the camera is my friend

**John Arnold** · 08-08-2009, 08:55 AM

I couldn't get the flue cap off to look down from the top, so I stuck my camera in there and snapped a few...

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**Michael Thomas** · 08-08-2009, 10:27 AM

Nice catch.

**Markus Keller** · 08-08-2009, 10:51 AM

Yes, nice catch. Done the same thing. Pisses off Realtors, makes you a superstar to the client.

**Bob Harper** · 08-08-2009, 01:22 PM

Looks like more of that homemade Philly unlisted chimney liner.

Good catch John.

**John Kogel** · 08-09-2009, 05:27 PM

Originally Posted by John Arnold

I couldn't get the flue cap off to look down from the top, so I stuck my camera in there and snapped a few...

Did the same last week. Mine had a decent liner. Anyone ever drop a camera down the flue? Need a wrist strap.

Hey Bob. What is a typical life span for metal liner on a woodstove?

**Jerry Peck** · 08-09-2009, 05:31 PM

Originally Posted by John Kogel

Hey Bob. What is a typical life span for metal liner on a woodstove?

I didn't know you were allowed to use a liner for a wood burning appliance, I thought they were listed for gas?

But then, wood stoves and fireplaces are not my big thing.

**Joe Klampfer** · 08-09-2009, 10:31 PM

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

I didn't know you were allowed to use a liner for a wood burning appliance.

Up here the liner used for 'solid fuel' needs to be stainless steel. Aluminum for gas-fired appliances.

**Matt Fellman** · 08-09-2009, 10:36 PM

I use my camera all the time for stuff like that... even dumb stuff like getting the HP off the garbage disposal without having to wedge my head behind it. Or, I snap a few pictures behind the dryer and look at them when I get home.

**Brandon Whitmore** · 08-09-2009, 11:14 PM

even dumb stuff like getting the HP off the garbage disposal

Hi Matt,

Do you document the HP of disposers, and if so, why?

Byron Lentz · 08-10-2009, 12:37 AM

Yeap, easy to stick that camera in there and see what you may have missed.

A.D. Miller · 08-10-2009, 04:37 AM

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

I didn't know you were allowed to use a liner for a wood burning appliance, I thought they were listed for gas?

But then, wood stoves and fireplaces are not my big thing.

JP: Check out UL 1777.

**Bob Harper** · 08-10-2009, 12:13 PM

John wrote: "Hey Bob. What is a typical life span for metal liner on a woodstove?"

It depends (you didn't really think I could give you a straight answer did you? ;-) )

It depends upon a lot of factors such as: brand, alloy, installation, stove connected, fuel burned, frequency of use, way fuel burned, sweeping schedule, use of cleaning chemicals, aerosols in the CAZ, climatic region, etc.

UL 1777 is the catchall listing for all chimney liners. It gets confusing because an aluminum liner listed only for CatI gas would be listed to UL1777 even though it is not approved for use with oil or solid fuels. Same for oil. When you burn solid fuel, you must meet the full listing of 1777, which includes a 2,100*F test, which supposedly simulates a chimney fire condition. This test is repeated for 3 cycles with sweeping and inspection btw. Also, you can list your liner for a 0 or 1" airspace to the interior walls of the chimney, a 0 or 1" clearance to the exterior. This is usually referred to as a "0/0, 1/0, or 1/1 for ex. This std. includes cementitious 'cast' or 'pumped' liners as well. BTW, a recent change to the std. requires all cast liners to meet the full 2,100F requirement.

So, to recap, you can have B-vent listed to UL 441 for CatI gas, L-vent listed to UL 641 for oil, Special Vent listed to UL 1738 for Cat III & IV gas and factory chimney listed to UL 103HT for wood, coal, oil and cat. I gas. With liners, its UL1777 for all except the Cat. IV, which uses UL 1738 for the liner as well, of which there is only one currently listed (positive vent pressure).

JP, if a liner is listed for solid fuel under 1777, then it can be used for an open hearth fireplace as long as it is sized and installed to the listing and codes. There is much debate over the proper way to terminate the liner at the top of the smoke chamber, as this is not addressed directly in 1777. Similarly, there is factory chimney listed for use repairing masonry fireplaces or venting pizza ovens but the anchor plate is not currently listed. This is being considered in the UL 103 STP, which I'm on.

Now, warranties on these products are all over the place. Some are listed for 10 yrs, some lifetime to the original owner and a few hold transferrable lifetime warranties. Generally, you get what you pay for. Also, there is a flood of unlisted liners on the market. There are companies who own the machine in a truck so they can "roll your own" right in the driveway, but since this is an unlisted liner, it is illegal under the IRC. Caveat emptor.

BTW, you can build a masonry chimney under the IRC/ IBC and vent a woodstove (if you follow all the rules) but that is seldon done and not very practical. However, there is no clear way to reline a masonry chimney using terra cotta tiles since the tiles must be carried up ahead of the surrounding masonry wythes. Buttering the edges and lowering tiles is not a recognized method.

Joe, while aluminum is still approved for use with Cat I gas, I don't recommend it for a number of reasons. First, it is rare to see it installed without crushing to the point you reduce the effective flue area. Second, many of these liners come apart or unravel. Third, falling bricks have been known to crush the liner again reducing the effective flue area. Forth, they usually carry inferior warranties. Fifth, none of the liners I'm aware of have listed tee fittings for the base. Sixth, most I see have a pile of sand in the base, which is aluminum oxide from what used to be the liner and is now corroded, meaning loss of material and liner integrity. Seven, if an animal builds a nest in them (common around here) you often rip up the liner trying to remove the obstruction. Eighth, the STP just voted to reduce the strength requirements substantially on these liners. Ninth, the terminations often corrode away allowing access to critters to block the liner. Tenth, Cat I fan assisted gas furnaces usually eat them up in just a few months.

Again, this is an example of the kind of info. you get taking Dale Feb's course. Yes, shameless unpaid plug. ;-)

HTH,
Bob

**Matt Fellman** · 08-10-2009, 01:13 PM

Originally Posted by Brandon Whitmore

Hi Matt,

Do you document the HP of disposers, and if so, why?

Good question.... the report format I started with (years ago) had a box for it so I suppose it's just stuck with me. It is pretty much useless information I suppose.

**Joe Klampfer** · 08-10-2009, 11:22 PM

Wow! Great reply Bob. (you actually had me convinced at point # 1)

Ted Menelly · 08-11-2009, 06:20 AM

Originally Posted by Matt Fellman

Good question.... the report format I started with (years ago) had a box for it so I suppose it's just stuck with me. It is pretty much useless information I suppose.

I was curious about that as well. If it is there and what kind of condition is all ever put in the report.

Turn switch on...yep it works. No heavy vibes or noise and such, no leaks.