Gasketed Openings? - InspectionNews

A.D. Miller · #1 (**permalink**) 11-07-2009, 07:26 AM

During my recent trip abroad I seem to have completely forgotten most of what little I knew before I left. So then, perhaps you will assist me with this. The house has an attached garage. The conterminous or contiguous wall with the house contains three (3) separate access panels for the fire sprinkler system, the main water shut-off valve and the PEX manifold. The access panel doors are metal of the proper thickness, but loosely fitting. Should these not be gasketed? Must they be?

John Arnold · #2 (**permalink**) 11-07-2009, 07:32 AM

"In A Tempranillo Haze" my butt.

The Plainspoken Man, eh? Hangover, is what I calls it.

Oh. I have no idea about your gasket question. My bad.

A.D. Miller · #3 (**permalink**) 11-07-2009, 07:57 AM

Quote:

In A Tempranillo Haze" my butt.

The Plainspoken Man, eh? Hangover, is what I calls it.

JA: Poetic license applies.

H.G. Watson, Sr. · #4 (**permalink**) 11-07-2009, 08:06 AM

Perhaps the backside is fully wrapped with fire clay/putty, or some other method of sealing/blocking the penetration(s) from the inside of the cavity. More than one way to skin a cat.

Not clear on what is loose. Gaps in the separation should be sealed/blocked/finished.

A.D. Miller · #5 (**permalink**) 11-07-2009, 08:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr.

Perhaps the backside is fully wrapped with fire clay/putty, or some other method of sealing/blocking the penetration(s) from the inside of the cavity. More than one way to skin a cat.

Not clear on what is loose. Gaps in the separation should be sealed/blocked/finished.

HG: That would work, but the backs of these compartments were either OSB or loose insulation with netting and plenaty of gaps into the wall cavities.

A.D. Miller · #6 (**permalink**) 11-07-2009, 08:13 AM

HG: Sorry, did not read your whole post. By loose I meant the doors were loose fitting against the frames when in the closed position resulting in large gaps around the openings.

Gunnar Alquist · #7 (**permalink**) 11-07-2009, 09:51 AM

AD,

Seems to me that the gaskets would be more for air loss around doors than to prevent the spread of a fire. The gaskets at a house/garage door around here are not fireproof and they will melt away very quickly in a garage fire. I don't think I have ever seen a gasket on an access panel in a garage wall. However, the metal door generally laps over the metal door frame somewhat.

H.G. Watson, Sr. · #8 (**permalink**) 11-07-2009, 04:27 PM

AD: I'm not clear on this: Are they ON or IN a separation wall ?

There's some truth to the adage that one may need a vacation to recover from the vacation.

Tom King · #9 (**permalink**) 11-07-2009, 05:36 PM

How did you decide to report on this? If the interior of compartment is sealed and the exterior edges properly flashed I would consider them fine enough. However, considering how you described the interior I would consider the set-up likely to lead to problems if left unchanged - but I'm in New England and our weather may be more severe than "Tempranillo Haze's".

BTW...new here. Thank you for having me.

Jerry Peck · #10 (**permalink**) 11-07-2009, 06:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A.D. Miller

The house has an attached garage. The conterminous or contiguous wall with the house contains three (3) separate access panels for the fire sprinkler system, the main water shut-off valve and the PEX manifold.

My first reading through that lead me to say "WTH you talking about?", then I re-read it, dropped the unknown big word which I looked up (conterminous) and the other big word I knew (contiguous) as they were not clear in their use, and substituted in the smallish word "common" and came up with "The house has an attached garage. The common wall with the house ... "

Which raised the same basic point that H.G. was raising ...

Quote:

Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr.

AD: I'm not clear on this: Are they ON or IN a separation wall ?

... and that is: You stated "The ... wall with the house contains", indicating that they were "in" the wall.

Being as that is a "separation wall" and not a fire-resistance rated wall, the requirements for membrane penetrations into the garage side membrane are not the same as they are for a fire-resistance rated wall. That said, however, there is still a "separation" requirement which is required to be met.

The "separation" wall simply requires:
- R309.1.2 Other penetrations. Penetrations through the separation required in Section R309.2 shall be protected by filling the opening around the penetrating item with approved material to resist the free passage of flame and products of combustion.

Thus:
- The door could be an approved "separation" rated door (not sure there is such a rating, but if there is, then the door should be suitable as manufactured and installed if installed in accordance with the installation instructions).
- Lacking such an approved "separation" rating, what makes "The access panel doors are metal of the proper thickness"? What is "the proper thickness"?
- Lacking such information (I do not have it), then the door would need to meet the requirement for the garage side separation, or, the door would need to open to an enclosure which meets the garage side separation.

Agreed so far?

Being as the garage side separation is required to be 1/2" gypsum board minimum ("The garage shall be separated from the residence and its attic area by not less than 1/2-inch (12.7 mm) gypsum board applied to the garage side."), then either the door needs to be 1/2" gypsum board or the enclosure the door opens to needs to be 1/2" gypsum board on the garage side of the penetration. An example of the latter would be the "five sided box" which is constructed of 1/2" gypsum board and installed within the wall with the open (missing) sixth side of the box facing the opening in the separation wall to the garage side. The door would then open to an enclosure which consisted of the required 1/2" gypsum on the garage side.

The pipes which enter and exit this five sided box would need to be sealed around where they entered and exited the walls of the box.

A.D. Miller · #11 (**permalink**) 11-08-2009, 09:46 AM

Common pictures for guys with an uncommon grasp of the language:

A.D. Miller · #12 (**permalink**) 11-08-2009, 09:48 AM

Two more thousand words:

A.D. Miller · #13 (**permalink**) 11-08-2009, 09:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A.D. Miller

During my recent trip abroad I seem to have completely forgotten most of what little I knew before I left. So then, perhaps you will assist me with this. The house has an attached garage. The conterminous or contiguous wall with the house contains three (3) separate access panels for the fire sprinkler system, the main water shut-off valve and the PEX manifold. The access panel doors are metal of the proper thickness, but loosely fitting. Should these not be gasketed? Must they be?

As you can see, my original post states that the "common" wall CONTAINS access panels. It does not say that it supports them or is adorned by them or that they are draped across the wall, but that it CONTAINS them. Any CONTAINER I have ever had the pleasure of dealing with CONTAINS its CONTENTS by storing them within itself. Thinking thusly, is is reasonable to assume and verifiable by the photos above, that the panels are within the wall and not just velcroed to the exterior of it.

G-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-z-US!

Jerry Peck · #14 (**permalink**) 11-08-2009, 10:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A.D. Miller

As you can see, my original post states that the "common" wall CONTAINS access panels.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

Being as that is a "separation wall" and not a fire-resistance rated wall, the requirements for membrane penetrations into the garage side membrane are not the same as they are for a fire-resistance rated wall. That said, however, there is still a "separation" requirement which is required to be met.

Being as the garage side separation is required to be 1/2" gypsum board minimum ("The garage shall be separated from the residence and its attic area by not less than 1/2-inch (12.7 mm) gypsum board applied to the garage side."), then either the door needs to be 1/2" gypsum board or the enclosure the door opens to needs to be 1/2" gypsum board on the garage side of the penetration. An example of the latter would be the "five sided box" which is constructed of 1/2" gypsum board and installed within the wall with the open (missing) sixth side of the box facing the opening in the separation wall to the garage side. The door would then open to an enclosure which consisted of the required 1/2" gypsum on the garage side.

The pipes which enter and exit this five sided box would need to be sealed around where they entered and exited the walls of the box.

As you can see in my first post, I have already answered your question for those who have a common grasp of the language, but for those who grasp exceeds the commonality of common language:

Your pretty photos show that there is no minimum 1/2" gypsum board on the garage side of that wall at those covers.

Thus, there is no "separation" on the garage side of that wall.

For clarification, a "membrane penetration" is a penetration which, like those openings behind those covers, penetrates "the membrane" surface of that wall.

Another type of penetration is a "through penetration" and is rather easily described as a pipe, duct, or anything else which penetrates the membrane on one side and continues through the wall penetrating and exiting the membrane on the other side of the wall.

"Membrane penetrations" and "through penetrations" are treated differently, so I described the treatment given "membrane penetrations".

To make this as simple as the simplest possible way allows: If you do not have 1/2" gypsum board on the garage side of the wall you do not have the required "separation".

To complicate that some, when there is not 1/2" gypsum board on the garage side of the wall, one much now consider whether the lack of such 1/2" gypsum results in: 1) "an opening" through the wall; 2) a "membrane penetration" or; 3) a "through penetration".

An "opening" (such as a doorway between the garage and the house) requires a door which meets the requirements for doors in "openings".

A "membrane penetration" or a "through penetration", for "separation" walls requires that the annular space around the "penetration" be sealed to resist the free passage of flame and the products of combustion.

Aaron, I know your vocabulary far exceeds mine, so I have tried to keep it simple. Hopefully what is there and what is needed has been conveyed through my use of simpler vocabulary.

H.G. Watson, Sr. · #15 (**permalink**) 11-08-2009, 11:03 AM

If not filling, gyp boxing or putty/clay sealing for "other penetrations" is not followed, then in this application, I believe we would consider these an access opening (s) in the required separation wall.

What I see pictured are access doors, the "panel" in the "access panel doors" threw me I was initially picturing a self contained six-sided cabinet mounted or installed.

The 20-minute fire-rated doors equivallent (or other based on local ammendment) might be inferred for these access doors to the cavities of the shared wall. I'm basing this on 309.1 & 309.2.

How does R309.1.3 read in your county/municipality? R309.2??

There are tested and rated access doors, although I can't off-hand think of one large enough for the applications, that doesn't exceed the minimum standard rating of 20 minutes.

.

H.G. Watson, Sr. · #16 (**permalink**) 11-08-2009, 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A.D. Miller

HG: That would work, but the backs of these compartments were either OSB or loose insulation with netting and plenaty of gaps into the wall cavities.

Excuse me, but I read and re-read what you had posted to the point I asked the question about IN or ON and if we were speaking of a separation wall, as then there were no pictures, and from what was quoted above, was unclear as to the compartments you were speaking of, their "backs", what "plenaty" meant, etc. I unlike you did not have the benefit at that time of a picture, nor what your intended meaning was, or if it was SEMI-RECESSED. First posts I was likewise unclear if your access panels were self contained with knockouts/drilled penetrations, etc. How could I know from what you had posted it as you posted it. Forgive me that I was unclear if you were discussing the backs of the access panels (if self contained) or what was BEHIND them as in "compartments", nor what you meant by "compartments", as in something compartmentalized, separated, etc. it "did not fully compute" for me at the time and in the manner presented. Not being the Son of Man, A.D. I couldn't devine it with impunity.

Access openings into the separation is what we're discussing, I get it now, thanks so much for clarifying it. Sorry I'm not a mind reader, perfect, and unlike the Pope, not infailable.

Looking at the pictures only raised more curious questions in my mind, as for one thing see no insulation that was mentioned, wonder about the thermal/conditioned envelope thought I saw fungus/moisture damage, such as one of the upper blocks looks like particle board, is it? The OSB at the backs - is that just within the "compartment" (how installed) can it support the manifold or is it depending on attachment to drywall behind it or is it a sheer panel, etc., not that it matters much.

A.D. Miller · #17 (**permalink**) 11-08-2009, 11:31 AM

I am so glad to be back and right in the midst of this never-ending inquisition!

You guys are too much, even for me . . .

I'll return after I take a chill pill - maybe two . . .

H.G. Watson, Sr. · #18 (**permalink**) 11-08-2009, 12:23 PM

As I re-read this string yet again, I gotta ask this:

Are these apparently unrated flush access doors/panels on the garage side of the separation wall?

Doesn't most of Texas occasionally experience freezing temperatures (why I'm wondering if these are on the house side, and thus much ado about not much)

These appear to be unrated surface mounting screws/bolts, loose doors (as described) no retention spring, etc. There are flush mounted rated access panels. Most I am familiar with in a size similar to what is pictured are minimum 1-1/2 hour ratings.

Another alternative is to use a fire-rated cabinet.

Not just fire but products of combustion.

Jerry Peck · #19 (**permalink**) 11-08-2009, 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr.

Doesn't most of Texas occasionally experience freezing temperatures (why I'm wondering if these are on the house side, and thus much ado about not much)

H.G.,

Another very good point you headed toward but then veered away from (or I missed you staying the course in this direction).

That house/garage wall is required to be insulated as it defines the thermal envelope of the house, and ...

There is no insulation in the areas of the wall shown in those photos.

Whether or not those were on the garage side of the wall or the house side of the wall.

H.G. Watson, Sr. · #20 (**permalink**) 11-08-2009, 04:08 PM

JP: You mean here?

Quote:

Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr.

Looking at the pictures only raised more curious questions in my mind, as for one thing see no insulation that was mentioned, wonder about the thermal/conditioned envelope thought I saw fungus/moisture damage, such as one of the upper blocks looks like particle board, is it? The OSB at the backs - is that just within the "compartment" (how installed) can it support the manifold or is it depending on attachment to drywall behind it or is it a sheer panel, etc., not that it matters much.

Yeah, my mind has been wandering lately, especially since I'm off Java/Joe for good. Dang its difficult getting old, not that I'm complaining mind you, it beats the alternative!

Bugs me that it takes so long to type something out that my short term memory fails and I forget what I did type vs. what I was meaning to type.

Some of the higher-rated cabinets and better rating panels are super sexy as along with their rating (if also rated for time/heat) they are insulated.

Continuing the insulation question/issue, plumbing/sprinkler freeze/burst issues? Perhaps not don't know where in Texas or Spain (freeze zone?).