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  1. #1
    Bruce King's Avatar
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    Default KD HT lumber vs PT lumber for deck

    I am finding lots of info about how HT (heat treated lumber) is required for packaging, pallets etc to prevent the spread of some WDO across the world but can not find anything concrete on whether or not it is suitable for a deck.

    I did find a post about how the PT label might be cut off the end of a board and the stamp that is left shows HT or kiln dried HT.

    Most of this new treated lumber looks untreated as compared to the old green stuff, I did learn that they add color to some of it to try and make it look more like treated. The label will show w/CE which means "with color enhancement".

    Any lumber experts out there that can confirm KD HT is ok for a new deck?

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    Default Re: KD HT lumber vs PT lumber for deck

    Hi Bruce,


    Most of this new treated lumber looks untreated as compared to the old green stuff
    It's only heated/ kiln dried to kill whatever is in the wood- I don't see where preservative chemicals are applied, so it does not appear that it should be used anywhere that treated/ decay resistant heart wood is called for.... (just a guess after looking it up really quick)-- don't consider this an expert opinion though...


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    Default Re: KD HT lumber vs PT lumber for deck

    Like Brandon, this is no expert opinion but I think PT and HT have two different goals. One is to prevent spreading insects throughout the world the other is to keep your deck from rotting.

    The spread of WDOs across geographical lines is actually a pretty big deal. For example, it's a big fine to transport firewood around from state to state. This gets talked about a lot in an RV forum I frequent.


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    Default Re: KD HT lumber vs PT lumber for deck

    Heat-Treated Pallets & Lumber Frequently Asked Questions

    Here's a link to a good FAQs page that explains the purpose of HT lumber.


  5. #5
    Bruce King's Avatar
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    Default Re: KD HT lumber vs PT lumber for deck

    Thanks for info guy's.

    Matt, which RV forum do you frequent? I like Rv.net, my wife reads it almost daily. We have a 27ft travel trailer that we use about 10 times a year.

    Bruce King, B.A. King Home Inspections, LLC
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    Default Re: KD HT lumber vs PT lumber for deck

    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce King View Post
    Matt, which RV forum do you frequent? I like Rv.net, my wife reads it almost daily. We have a 27ft travel trailer that we use about 10 times a year.
    I used to go there regularly too. Great RV forum.

    Right now we are between RVs, sold our 36 foot motor home and am shopping around for another ... not sure if we want larger or smaller, still just looking around.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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    Bruce King's Avatar
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    Default Re: KD HT lumber vs PT lumber for deck

    Deals are out there, my wife says a Tiffin is the best buy if you want another class A. Used Newmar's and Monaco's sell very well too. Many companies have gone under and left "orphans" which can be bought for a good price.
    Wonder how long it would take to inspect a diesel RV bus....... it took me about 20 hours to completely inspect a fairly simple TT after we bought it new, but that included some tightening and general staring at things and saying "why didn't they hold the screwdriver straight when they put in that screw?"


    Back to the original scheduled programming........
    Anyone ever see a deck builder retreat the ends of lumber after sawing it?

    This is from Code Acceptance & Requirements | Southern Pine Council™ | 1-504-443-4464

    Wood end-cut, notched, or bored at the jobsite must be treated in accordance with American Wood Protection Association Standard M4. Application of copper naphthenate solution having a minimum 2% metallic solution is specified.

    Bruce King, B.A. King Home Inspections, LLC
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    Default Re: KD HT lumber vs PT lumber for deck

    The page Bruce referenced as a .PDF, for anyone who want to archive it:

    Attached Files Attached Files
    Michael Thomas
    Paragon Property Services Inc., Chicago IL
    http://paragoninspects.com

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    Jerry Peck's Avatar
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    Default Re: KD HT lumber vs PT lumber for deck

    Here is another very important note for the section at the bottom of that page: Coatings for Surface Barrie Wood Protection

    "The barrier treatment is effective as long as the coating is not breached due to factors such as puncture, surface abrasion or splitting."

    The University of Florida did termite testing on wood treated with surface termite treatments, and, as stated in the statement above, that treatment works ... "as long as the coating is not breached due to factors such as" ... termites.

    The UF testing revealed that the first wave of termites, the termites which eat the surface treated wood (which was approximately 1/16" deep into the wood) did indeed die from the treated wood, and, if that exhausted the supply of termites eating the wood, that treatment would work, however, when tested under real-life conditions with more termites desiring to eat the wood, the other termites now had free and clear passage to the untreated interior wood.

    This was because the surface applied termite protection had been breached by the first termites. Thus leaving untreated wood exposed for all newcomers who stopped by for dinner after being out to a movie. Termite colonies do not contain only a very limited number of termites, thus surface treatments have only a very limited affect.

    Also note this part "is not breached due to factors such as puncture". Once the walls are framed up, the wood framing is surface treated, then ... the drywall is installed, then the baseboard, then door trim, etc., all of which leave behind "punctures" where the fasteners went into the wood, or skinned the wood and broke through the surface coating (such as where nails "miss" studs and gouge through down the side of the studs, ripping the surface coating open.

    Like monitoring stations, surface treatment is an approved method and is thus allowed, *I* have little faith in those allowed methods, however. I would say it is just my personal opinion except that many others also share that same opinion, making it a widespread opinion held by many.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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    Default Re: KD HT lumber vs PT lumber for deck

    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce King View Post
    Thanks for info guy's.

    Matt, which RV forum do you frequent? I like Rv.net, my wife reads it almost daily. We have a 27ft travel trailer that we use about 10 times a year.

    Yep, rv.net - it's a great place to learn about RVs - I have a Montana 5th wheel that I never seem to use enough to justify keeping it. Anyone interested? It's in great shape.... I'll even deliver to Florida for the right price JP


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    Default Re: KD HT lumber vs PT lumber for deck

    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce King View Post
    Anyone ever see a deck builder retreat the ends of lumber after sawing it?

    I've retreated and sealed cut ends on the framing (ledgers, posts, beams, and joists) but I typically don't do so on the decking itself. I know a couple of "high end" builders that also retreat cut ends but most of the "regular" builders around here don't bother near as I can tell.


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    Default Re: KD HT lumber vs PT lumber for deck

    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Fellman View Post
    Yep, rv.net - it's a great place to learn about RVs - I have a Montana 5th wheel that I never seem to use enough to justify keeping it. Anyone interested? It's in great shape.... I'll even deliver to Florida for the right price JP
    Matt,

    We had a 36 foot Open Road 5th wheel before the motor home. When we were in South Florida we used it about every 4-6 weeks on weekends and a week or so in the North Carolina mountains. After moving up here we did not use it much, and between the payments, the truck payments, the storage payment, the insurance payment for the RV and the truck (we only used the truck to pull the 5th wheel), that all came to about $1,500 month ... all so we could go camping for $18 a night ... every 6 months ...

    The math was no longer there, so we sold it and bought a less expensive motor home (and did not need that F350, crew cab, dually, 4x4 monster truck).

    So ... I appreciate the offer for the good price on the 5th wheel, but ... been there ... done that ... got the tee shirt ... worn it out ...

    Simply put, in right at 10 years of camping we lost about $135,000 on RVs in our trades Yes, not 'what we spent', but 'what we lost out of pocket'.

    Being more careful this time.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  13. #13
    Bruce King's Avatar
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    Default Re: KD HT lumber vs PT lumber for deck

    I went to the h-depot today and checked out the lumber, they do have the lumber with HT stamp and the PT tag stapled on the end. They also have untreated lumber with the same HT stamp.

    I talked with a guy that worked there, he was actually very knowledgable about lumber and agreed that the suppliers should put all of the info on the stamp but they just don't do it that way. He said most people remove the end tags that indicate PT when staining or sealing the decks.


    Jerry, We have beat the RV system so far, 1st one was a used popup for $4200, we used it a lot for 4 years and sold it for $3700. (we got a deal on it and kept it in near perfect condition) The next one, a new 07 travel trailer, we got it for $6000 off sticker and will be using it for 10 years unless someone crashes into it. We have it insured for replacement cost plus contents. Its kept under a roof which adds years to the life. We might only get a few thousand for it when we sell but it won't matter at that point. Then we are going to look for a diesel RV that is 4-5 years old

    Bruce King, B.A. King Home Inspections, LLC
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  14. #14
    Jerry Peck's Avatar
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    Default Re: KD HT lumber vs PT lumber for deck

    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce King View Post
    Then we are going to look for a diesel RV that is 4-5 years old
    We have considered a diesel but around here - in Florida and the surrounding states where we travel most - diesel is considerably more than gas.

    In California, however, we noticed that diesel was considerably less than gas.

    Go figure.

    A diesel typically gets almost 25% better mpg than gas engine to move the same motor home, so if diesel is 25% more, there is no savings.

    Diesels have less problems, require less maintenance, but the maintenance costs more, so that seems to be about an even trade off.

    If you are buying a larger motor home (36-37 feet and up) I would recommend the tag axle as that adds stability on the highway, however, it also reduces mpg slightly (about 1 mpg) - another trade off.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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    Default Re: KD HT lumber vs PT lumber for deck

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    We have considered a diesel but around here - in Florida and the surrounding states where we travel most - diesel is considerably more than gas.

    In California, however, we noticed that diesel was considerably less than gas.

    Go figure.

    A diesel typically gets almost 25% better mpg than gas engine to move the same motor home, so if diesel is 25% more, there is no savings.

    Diesels have less problems, require less maintenance, but the maintenance costs more, so that seems to be about an even trade off.


    If you are buying a larger motor home (36-37 feet and up) I would recommend the tag axle as that adds stability on the highway, however, it also reduces mpg slightly (about 1 mpg) - another trade off.
    The diesel having higher maintenance costs is a bit of a misconception. They typically require about 2X the volume of oil at changes but you go twice as far between changes so it's a wash. And, in reality, the diesel is cheaper because 6 diesel changes will be much less than 12 regular changes at a shop or dealer. Most shops and quickie-lubes just ding you for the extra quarts of oil.

    The main difference in maintanence is the fuel filter changes. In most cases it's about every 10K miles. The filters are about $23 if you buy them online. Dealers do charge a premium for a fuel filter change. Most are around $100 which seems like highway robbery.

    Bascially, if you do your own maintanence the diesel vs. gas difference is almost nothing (and 10K intervals are nice). If you go to the dealer or most shops the diesel will cost you more. Sometimes a lot more.

    Towing there's no comparrison.... diesel vs gas in any given truck is a night and day difference.


  16. #16
    Jerry Peck's Avatar
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    Default Re: KD HT lumber vs PT lumber for deck

    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Fellman View Post
    Towing there's no comparrison.... diesel vs gas in any given truck is a night and day difference.
    I agree on that, our 2004 F-350 was diesel, of course.

    However, what I am referring to are diesel motor homes, not diesel trucks, and in there it is a BIG difference.

    In the diesel motor homes you are talking at CAT diesel engines, REAL Cummins diesels and Detroit Diesel engines, not little old truck diesel engines. I've heard people say "The only thing wrong with my Cummins diesel is that it is attached to a Dodge".

    Much further between maintenance ... much more costly too.

    However, as I also said, it kinda washes out ... over the long run, but when maintenance is due, it's a hit on the check book.

    When buying a used motor home always check the date codes on the tires - it is recommended to replace the tires every 5-7 years due to dry rot, and a new set of tires for that "good deal" motor home will set you back $3-4 grand of more, $4-5 grand with a tag axle, making it not such a good deal anymore. Just something to take into consideration when shopping around.

    5th wheel and travel trailer tires have the same life, but there are fewer of them and they cost less each.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
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