Detached garage with no man door. - InspectionNews

Michael Thomas · #1 (**permalink**) 05-15-2008, 09:42 PM

Is a garage required to have means of access other than the vehicle door?

Saw a detached garage today with a power opener and only a vehicle door.

How the heck would you get in if there is a power or door mechanism failure?

Does the IRC address this?

Richard Moore · #2 (**permalink**) 05-16-2008, 12:17 AM

See...

Keyed Disconnect Device - Emergency Release

I don't know of any code that would prohibit a vault style (no other entrance) garage, but I always recommend one of these if it has an opener. That's assuming it doesn't already have one...most do around here. Bad enough losing your power, but to then not be able to drive anywhere would really suck.

In case it's not clear, the cable attaches to the traveller disconnect. You unlock the thing and then pull out the keyed section along with the cable. One sharp tug and...Open Sesame. I put one in for a neighbor once. 15 minutes work at most.

The only caveat is that while they can close the door manually, they may not be able to "relock" the door during that time. That would depend on the type of drive, the traveller and, of course, any other locking mechanism the door might still have that could be made functional again.

Jerry Peck · #3 (**permalink**) 05-16-2008, 05:44 AM

I've seen many like those Richard linked to, they work great, attached garages with only the overhead door for access (typically used for golf carts on the houses I inspected).

The ones I saw would allow you to re-insert the keyed lock mechanism (giving the cable to the emergency release device slack), then you could reset the emergency release lever to automatically engage when the door closed.

That way, you could close the door from the outside and it would lock back into the opener traveler and lock the door closed.

However, they would not do any good if the door opener track itself or if the traveler itself broke - guess you would be stuck in there then.

Of course, though, those are to allow access into that space, you are referring to getting out once in and the door is closed, right?

I always suggested to my clients that they have a door operator button installed on the wall inside those garages in case they were in there and someone else (like a spouse) closed the door without knowing they were in there, they did not have the remote with them.

That would not solve the problem with the power out, but you would be in the garage and could then pull the emergency release cable to raise the door - provided the springs were tensioned properly to balance the door.

Michael Thomas · #4 (**permalink**) 05-16-2008, 05:56 AM

New to me, thanks!

Markus Keller · #5 (**permalink**) 05-16-2008, 06:45 AM

The 07 Chicago code does not specifically require a people door on a garage, that I can find. The closest applicable section I could find is 4(13-96-280).
If this is a new garage it was built without a permit or not to permit. I work with a garage builder doing inspections and know that they cannot get a permit through DCAP without a people door. You can check the DCAP website for garage permit info and it should be listed there.
IRC does not apply to Chicago. Any challenges you make have to be to Chicago code or such challenges will not have traction.
Good luck

Jerry Peck · #6 (**permalink**) 05-16-2008, 07:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Markus Keller

Any challenges you make have to be to Chicago code or such challenges will not have traction.

Markus,

That would only apply to "code" challenges, not to "safety" or "common sense" challenges.

Any builder not installing a second way out (which includes those safety features) can be challenged for creating an unsafe condition, whether or not it meets code. All codes, even the Chicago code, are "minimum standards" ... i.e. the crappiest they are legally allowed to build, *not* "good", "better", or "best" building practices.

If DCAP (whatever that is) requires a people door, that is good. You could even have a people door within the overhead door (overhead doors with people doors in them are available - they are commercial doors, not residential doors, so they *cost more*). Installing an overhead door with a people door within it solves a lot of problems, such as 'there is only one wall which does not have something on the other side of it' (like in many townhouses or 'townhouse like condos').

(I did a search on the internet and could not find one to link to, but I've seen them installed years ago.)

Markus Keller · #7 (**permalink**) 05-16-2008, 07:40 AM

DCAP - Dept. of Construction and Permits
Sorry for the slang Jerry, bad habit. I figured Michael would know what it meant.
I've also seen the overhead doors with a people door within, not popular since they are expensive and not that attractive. Makes your house look like the odd ball of the neighborhood, especially with all the new construction house/garage facing the street and not the alley. Probably no alleys in Florida anyway.
You are correct about the code, safety, challenge point. I guess a difference is the way I look at things. I look at many of these issues from the vantage point of being challenged and how it will play out, legally, financially, etc for the client. I try to anticipate as many worst case scenarios as possible with a given situation and 'head them off at the pass'. I guess the nature of much of my work has put me into that mindset. Many of my clients are attorneys and I'm married to one.
Hey did you hear the perpetual joke that floats around Chicago?
'What do you call a thousand lawyers at the bottom of Lake Michigan'?
'A good start'.
My wife hates that joke.
Anyway, Michael the code is clear on the exit path required from a garage people door to a public way. If that is something you want, let me know.

Richard Moore · #8 (**permalink**) 05-16-2008, 09:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

I've seen many like those Richard linked to, they work great, attached garages with only the overhead door for access (typically used for golf carts on the houses I inspected).

The ones I saw would allow you to re-insert the keyed lock mechanism (giving the cable to the emergency release device slack), then you could reset the emergency release lever to automatically engage when the door closed.

That way, you could close the door from the outside and it would lock back into the opener traveler and lock the door closed.

....

A lot of our "vaults" in the urban areas are at older houses (1910's on) with small, single, detached garages in the back yard. Many don't have power, many of those that do don't have an opener, and maybe one in a hundred is actually still used for parking a car. Most are now junk or tool sheds. My own used to be a vault but I have recently rebuilt the walls and "cottagized" it with salvaged door and windows (see photo). I do have an opener on the new main door as the wife parks her scooter in there, but it would be tight for a car, even for the Mini.

In the "burbs", some of the "lower-rise", apartment/condo complexes have separate, detached banks of garages with one assigned to the unit. Those are usually "vaults" but, in those cases, they always have the emergency releases pre-installed. I just explain it and remind the client to get the key (probably often lost).

On re-locking. With some of the screw drive openers, the traveller locks onto the screw anywhere along it's length. Those are the ones you see with micro-switch travel limiters at each end of the track rather than travel setting screws at the motor head. On those types, there is no way to reset the emergency release and still be able to close the door manually.

Jerry Peck · #9 (**permalink**) 05-16-2008, 05:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Markus Keller

You are correct about the code, safety, challenge point. I guess a difference is the way I look at things. I look at many of these issues from the vantage point of being challenged and how it will play out, legally, financially, etc for the client. I try to anticipate as many worst case scenarios as possible with a given situation and 'head them off at the pass'. I guess the nature of much of my work has put me into that mindset. Many of my clients are attorneys ...

Markus,

That's the way I thought too ... usually the 'worst case' ends with multiple deaths, the client, spouse, kids, etc., ...

... many times one trying to save the other trying to save the other trying to save ...

That's why I came up with "code is the minimum crappiest one is legally allowed to build", after so many builders saying (even though it did not) "it meets code".

I would respond with my "code is the minimum ... ", and then frequently add in "code is not something you get up in the morning and say to yourself that you will strive to meet code, code is the crappiest you are legally allowed to start at when you get up in the morning and start to work - you *strive* for doing better".

Beyond code is where the "safety" and "other factors" (see below) come in. Once they have met "code", that's where what they represented to the buyer comes in:

I ask the Builder: Is this house 'minimum standard housing'? (I'm standing in a $5 mil house and I know it is not.)

Builder replies: OF COURSE NOT! WHAT DO YOU THINK I BUILD! This is a custom/luxury/quality/you-name-the-wording house - THAT IS ALL I build.

Me: (turning to my client) This is a "custom" "quality" "luxury" house?

Client: Yes. That is what the builder advertised it as and what we bought it as.

Builder: (turning toward me after listening to the client state the above) See? I only build luxury homes.

Me: (facing the builder) Good, then to make sure that we are all on the same page (now turning to my client) and being as "code" is the crappiest one is legally allowed to build, you don't want to hear the builder respond to any concerns by implying that something "is good enough" just because he thinks it meets the minimum crappiest standard, do you (turning to the builder to see their response)?

Jerry McCarthy · #10 (**permalink**) 05-16-2008, 05:47 PM

Speaking of garages does anybody remember the code required “suicide vents?” At least that's what we builders called them.

Jerry Peck · #11 (**permalink**) 05-16-2008, 05:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jerry McCarthy

Speaking of garages does anybody remember the code required “suicide vents?” At least that's what we builders called them.

.Yep.

Jerry McCarthy · #12 (**permalink**) 05-17-2008, 10:42 AM

One yep, OK, why do you supose the code writers dropped that requirement? I mean, you find most gas fired appliances located within residential dwelling garages?

Jerry Peck · #13 (**permalink**) 05-17-2008, 04:29 PM

Dunno.

With each cycle of combining the various codes, it seemed that the weakest of each code being combined was what was acceptable to the "committees", and you know what "committees" do to things ...

BARRY ADAIR · #14 (**permalink**) 05-18-2008, 04:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard Moore

My own used to be a vault but I have recently rebuilt the walls and "cottagized" it with salvaged door and windows (see photo).

Richard,

Great job!

I thought my pop-up blocker malfunctioned and changed chanels to DIY-TV

Kevin Rutledge · #15 (**permalink**) 05-18-2008, 03:50 PM

I just inspected a garage with no man door, and I can't find anything saying that you have to have one. The one I inspected had a wood floor and a crawl space. I advised the client to not park a car in it until they had it checked out by a professional. These are not uncommon down here in southern Indiana.

Markus Keller · #16 (**permalink**) 05-18-2008, 07:04 PM

Wood floor and crawlspace? Sounds like something out of 'Silence of the Lambs' or a DEA raid.

Jerry Peck · #17 (**permalink**) 05-19-2008, 05:52 AM

Wood floor and crawlspace in a garage? Sounds like someone may have done the opposite of what Richard did with his garage-to-cottage?

Jerry McCarthy · #18 (**permalink**) 05-19-2008, 08:20 AM

In hilly building sites around the SF peninsula folks park their cars on top of wood framed and planked carports and garages. I used to write them up as a fire hazard due to having combustible (wood) floors. (IRC R309.3 - CBC same), which of course POd the RE agents no end. It seems the local AHJ overlooked this as it was a hot political potato, but I still persisted until the day I retired. What say others regarding this dilemma?