Re: poured patio flush with slab

    i think that applies to opening to a stairway?


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    Cool Re: poured patio flush with slab

    Not the best approach to have similar elevations between interiors and exteriors, but hopefully there is a roof overhead. If there is no sign of water penetration into the home then I wouldn't make a big deal out of it.

    RJDalga
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  9. #9
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    Default Re: poured patio flush with slab

    Quote Originally Posted by Gunnar Alquist View Post
    Looks to me like the door opens outward. If so, I thought there cannot be any difference in height.
    There is allowed to be 1-1/2" drop if the door swings out in the IRC.

    From the 2006 IRC. (underlining is mine)

    - R311.4.3 Landings at doors. There shall be a floor or landing on each side of each exterior door. The floor or landing at the exterior door shall not be more than 1.5 inches (38 mm) lower than the top of the threshold. The landing shall be permitted to have a slope not to exceed 0.25 unit vertical in 12 units horizontal (2-percent).
    - - Exceptions:
    - - - 1. Where a stairway of two or fewer risers is located on the exterior side of a door, other than the required exit door, a landing is not required for the exterior side of the door provided the door, other than an exterior storm or screen door does not swing over the stairway.
    - - - 2. The exterior landing at an exterior doorway shall not be more than 73/4 inches (196 mm) below the top of the threshold, provided the door, other than an exterior storm or screen door does not swing over the landing.
    - - - 3. The height of floors at exterior doors other than the exit door required by Section R311.4.1 shall not be more than 73/4 inches (186 mm) lower than the top of the threshold.
    - - The width of each landing shall not be less than the door served. Every landing shall have a minimum dimension of 36 inches (914 mm) measured in the direction of travel.

    The 2004 FRC is stated similarly but different. (underlining is mine)
    - R311.4.3 Landings at doors.
    - - There shall be a floor or landing on each side of each exterior door.
    - - - Exception: Where a stairway of two or fewer risers is located on the exterior side of a door, other than the required exit door, a landing is not required for the exterior side of the door.
    - - The floor or landing at the exit door required by Section R311.4.1 shall not be more than 1.5 inches (38 mm) lower than the top of the threshold. The floor or landing at exterior doors other than the exit door required by Section R311.4.1 shall not be required to comply with this requirement but shall have a rise no greater than that permitted in Section R311.5.3. (Jerry's note: R311.5.3 is "Stair treads and risers.", meaning that the height at doors 'other than the required exit door' is allowed to be 7-3/4" like a riser.)
    - - - Exception: The landing at an exterior doorway shall not be more than 7¾ inches (196 mm) below the top of the threshold, provided the door, other than an exterior storm or screen door does not swing over the landing. (Jerry's note: This is an exception to the 1-1/2", however, that has already been excepted to 7-3/4" above, so is this an exception to an exception?)
    - - The width of each landing shall not be less than the door served. Every landing shall have a minimum dimension of 36 inches (914 mm) measured in the direction of travel.

    The IRC makes no reference to 'required door', the FRC does. In Florida, we are also quite concerned about water intrusion (due to those winds which seem to blow across Florida on occasion), thus the allowable height difference, and, we are concerned about termites as we are in a rather high termite pressure area - so being able to inspect for them is necessary.
    Jerome, how old is that house? Frame or masonry?


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  10. #10

    Default Re: poured patio flush with slab

    I did a "moisture intrusion" inspection a while back under my Thermal Infrared Inspector" hat, not as an HI. It had much the same condition; patio a couple of inches below the edge of the slab but then some genius installed Saltillo pavers (big tiles) on top and brought it right up even with the edge. they were wondering why they had to replace their hardwood twice and IT was now warped too. (some real rocket scientists here!) A few thermal pics and a little moisture meter action soon confirmed my suspicion that water was wicking under the sole plate of the exterior wall. The MM readings were pretty consistent along the rear of the house to half way across the house, rear to front.
    It was a combination of things. Little or no "grade away", clogged area drain, no weep screed and damaged gutter dumping excess water 12" from the edge of the house.
    Expensive lesson....3 damaged hardwood floors, my inspection and now the cost of correction.
    Dana

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  11. #11
    Jerome W. Young's Avatar
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    Default Re: poured patio flush with slab

    2004, masonry

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  12. #12
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    Default Re: poured patio flush with slab

    Jerome,

    What is the Trip Hazard protruding from the slab?

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  13. #13
    Jerome W. Young's Avatar
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    Default Re: poured patio flush with slab

    its some sort of extension cord run through a raceway. it was duely noted as a homeowner installation and WRONG! it was a good picture for my collection


  14. #14
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    Default Re: poured patio flush with slab

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerome W. Young View Post
    its some sort of extension cord run through a raceway. it was duely noted as a homeowner installation and WRONG! it was a good picture for my collection
    Thanks,

    First One I've seen installed in that manner.

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  15. #15
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    Default Re: poured patio flush with slab

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerome W. Young View Post
    its some sort of extension cord run through a raceway. it was duely noted as a homeowner installation
    Now you know who was responsible for screwing up that concrete work - the homeowner and whoever they hired.

    Being as it was built in 2004, the 2001 Florida Building Code with 2003 revisions was applicable (which is basically the same as the 2004 FRC).

    From the 2001 FBC. (see exceptions 3 and 4 below)
    - 1403.1.6 In order to provide for inspection for termite infestation, clearance between exterior wall coverings and final earth grade on the exterior of a building shall not be less than 6 inches (152 mm).
    - - EXCEPTIONS:
    - - - 1. Paint or decorative cementitious finish less than 5/8 inch (17.1 mm) thick adhered directly to the masonry foundation sidewall.
    - - - 2. Access or vehicle ramps which rise to the interior finish floor elevation for the width of such ramps only.
    - - - 3. A 4-inch (102 mm) inspection space above patio and garage slabs and entry areas.
    - - - 4. If the patio has been soil treated for termites, the finish elevation may match the building interior finish floor elevations on masonry construction only.
    - - - 5. Masonry veneers.

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    Default Re: poured patio flush with slab

    Jerry
    Are there any exceptions for those codes?
    I have seen a few homes and several apts that have no step at the doors. They were for wheelchair access, ADA compliance.

    ' correct a wise man and you gain a friend... correct a fool and he'll bloody your nose'.

  17. #17
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    Default Re: poured patio flush with slab

    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Cantrell View Post
    Are there any exceptions for those codes?
    I have seen a few homes and several apts that have no step at the doors. They were for wheelchair access, ADA compliance.
    Rick,

    First, that fits in with the first part:

    From the 2006 IRC. (underlining is mine)
    - R311.4.3 Landings at doors. There shall be a floor or landing on each side of each exterior door. The floor or landing at the exterior door shall not be more than 1.5 inches (38 mm) lower than the top of the threshold. The landing shall be permitted to have a slope not to exceed 0.25 unit vertical in 12 units horizontal (2-percent).

    Second, though, that is from the IRC and apartments, etc., are under the IBC.

    From the 2006 IBC. (underlining is mine)
    - 1008.1.4 Floor elevation.
    There shall be a floor or landing on each side of a door. Such floor or landing shall be at the same elevation on each side of the door. Landings shall be level except for exterior landings, which are permitted to have a slope not to exceed 0.25 unit vertical in 12 units horizontal (2-percent slope).

    - - Exceptions:
    - - - 1. Doors serving individual dwelling units in Groups R-2 and R-3 where the following apply:
    - - - - 1.1. A door is permitted to open at the top step of an interior flight of stairs, provided the door does not swing over the top step.
    - - - - 1.2. Screen doors and storm doors are permitted to swing over stairs or landings.
    - - - 2. Exterior doors as provided for in Section 1003.5, Exception 1, and Section 1018.2, which are not on an accessible route.
    - - - 3. In Group R-3 occupancies not required to be Accessible units, Type A units or Type B units, the landing at an exterior doorway shall not be more than 7.75 inches (197 mm) below the top of the threshold, provided the door, other than an exterior storm or screen door, does not swing over the landing.
    - - - 4. Variations in elevation due to differences in finish materials, but not more than 0.5 inch (12.7 mm).
    - - - 5. Exterior decks, patios or balconies that are part of Type B dwelling units, have impervious surfaces and that are not more than 4 inches (102 mm) below the finished floor level of the adjacent interior space of the dwelling unit.


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  18. #18
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    Default Re: poured patio flush with slab

    Jerome, I agree with these guys but the bigger issue to me is that the stucco type siding has no clearance from the patio!!! I'm not quoting code here but there should be at least 3 inches of clearance between siding and patio..


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    Default Re: poured patio flush with slab

    I don't know how to start a new thread so I thought I would latch on to this one.
    My agent is concerned about the presence of non-treated wood (1/4 pine) used as a spacer between the front porch patio and the mono-slab of the dwelling. Should I be concerned?


  20. #20
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    Default Re: poured patio flush with slab

    Uploading photos of wooden spacers.

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    Default Re: poured patio flush with slab

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Edwards View Post

    My agent is concerned about the presence of non-treated wood (1/4 pine) used as a spacer between the front porch patio and the mono-slab of the dwelling.

    Should I be concerned?
    .
    Yes.

    If the front porch is not enclosed it would be subject to water damage , rot and and a entry point into the dwelling for water.
    .
    No

    Correction ( Photos ) Expansion joint show between Two Concrete Pours .


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    Default Re: poured patio flush with slab

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Edwards View Post
    My agent is concerned about the presence of non-treated wood (1/4 pine) used as a spacer between the front porch patio and the mono-slab of the dwelling. Should I be concerned?

    "presence of non-treated wood"

    Yes, that should be removed ... *IF* it actually is "non-treated" wood.

    "If in doubt, yank it out."

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  23. #23
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    Default Re: poured patio flush with slab

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    "presence of non-treated wood"

    Yes, that should be removed ... *IF* it actually is "non-treated" wood.

    "If in doubt, yank it out."
    .
    Or Could be

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  24. #24
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    Default Re: poured patio flush with slab

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Needs to be 4" down to provide a proper termite inspection area - unless it is masonry construction (not frame), *and*, the soil below the slab has been treated for termites.

    From the 2004 Florida Residential Code. (underlining is mine)
    - SECTION 704
    - - INSPECTION FOR TERMITES
    - - - In order to provide for inspection for termite infestation, clearance between exterior wall coverings and final earth grade on the exterior of a building shall not be less than 6 inches (152 mm).
    - - - - Exceptions:
    - - - - - 1. Paint or decorative cementitious finish less than 5/8 inch (17.1 mm) thick adhered directly to the masonry foundation sidewall.
    - - - - - 2. Access or vehicle ramps which rise to the interior finish floor elevation for the width of such ramps only.
    - - - - - 3. A 4-inch (102 mm) inspection space above patio and garage slabs and entry areas.
    - - - - - 4. If the patio has been soil treated for termites, the finish elevation may match the building interior finish floor elevations on masonry construction only.
    - - - - - 5. Masonry veneers.
    Jerry,

    Based on your two quotes with the termite inspections (FRC) and R311.4.3 (IRC), which supersedes the other? I assume Florida wins. However, which is more important?

    Thanks
    Bruce

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  25. #25
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    Default Re: poured patio flush with slab

    Quote Originally Posted by JB Thompson View Post
    Jerry,

    Based on your two quotes with the termite inspections (FRC) and R311.4.3 (IRC), which supersedes the other? I assume Florida wins. However, which is more important?

    Thanks
    Bruce
    Bruce: In Tyler the IRC and the TDA's Structural Pest Control Service reign supreme. Flahdah and their precocious ways don't enter into the picture.

    Subterranean termites move more quickly through your sandy soil than they do through the thick clay muck that passes for soil that we have here in the D/FW area.

    Additionally, the cladding manufacturers have a say in this too. As was mentioned the stucco needs a 2" clearance to masonry at the bottom terminus. This not only allows for a proper termite inspection, it also allows air and light in between the patio and the weep screed so as not to downright invite the termites in. It also prevents the weep screed from rusting.


  26. #26
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    Default Re: poured patio flush with slab

    Quote Originally Posted by JB Thompson View Post
    Jerry,

    Based on your two quotes with the termite inspections (FRC) and R311.4.3 (IRC), which supersedes the other? I assume Florida wins. However, which is more important?

    Thanks
    Bruce

    Bruce,

    There really is no conflict.

    The Florida Residential Code is based on the IRC and has similar requirements and a similar exception.

    As long as the door does not swing out over the riser, the landing outside the required egress door is allowed to be as high as 7-3/4" below the top of the threshold (in both the IRC and the FRC), that riser serves as the termite inspection space.

    Thus both requirements are met and there is no conflict ... as long as the door does not swing out over the riser.

    If the door does swing out over the riser, then the exceptions to the following can be applied - from the 2004 Florida Building Code, Residential. (underlining is mine)
    - SECTION 704
    - - INSPECTION FOR TERMITES
    - - - In order to provide for inspection for termite infestation, clearance between exterior wall coverings and final earth grade on the exterior of a building shall not be less than 6 inches (152 mm).
    - - - - Exceptions:
    - - - - - 1. Paint or decorative cementitious finish less than 5/8 inch (17.1 mm) thick adhered directly to the masonry foundation sidewall.
    - - - - - 2. Access or vehicle ramps which rise to the interior finish floor elevation for the width of such ramps only.
    - - - - - 3. A 4-inch (102 mm) inspection space above patio and garage slabs and entry areas.
    - - - - - 4. If the patio has been soil treated for termites, the finish elevation may match the building interior finish floor elevations on masonry construction only.
    - - - - - 5. Masonry veneers.

    Note that exception 4. does NOT apply when monitoring stations are installed instead of soil pretreatment.

    Last edited by Jerry Peck; 04-06-2009 at 09:12 AM. Reason: added code reference
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  27. #27
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    Default Re: poured patio flush with slab

    Thanks for the replies.
    Just as I thought.


  28. #28
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    Default Re: poured patio flush with slab

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    "presence of non-treated wood"

    Yes, that should be removed ... *IF* it actually is "non-treated" wood.

    "If in doubt, yank it out."

    Treated wood becomes termite food over time. It has to come out as well. I have pulled many of x treated wood out of there and it has termites in it. The treating leaches out over time and becomes food for termites.


  29. #29
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    Default Re: poured patio flush with slab

    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Menelly View Post
    Treated wood becomes termite food over time. It has to come out as well. I have pulled many of x treated wood out of there and it has termites in it. The treating leaches out over time and becomes food for termites.

    Ted,

    It is quite possible that you are looking at treated wood which has not been treated for the use it was put to.

    There are different levels of treatment, exterior exposure not exposed to earth contact, exterior exposure exposed to earth contact but not buried, exterior exposure and direct buried in earth, exterior exposure and submerged (marine).

    If you take the normal everyday bargain basement "treated" wood and bury it, no, it is not intended for that use and it will not last in that use.

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  30. #30
    Ted Menelly's Avatar
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    Default Re: poured patio flush with slab

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Ted,

    It is quite possible that you are looking at treated wood which has not been treated for the use it was put to.

    There are different levels of treatment, exterior exposure not exposed to earth contact, exterior exposure exposed to earth contact but not buried, exterior exposure and direct buried in earth, exterior exposure and submerged (marine).

    If you take the normal everyday bargain basement "treated" wood and bury it, no, it is not intended for that use and it will not last in that use.

    I am quite familiar with all types of treated lumber but the reason they need to remove it is due to the fact no ones uses the good stuff and if it is between the foundation and a patio slab I am certainly not going to guess which one it is. They all need to come out and used tar impregnated fiber board. If I am at a home more than a few years old it is pretty likely to have been chewed on a bit.


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