Thread: CSST. What distance from open flame

I inspected a home today with a WBFP (wood burning fireplace) configured with artifical logs and a CSST gas line. The CSST fed a fixture flame-box that sat beneath the logs. The CSST was within 4 inches of the flame. Anyone know the rating limitation on CSST in regards to distance from open flame? See the photo.

Thanks

Gene

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Originally Posted by Gene South

I inspected a home today with a WBFP (wood burning fireplace) configured with artifical logs and a CSST gas line.

Gene,

First, unless that fireplace is approved for use with wood *AND* *GAS*, then that gas log set would not be allowed. Also, when dual rated, they will have a maximum input rating for the gas log set stated.

Now for your question, though:

The CSST fed a fixture flame-box that sat beneath the logs. The CSST was within 4 inches of the flame. Anyone know the rating limitation on CSST in regards to distance from open flame?

Most, if not all, "recommend" (which is not always the same as "require", but could be argued that if you do not do as "recommended" you could be high and dry if something happens and the manufacturer says you are on you own) that the yellow covering be removed to reduce the risk of heating, burning, producing smoke, etc., however ...

That looks more like a "connector" than it does CSST.

Gene,

Go here: http://www.dormont.com/dmc/uploadedF...Catalog2MB.pdf

On page 5 you will see a "coated Stainless Steel Gas Connector" called "Safety Shield", that looks like what that is.

Then go here: http://www.dormont.com/dmc/uploadedF...fetyShield.pdf

Looks to me as though that IS NOT allowed in the firebox as its temperature rating is only: "Temperature rating of connector with adapters: - 40°F to 150°F" (see bottom right of last page)

Is that white teflon tape on that gas connection?

rick

Originally Posted by Rick Hurst

Is that white teflon tape on that gas connection?

rick

Oh-oh, here it goes again.

I 'thought' that the last time we went through this, the end result was that the yellow was 'recommended but not required' and that the color designated the tape's thickness and 'recommended but not required' uses ... but ... *I could be wrong - AGAIN*.

Gene, that's not CSST---its a "flexible appliance connector". Rick, I agree it is Teflon and should not be used with gas since it tends to clog valve seats. Some other questions: What is the make and model fireplace, what is the make and model gas log set what is the ANSI listing on the rating plate, is the gas line properly packed and sealed, is there an approved shutoff within 6 ft. of the fireplace, do you have facing clearances, what is the make flex connector? That'll do for starters....

Dormont and Brass Craft both make flex connectors with a plastic coating rated specifically for fireplaces but they are usually black.
Bob

Sorry I know this thread's been up for awhile but, Bob, can you explain "packed and sealed" for me, I can't seem to find anything explaining that very well. And if it is done correctly is it obvious by looking at it? Thank you

Brian

Gas line entry into a fireplace should be sealed, this is to avoid any gas leak entering into the fireplace cavity between the actual firebox and the fireplace box, in the case of a factory built fireplace if there is a gas leak and the gas collects in the space within the fireplace, then potentially you could turn the metal fireplace into a possible bomb, packing the gasline through the box protects the line from possible damage on the sharp metal of the box.

My take on the issue.

Kevin T Stewart
F.I.R.E. EDC

Originally Posted by Kevin Stewart

Gas line entry into a fireplace should be sealed, this is to avoid any gas leak entering into the fireplace cavity

Kevin,

Not being a fireplace person, but having read what Bob Harper posts (I.e., that's like saying I stayed at Holiday Inn ), I thought the purpose of that packing and sealing was to keep the fire and heat in the fireplace, not for gas penetration.

Do you have the materials used, and the process or sequence, for "sealing around the gas line entry"?

I believe that is what Brian was asking, and I know I am also curious as to the materials and methods used, as I am sure others are.

Thanks,

Thanks Kevin, so it's just talking about the very short run, (in the case of the factory built) to keep any possible gas from a leak from filling the box, and as jerry said it will keep the heat off it as well. thank you gentlemen.

And Jerry's post makes me curious how you would know that it was done properly, as in obvious signs. A detector might tell you if it was presently leaking (and your nose) but could you tell if it was done properly so that it won't leak in case of a leak inside somewhere in the future. I wonder if anyone has pics of this?

Originally Posted by A.D. Miller

So then, if I were in the uninitiated class, and reading this thread, I might not know what the conclusions are. See if this sums it up:

1. The yellow flexible appliance connector is not designed for use in a firebox.

2. The opening in the firebox sidewall should be sealed in order to prevent sparks and flame from exiting the firebox. There is usually an abundance of combustible materials on the outside.

3. Teflon tape should not be used for gas connections, except on HGTV, and by its adherents.

4. CSST cannot be used in a firebox except by that same crowd.

Aaron,

You might be correct on two of those.

I don't know that the yellow polyester coated flex connectors are forbidden from use inside fireboxes. It's just there are models made specifically for fireboxes and you don't have to spray combustible black paint all around to hide it.

It's only a matter of time before people begin suing DIY TV for all the dangerous advise they give out.

Leave the Teflon for water pipes

You seal and pack the side of the Fp to prevent heat, smoke and gases from escaping the knockout. Dale Feb has a neat slide showing a fire loss where this happened. The heat exited the fireplace outer wrap, hit a fallen batt of insulation which bridged it over to the studs where it ignited. A current Heatilator Fp manual states to seal around the gas pipe with fireplace mortar or high temperature noncombustible sealant. This is usually done by packing around the gas pipe with the rockwool embers that came with the gas appliance. That seals the conduit through the sidewall of the Fp. Then, seal the pipe to the refractory panel with the Fp mortar. Ideally, you would seal the inner wall penetration of the firebox proper with this mortar then replace the panel sliding the punched out hole over the pipe, then mortar around the pipe. FYI, HHT has a stated clearance to combustibles outside the firebox inside the chase cavity of 1.5" for the first 4" of pipe out of the firebox. This is a tested number and I have discussed it with the engineer. He admits CSST does not conduct as much heat as the 1/2" black iron pipe he tested this with but because CSST is so erratic in heat conduction, he said just meet the same clearance for safety sake even though it usually does conduct far less heat than an iron pipe. Now, since you know of this stated clearance, you should not be seeing the yellow polyester jacket of the CSST visible from the firebox. It should be cut back.

To the original question, as long as you don't have direct flame impingement on the CSST, I doubt it would be a problem.
HTH,
Bob

Originally Posted by Bob Harper

FYI, HHT has a stated clearance to combustibles outside the firebox inside the chase cavity of 1.5" for the first 4" of pipe out of the firebox. This is a tested number and I have discussed it with the engineer. He admits CSST does not conduct as much heat as the 1/2" black iron pipe he tested this with but because CSST is so erratic in heat conduction, he said just meet the same clearance for safety sake even though it usually does conduct far less heat than an iron pipe. Now, since you know of this stated clearance, you should not be seeing the yellow polyester jacket of the CSST visible from the firebox. It should be cut back.

Bob,

That goes along with the reason for the 'T' ratings on fire-resistance rated assemblies penetrated by metallic penetrants (like steel pipe).

While the F (Flame) rating may be 1 hour, if the T (temperature) rating is less than the F rating, then that penetrant (the steel pipe) is not allowed or a different fire stop system is needed which has a T rating the same as the F rating.

The T rating is the time it takes for the penetrant to reach, on the non-fire side, 250 degrees F plus ambient temperature.

One explanation I read years ago was that the test and temperature evolved to see what temperature the steel pipe (in this example) would rise to before igniting rolls of toilet paper (which are easily ignitable) stacked around the pipe.

The difference between the T rating and the 1-1/2" clearance around the gas pipe is that a T rating is not required when in a wall cavity unless the wall framing is combustible material (or if there were combustible material within the wall cavity).

The reason is the same, though, heating up of the metal pipe and igniting something on the non-fire side. Not being a fireplace person, I am surprised they did not have that already.

Originally Posted by A.D. Miller

JP: 2 X 2 = Correct

Which ones were you correct on, the others you were incorrect on ... 2 X 2 = correct - 2 X 2 = incorrect

Originally Posted by A.D. Miller

JP: If you read them all closely, you will surely see that I cannot be faulted on any of them.

Let us see ...

Originally Posted by A.D. Miller

So then, if I were in the uninitiated class, and reading this thread, I might not know what the conclusions are. See if this sums it up:

1. The yellow flexible appliance connector is not designed for use in a firebox.

You are correct on that one as it is "not designed for use in a firebox".

2. The opening in the firebox sidewall should be sealed in order to prevent sparks and flame from exiting the firebox. There is usually an abundance of combustible materials on the outside.

You are correct on that one as "the firebox sidewall should be sealed" and you included two of the reasons for the sidewall to be sealed.

3. Teflon tape should not be used for gas connections, except on HGTV, and by its adherents.

You are incorrect on that one as they make a yellow pipe thread tape ("Teflon" tape) which is made for use on gas lines. Additionally, while the white pipe thread tape (white is to indicates it thickness, or lack there of, and yellow indicates its thickness as being thicker, and yellow colored for gas as yellow is the international color for gas) ... while the white pipe thread tape 'is not recommended for' use with gas, it is also not dis-allowed for gas use.

4. CSST cannot be used in a firebox except by that same crowd.

You are incorrect on that one as CSST is allowed in the firebox, and not only for that use by that crowd.

Therefore, you got *2* correct and *2* incorrect.

You can use CSST inside a firebox to connect gas logs.

Yes, yellow PTFE tape is approved for use with gas piping. However, it remains a problem if it is wrapped down to the first two threads where it can break off inside the pipe and clog the valve seat. While this can also happen with dope, the dope just doesn't seem to blow down the gas lines as easily as tape and tape has been known to blow around a sediment trap into the valve. Dope usually follows gravity and falls into the trap.

If you check with the mfr. you won't see a prohibition against using yellow poly coated flex connectors in a firebox to connect gas logs. Its just the black doesn't stand out. There is no requirement for these connectors to be listed or otherwise approved for specific use in a firebox.

HTH,
Bob

Originally Posted by A.D. Miller

JP: What I said is "should" not be used. I am not aware of plumbers in my area who use the yellow tape for gas installations. I only see it used by homeowners.

I know you said "should" and it is allowable to use a product made for, and approved for, a given use, and therefore one *should not* say that product *should not* be used for what it is approved for.

That makes three.

Nope, still just two.

JP: From the Gastite 2008 Design and Installation Guide:


CSST and Gastite

® brass fittings should not be used inside the firebox for log lighters/gas wands or in any firebox where

wood logs will be burned due to the potential for physical harm to the tubing (Fig. 4-68).

That's four for four.

Nope, still just two.

You *did not* say for gas log lighters, *YOU SAID* "4. CSST cannot be used in a firebox."

You are wrong on TWO POINTS, therefore ONE POINT is deducted from your two points leaving you with one point.

One, and don't forget, YOU are the one who stated "JP: If you read them all closely, you will surely see that I cannot be faulted on any of them.", and IF YOU READ THAT *CLOSELY* you will see that you said "can" , and one "can", whether allowed to or not.

Secondly, on that same 4., CSST *IS* allowed in a firebox, and, because you did not read closely you missed the fact that YOU DID NOT say "for gas log lighters".

Therefore you end up with ONE POINT only.

Originally Posted by A.D. Miller

JP: You hallucinate. CSST is not allowed in the firebox in the picture in question. Period. And further, is not allowed to be used in any firebox "for log lighters/gas wands or in any firebox where wood logs will be burned".

Aaron,

Now you are beginning to sound like Watson ... instead of admitting you are wrong you are trying to change the issue from what you said to what you meant to say.

I hate to be the one to tell you this, but ...

That does not work Watson and it will not work for you either.

Ok, let's all put on our big boy pants for a change and act like pros instead of some schoolyard antics.

Aaron, Jerry lives by *exact* wording. In this case, you made an absolute statement that he found a fault with: you claimed that CSST cannot be installed inside fireboxes under any circumstances. I'm sorry to break the news but that's just not the case. Go on Gastite.com and download the install manual, then read page 56 I believe where it discusses and even shows where it is ok to run CSST into the fireplace and connect directly to a gas log set or insert. It is NOT recommended to attach CSST directly to log lighters as they can flop around. If the gas logs and insert are essentially immovable, then you can connect directly to them with no problem. You cannot leave CSST lying in direct contact of burning wood or ashes.

Let's work together to understand and learn rather than all this one-upsmanship. You both are very knowledgeable so put it to good use rather than vitriol.
Thanks,
Bob

Hm

I kind of liked the "big boy pants" thing.

But I must say. I never could take a comment like that. Even if I were to deserve some form of foolish comment I have never taken to a belittling comment from anyone.

Aaron, Aaron, Aaron,

You really do need to go back and re-read YOUR statement, and, as YOU said, read it carefully as that was not the only error you (apparently) made in your statement from what you intended to state.

However, being as YOU did state it and YOU did state to read it carefully, YOU need to read it carefully, and then YOU will see where YOU are wrong.

However, as Bob said, this forum is better served by going on to other things. If you would like, I will direct you to your error via e-mail or PM so as not to distract the others. However, that too is your call.

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

...However, as Bob said, this forum is better served by going on to other things. If you would like, I will direct you to your error via e-mail or PM so as not to distract the others...

Hey! I was just getting the popcorn going!

Gees

What is this private crap.

I could care less if you folks put your "big boy pants" on.

(Enter A.D. stage left, genuflecting mightily, he speaks to JP and Bob)

Kind sirs, had I but been apprised of your newly minted, self-appointed status as de facto arbiters of all that is best for this forum, I should never have spoken my mind. Please, forgive me. I have inadvertently offended you.

As you can see my lords, said offending posts have been veritably plucked from view, so as not to further offend your sensibilities.

I shall now take my leave of you.

(Exit A.D. stage right, micturating effusively upon the sandals of his superiors)

Bob, according to your friend then, particularly the "cut back" comment, for that installation to be correct, what would it look like? There would be something else in place as opposed to the yellow csst to make that connection? Thank you

Originally Posted by A.D. Miller

I should never have spoken my mind. Please, forgive me. I have inadvertently offended you.

Aaron,

You did speak your mind, as you and all of us are allowed to ... ... but you know that.

What you have not done, as yet, is go back and re-read what you wrote, what you stated, and responded based on that, not based on what you intended to write.

When you do go back and re-read it, you will see that, indeed, you only had 2 of 4 correct, and that one was wrong in 2 aspects, leaving you with 1 point deducted from your 2 correct points.

Originally Posted by Brian Robertson

Bob, according to your friend then, particularly the "cut back" comment, for that installation to be correct, what would it look like? There would be something else in place as opposed to the yellow csst to make that connection? Thank you

Brian,

Not Bob, but what Bob is talking about is cutting back the yellow outer covering on the CSST, leaving only the CSST in the firebox.

Thus, the answer to "There would be something else in place as opposed to the yellow csst to make that connection?" would be "Yes, naked CSST."

Thx Jerry---that is correct about cutting the plastic back. If the CSST is exposed in the firebox such as with gas logs, you remove the plastic as it is considered a 'combustible'. However, if you install a gas insert, you would need to provide a grommet where it penetrates the outer wrap of the insert. This is to protect it from physical damage as well as electrically insulate it. The code and listings do not prescribe the level of insulation but the intent is to discourage a lightning hit to the venting from blowing out the CSST where it penetrates the Fp.

Aaron is very concerned about failure of the CSST due to heat. However, the examples he has provided all center around direct flame impingement---not just lying in a firebox where there is plenty of airflow (except for ventfree). He would have us believe it is an extreme hazard to have exposed CSST in a firebox attached to vented logs or inserts. However, statistically, this just is not borne out. There are far more failures and fires due to improper flares and connections with soft copper but it is still allowed. Why not demonize copper? This reminds me of bashing SUVs. Nobody can remember why they are evil but the media tells us they are and that anyone driving them is ruining our planet and putting us at risk on the roads.

I spoke with Ted Lemoff of the NFPA a few years back regarding the failure rates of CSST and flexible appliance connectors in fireplaces. He assured me they nor the CPSC are seeing these failures. Moreover, he assured me if there were any, numerous people would be beating his door down. You may recognize Ted as the author of the Nat'l Fuel Gas Code NFPA 54. It just is not a major hazard as Aaron has alluded to.

Aaron, I'm not claiming to be the arbiter of anything. I was simply making the point that BOTH of you were getting a little worked up over the issue. You apparently applied some of your personal views to an issue that is directly and clearly addressed and when caught on it, refused to admit it and we got this back and forth game. Again, if you read the entire section you quoted from including the illustrations, you will see where Gastite, as one brand of CSST does not specifically exclude the use of their product inside a fireplace to attach gas logs or inserts. Your refusal to admit this does not change the facts. Certainly you are allowed to speak your mind. However, I would recommend you temper it with facts and remove all personal opinion when quoting codes, stds. and listings. Your bias due to the litigation you referenced apparently has clouded your objectivity.

Aaron, your sharp witted barbs will make interesting reading by a deposing attorney.

Have a nice day and I hope you get your micturation under control.
Bob

Originally Posted by Bob Harper

Thx Jerry---that is correct about cutting the plastic back. If the CSST is exposed in the firebox such as with gas logs, you remove the plastic as it is considered a 'combustible'. However, if you install a gas insert, you would need to provide a grommet where it penetrates the outer wrap of the insert. This is to protect it from physical damage as well as electrically insulate it. The code and listings do not prescribe the level of insulation but the intent is to discourage a lightning hit to the venting from blowing out the CSST where it penetrates the Fp.

Aaron is very concerned about failure of the CSST due to heat. However, the examples he has provided all center around direct flame impingement---not just lying in a firebox where there is plenty of airflow (except for ventfree). He would have us believe it is an extreme hazard to have exposed CSST in a firebox attached to vented logs or inserts. However, statistically, this just is not borne out. There are far more failures and fires due to improper flares and connections with soft copper but it is still allowed. Why not demonize copper? This reminds me of bashing SUVs. Nobody can remember why they are evil but the media tells us they are and that anyone driving them is ruining our planet and putting us at risk on the roads.

I spoke with Ted Lemoff of the NFPA a few years back regarding the failure rates of CSST and flexible appliance connectors in fireplaces. He assured me they nor the CPSC are seeing these failures. Moreover, he assured me if there were any, numerous people would be beating his door down. You may recognize Ted as the author of the Nat'l Fuel Gas Code NFPA 54. It just is not a major hazard as Aaron has alluded to.

Aaron, I'm not claiming to be the arbiter of anything. I was simply making the point that BOTH of you were getting a little worked up over the issue. You apparently applied some of your personal views to an issue that is directly and clearly addressed and when caught on it, refused to admit it and we got this back and forth game. Again, if you read the entire section you quoted from including the illustrations, you will see where Gastite, as one brand of CSST does not specifically exclude the use of their product inside a fireplace to attach gas logs or inserts. Your refusal to admit this does not change the facts. Certainly you are allowed to speak your mind. However, I would recommend you temper it with facts and remove all personal opinion when quoting codes, stds. and listings. Your bias due to the litigation you referenced apparently has clouded your objectivity.

Aaron, your sharp witted barbs will make interesting reading by a deposing attorney.

Have a nice day and I hope you get your micturation under control.
Bob

Bob: Typical Republican blather.

"Bob: Typical Republican blather."

Better than socialists' propaganda!

Have a good one,
Bob

Originally Posted by Bob Harper

"Bob: Typical Republican blather."

Better than socialists' propaganda!

Have a good one,
Bob

Bob,

Except that there are no socialists here, only Democrats and Republicans.

And, as the Republicans have been shooting themselves in the foot so often these last 8 years, it has lead Republicans to join the Democrats as they, at this point in time (and most of the time, but that is for another discussion), seem to have centered their views closer to center and slightly left of center versus the Republican view of right of center to extreme right of center.

Heck, I made the change long before that guy Arlen did.

JP: Don't bother Bob. He's busy.

Gotcha! Thank you

I like Bob's theory on the grommet through the side wall. I always took it as protection from rubbing against the sharp edge but more importantly for separation. Cool, learned something!

Now back to bashing boy's...........

Oh Jerry, Obama spent more in his first few months then Bush has in his term. I know you will come back with he has to straighten out the republic mess.

I have a joke that I thought was funny. I am not prejudice so save your banter. For the squeamish stop here.










It is common knowledge that people would say pigs will fly before there will be a black president. 100 day's after Obama's in office swine flu!

Originally Posted by Mike Schulz

Oh Jerry, Obama spent more in his first few months then Bush has in his term. I know you will come back with he has to straighten out the republic mess.

Don't have to, you already pointed that out. Thanks.

I have a joke that I thought was funny. I am not prejudice so save your banter. For the squeamish stop here.

It is common knowledge that people would say pigs will fly before there will be a black president. 100 day's after Obama's in office swine flu!

Yeah, heard that already, but you've got to admit one thing, it sure is good having a president who can spell "flu", and even say and spell "swine flu", that other jerk guy could not even spell his own name, so everyone called him 'W'. Interesting when you consider that THE SMART brother was named "Jeb", huh?

Hey Billy Bob, youse out on youse fron porche? It'n me, BubbaJames, wid 'W' herya.

Only a matter of time before the politics come out...

Originally Posted by Tan Da

Only a matter of time before the politics come out...

Yep.

And only a matter of time before they go back away.

Glad to have you finally posting (I see that was your first post), welcome to THE inspectors board.

Maybe your future posts will offer more education information?

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

Yep.

And only a matter of time before they go back away.

Glad to have you finally posting (I see that was your first post), welcome to THE inspectors board.

Maybe your future posts will offer more education information?

Thanks for the welcome, though a little snarky!

I don't know that I've got a lot to offer at this point. I'm just getting started; just took the test here in Oregon. Haven't heard whether I passed all five sections yet, but they were pretty easy (even with no studying in the last six months).

This is obviously a slow process for me, but I decided I'd better pick up the pace. I thought this board would be a good place to pick up some more knowledge, and it IS proving to be valuable!

Just not sure how much of a market there is for a brand new inspector with the economy the way it is right now...

Originally Posted by Tan Da

Thanks for the welcome, though a little snarky!

You mean like your first post was, right?

I don't know that I've got a lot to offer at this point. I'm just getting started;

Tan,

EVERYONE has a lot to offer.

All of us collectively know more than all of us individually ... you know, and have seen, things we have not.

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

You mean like your first post was, right?



Tan,

EVERYONE has a lot to offer.

All of us collectively know more than all of us individually ... you know, and have seen, things we have not.

Ahh. I didn't mean it to be. I actually was enjoying the banter. Guess I should have said a little more so you knew it was a positive message and not a negative. My bad.

Thanks for the encouragement. I'll certainly pipe up when I can.

Gene you say its a wood burning fireplace, it looks like basically a masonry fireplace, so I'm curious how the gas line comes into the fireplace itself? Are there steel walls there or is it through the firebrick? And one last thing that was being talked about, there should be some information plate or something that can be found there to identify it as dual purpose, yes? Thanks guys

Gas line would come through the side of the metal shell and through the refractory panel.

Thanks Mike