Thread: Chimney..What would you say?

What would you say about this, if anything??

Thanks,
Chuck

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Well, I don't see anything wrong.

What did you think was wrong?

CL: It is a clear violation of:

R1001.11 Fireplace clearance.

All wood beams, joists, studs
and other combustible material shall have a clearance of not
less than 2 inches (51 mm) from the front faces and sides of
masonry fireplaces and not less than 4 inches (102 mm) from
the back faces of masonry fireplaces. The air space shall not be
filled, except to provide fire blocking in accordance with Section
R1001.12.

Is this interior (and if so is this 'business side' or intervening wall or floor) or exterior photos (assume exterior porch or eave side - wall to left & emt)? How is the chimney lined/relined?

Edited to add: What is the chimney/chase serving (thimble, stove, fireplace, insert, furnace, boiler, etc.)? Re-route telephone, thermostat, meter display-sending unit cable and avoid staples pinching cable.

Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr.

Is this interior (and if so is this 'business side' or intervening wall or floor) or exterior photos (assume exterior porch or eave side - wall to left & emt)? How is the chimney lined/relined?

Edited to add: What is the chimney/chase serving (thimble, stove, fireplace, insert, furnace, boiler, etc.)? Re-route telephone, thermostat, meter display-sending unit cable and avoid staples pinching cable.

Exterior brick chimney with tile flue. Wood structure around it is an added patio cover which acts an extension on the roof. Chimney penetration through roof terminated 20 inches above roof line.

Just curious to see what the consensus was out there about the chimney being too close to the combustible framing.

Chuck

If thats the case there is plenty of clearances.

Originally Posted by Chuck Lambert

What would you say about this, if anything??

Thanks,
Chuck

Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr.

Is this interior (and if so is this 'business side' or intervening wall or floor) or exterior photos (assume exterior porch or eave side - wall to left & emt)? How is the chimney lined/relined?

Edited to add: What is the chimney/chase serving (thimble, stove, fireplace, insert, furnace, boiler, etc.)? Re-route telephone, thermostat, meter display-sending unit cable and avoid staples pinching cable.

Originally Posted by Chuck Lambert

Exterior brick chimney with tile flue. Wood structure around it is an added patio cover which acts an extension on the roof. Chimney penetration through roof terminated 20 inches above roof line.

Just curious to see what the consensus was out there about the chimney being too close to the combustible framing.

Chuck

Chuck Lambert,

1. Since you haven't filled out your profile and provided a location there or on a signature line, can't know what the code adoptions are in your area (please do that).

2. Since you haven't provided sufficient information in either your original post nor fully responded to my prior questions, cannot answer specific, also lack of info photos to provide enough information to be specific.

3. Cannot know type of brick masonry construction (high-heat type two walls, spaces/scale, what's not pictured or said, etc).

4. Without knowing your code adoptions, I'll go with NFPA 211 (2006 edition) Chapter 7.

Only 20 inches termination above not sufficient. Unknown if the chase is completely separated from the exterior wall or encorporated therein.

When in doubt, defer to a Pro for a Level I or Level II.

Some selected exerpts from NFPA 211 (2006 edition), Chapter 7 Masonry Chimneys:

-7.1 General Requirements.
--7.1.6 Firestopping.
---7.1.6.1 Gaps between firestopping and the chimney shall not exceed 1/16 in. (1.6 mm)
---7.1.6.2 All spaces between chimneys and the floors and ceilings through which the chimneys pass shall remain fully open but shall be firestopped with noncombustible material.
---7.1.6.3 The firestopping of spaces between chimneys and wood joists, beams, or headers shall be of galvanized steel not less than 26 guage [0.019 in. (0.485 mm)] thick or of noncombustible sheet material not more than 1/2 in.(12.7 mm) thick.
--7.1.8 Structural Design.
---7.1.8.2 A chimney shall not support any structural load other than its own weight, unless designed to act as a supporting member.

-7.2 Construction of Masonry Chimneys. Masonry chimneys shall be constructed as detailed in this section and Table 7.2.
--7.2.1 Construction.
---7.2.1.1 Masonry chimneys shall be constructed of one of the following and shall be laid with full, push-filled, head, and bead mortar joints:
----(1) Solid masonry or solid, waterproofed, modular concrete blocks in nominal thicknesses not less than those specified in Table 7.2, Column I
----(2) Reinforced portland or refractory cement concrete in actual thicknesses not less than those specified in Table 7.2, Column I
----(3) Rubble stone masonry in actual thicknesses not less than those specified in Table 7.2, Column II
---7.2.1.2 Reinforced masonry chimneys for residential-type appliances shall be permitted to be constructed of hollow masonry units not less than 6 in. (152 mm) nominal thickness, with cells fully filled with mortar.
---7.2.1.3 Masonry chimneys for high-heat appliances shall meet the following criteria:
----(1) They shall be constructed with double walls of solid masonry or reinforced portland or refractory cement concrete.
----(2) Each double wall shall not be less than 8 in. (203 mm) thick with an air space of not less than 2 in. (51 mm) between walls.

Excerpts from Table 7.2:
Constructon, Termination, and Clearances for Masonry Chimneys
Chimney Type, Residential.
Chimney Wall Thickness
Column I, Brick or Concrete: 4 in. (102 mm),
Column II, Rubble Stone: 12 in. (305 mm);
Chimney Liner (See 7.2.2.3.)
Column III: fireclay.
Column IV, Thickness: 5/8 in (16 mm).
Column V, Cementl: Medium duty;
Termination
Column VI, Highest Point: 3 ft (0.91 m),
Column VII Nearby Structures: 2 ft (0.61 m) within 10 ft (3.05 m);
Minimum Air Space Clearances (See 7.2.2.3.)
Column VII, Interior Chimney: 2 in. (51 mm),
Column IX, Exterior Chimney: 1 in. (25 mm).

Chimney Type, High-heat
Chimney Wall Thickness
Column I, Brick or Concrete: See 7.2.1.3.,
Column II, Rubble Stone: See 7.2.1.3.;
Chimney Liner (See 7.2.2.3.)
Column III, Type: Fireclay brick,
Column IV, Thickness: 4-1/2 in. (114 mm),
Column V, Cement: High duty;
Termination
Column VI, Highest Point: 20 ft (6.1 m),
Column VII Nearby Structures: 20 ft (6.1 m) within 50 ft. (15.2 m);
Minimum Air Space Clearances (See 7.2.2.3.)
Column VII, Interior Chimney: See 7.3.1.5.,
Column IX, Exterior Chimney: See 7.3.1.5..

--7.2.2 Chimney Lining.
---7.2.2.1 Masonry chimneys shall be lined.
---7.2.2.2 The selection of the lining material shall be appropriate for the class of chimney service and the type of appliance connected in accordance with the terms of the appliance listing and the manufacturer's instructions.
---7.2.2.3 Listed materials used as chimney linings shall be installed in accordance with the terms of their listings and the manufacturer's instructions.

-7.3 Clearance from Combustible Material
--7.3.1 Minimum Air Space.
---7.3.1.1 The minimum air space clearance between interior masonry chimneys (where any portion of the chimney is located within the exterior wall of the building) and combustible materials shall be at least the distance specified in Table 7.2, Column VIII.
---7.3.1.2 The minimum air space clearance between exterior masonry chimneys (where the chimney is located completely outside the exterior wall of the building, excluding the soffit or cornice area) and combustible material shall be at least the distance specified in Table 7.2, Column IX.
---7.3.1.3* The air space shall not be filled.
---7.3.1.4 For residential and low-heat chimneys, noncombustible trim shall be permitted to be used to prevent the entry of debris into the air space.
---7.3.1.5 Masonry chimneys for high-heat appliances shall have clearance from buildings and structures based on good engineering practice and acceptable to the AHJ to avoid overheating combustible material, to allow inspection and maintenance operations on the chimney, and to avoid the danger of burns to persons.

See you've subsequently addressed missing location information in your profile, as it now displays "Southern California".

Will leave it to you to consult the status of the present listing/ammendments to California Codes. You still have deficiencies regarding termination height (20"), and others. You might start as below:

See especially Chapters 21-Masonry and Chapter 21A Masonry of 2007 California Building Code, Title 24, Part 2, including supplements through January 2009 here is a link to Part 2 of Title 24: CALIFORNIA


- Chapter 21 - Masonry
-- Section 2113 Masonry Chimneys
-- 2113.9 Termination.
Chimneys shall extend at least 2 feet (610 mm) higher than any portion of the building within 10 feet (3048 mm), but shall not be less than 3 feet (914 mm) above the highest point where the chimney passes through the roof.
-- 2113.19 Chimney Clearances.
Any portion of a masonry chimney located in the interior of the building or within the exterior wall of the building shall have a minimum airspace clearance to combustibles of 2 inches (51 mm). Chimneys located entirely outside the exterior walls of the building, including chimneys that pass through the soffit or cornice, shall have a minimum airspace clearance of 1 inch (25 mm). The airspace shall not be filled, except to provide fireblocking in accordance with Section 2113.20.
--- Exceptions:
---- 1. Masonry chimneys equipped with a chimney lining system listed and labeled for use in chimneys in contact with combustibles in accordance with UL 1777, and installed in accordance with the manufacturer's instructions, are permitted to have combustible material in contact with their exterior surfaces.
---- 2. Where masonry chimneys are constructed as part of masonry or concrete walls, combustible materials shall not be in contact with the masonry or concrete wall less than 12 inches (305 mm) from the inside surface of the nearest flue lining.
---- 3. Exposed combustible trim and the edges of sheathing materials, such as wood siding, are permitted to abut the masonry chimney sidewalls, in accordance with Figure 2113.19, provided such combustible trim or sheathing is a minimum of 12 inches (305 mm) from the inside surface of the nearest flue lining. Combustible material and trim shall not overlap the corners of the chimney by more than 1 inch (25 mm).

See Figure 2113.19 here (scroll to bottom of page):
Chapter 21 - Masonry

-- 2113.20 Chimney fireblocking.
All spaces between chimneys and floors and ceilings through which chimneys pass shall be fireblocked with noncombustible material securely fastened in place. The fireblocking of spaces between wood joists, beams or headers shall be to a depth of 1 inch (25 mm) and shall only be placed on strips of metal or metal lath laid across the spaces between combustible material and the chimney.

Originally Posted by Chuck Lambert

Just curious to see what the consensus was out there about the chimney being too close to the combustible framing.

Originally Posted by A.D. Miller

CL: It is a clear violation of:


R1001.11 Fireplace clearance.

All wood beams, joists, studs

and other combustible material shall have a clearance of not
less than 2 inches (51 mm) from the front faces and sides of
masonry fireplaces and not less than 4 inches (102 mm) from
the back faces of masonry fireplaces. The air space shall not be
filled, except to provide fire blocking in accordance with Section
R1001.12.

And from the California Building Code courtesy of H.G.:

-- 2113.19 Chimney Clearances.
Any portion of a masonry chimney located in the interior of the building or within the exterior wall of the building shall have a minimum airspace clearance to combustibles of 2 inches (51 mm). Chimneys located entirely outside the exterior walls of the building, including chimneys that pass through the soffit or cornice, shall have a minimum airspace clearance of 1 inch (25 mm).

Except if exception #3 to 2113.19 applies then abuttment is allowed (and 2113.20)

But the termination stated at 20" is still of issue.

H.G. Watson, Sr.,

I have thick skin and I thank you for your time and devotion to your answers. However you have read way too much into my original question and/or maybe I stated the question incorrectly.

I just wanted to know how many out in the Inspection Profession would say anything in their report about the EXTERIOR of the pictured chimney being too close to combustible materials, or if they would not.

As to the termination being what it is that is also a write up

H.G and Jerry,

Thank you both for the code references. Being an inspector in CA I am aware of them. Now that you both have posted them here they are visible for all who read this thread and maybe they will clear up any confusion if anyone had some.

Chuck

That tends to happen with vague OP questions, and incomplete responses to follow-up questions.

Since most of us are bound to produce reports within short time periods; one doesn't wish to assume too much and fail to address the understated or vague issue with a misleading or assumptive conclusion, based upon a vague post which fails to include a clear indication of what is being asked, nor presents sufficient facts to provide a specific and complete response not based upon unsupported assumptions, especially if one does not know if the questioning OP has a report pending, or other circumstance, where time is of the essence.

Originally Posted by Chuck Lambert

H.G. Watson, Sr.,

I have thick skin and I thank you for your time and devotion to your answers. However you have read way too much into my original question and/or maybe I stated the question incorrectly.

I just wanted to know how many out in the Inspection Profession would say anything in their report about the EXTERIOR of the pictured chimney being too close to combustible materials, or if they would not.

As to the termination being what it is that is also a write up

H.G and Jerry,

Thank you both for the code references. Being an inspector in CA I am aware of them. Now that you both have posted them here they are visible for all who read this thread and maybe they will clear up any confusion if anyone had some.

Chuck

Well, that was a fun ride!

Chuck, I would not say anyting about the chimney in the picture you posted. Granted it might not meet the codes to the letter, but at times we do have to toss common sense into the mix. Just looking at the pictures I just do not see any way that the chimney could become hot enough to catch the wood on fire. And if that ever became the case I don't think that the wood would be the largest problem at hand.

As much as I hate to say it, general home inspectors are not code compliance inspectors.

Yes, we can use codes to back up our findings if the inspectors wishes to do so but we have no requirement to do it. In fact some states even say so in their license law.

Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr.

That tends to happen with vague OP questions, and incomplete responses to follow-up questions.

Since most of us are bound to produce reports within short time periods; one doesn't wish to assume too much and fail to address the understated or vague issue with a misleading or assumptive conclusion, based upon a vague post which fails to include a clear indication of what is being asked, nor presents sufficient facts to provide a specific and complete response not based upon unsupported assumptions, especially if one does not know if the questioning OP has a report pending, or other circumstance, where time is of the essence.

That is a rather pompous redirect!

Originally Posted by Scott Patterson

Just looking at the pictures I just do not see any way that the chimney could become hot enough to catch the wood on fire.

Thanks, I was thinking ditto.

The cost of giving that framing a 1" clearance could be prohibative. Installing a natural gas fireplace insert with a metal chimney liner would be worth suggesting as an alternative.

We are getting away from wood-burning in general in my area, as it is hot, dangerous and costly. Also there are air quality issues.

It looks like they secured the cable properly to me. After the next paint job, you'll never know it's there.

Originally Posted by Jim Ellison

It looks like they secured the cable properly to me. After the next paint job, you'll never know it's there.

Location, location, location.

Originally Posted by John Kogel

The cost of giving that framing a 1" clearance could be prohibative.

The cost would have been ZERO had it been constructed properly at the time of construction.

Also ... since when does "cost" affect a defect so that you do, or do not, write it up?

Curious as to how you use "cost" to decide what defects to write up and which defects to not write up.

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

The cost would have been ZERO had it been constructed properly at the time of construction.

But it was not, and now my client wants to buy the place.

Also ... since when does "cost" affect a defect so that you do, or do not, write it up? Curious as to how you use "cost" to decide what defects to write up and which defects to not write up.

Well, I would write it up, "inadequate clearances, fire safety issue, blah, blah".

My comment was in answer to the OP, "what would you say?"
Verbally, I might offer a few alternatives, such as "there are other ways to make that situation safe."

Cost is a big deal when you're buying a home. I like to discuss the different possibilities a bit with them so it's not all doom and gloom.

If the inside wall of the clay liner is 12 inches or more from the outside of the brick chimney chase where the wood is abutting - there is no issue as long as the required metal is between the dissimilar materials (wood & masonry). A peek from above or if necessary a level 1 or 2 could confirm this quick. Since the termination has been stated at 20" there would likely already be some remediation on that issue required/scheduled, hopefully done by a pro. One of the sections is not a joist it is between members tying in the decking above and trimming and likely can be remediated - of the others, one is quite far away, another appears to have spacing at the decking line and cut at a bevel, may be able to be remediated as well, assuming when this was done (extention to porch covering), the code read as it does now (perhaps not).

Now if there is a clearance issue, the "cost" may be diffuculty getting fire/peril coverage, and that's difficult and expensive enough already in So. Calif. these days (new issue policies generally requiring insurance inspections - usually drive bys and walk arounds with a few photos, but this would likely be caught and sent to underwriting) hence a potential rude awakening a few months after closing with a notice from the insurer electing to not issue the policy or cancelling the policy that was previously bound over for closing.

So yes, I'd mention concern about clearance, esp. since termination height is already of issue, and strongly recommend at least a Level II with full documention and report. This way you have precise info on what needs to be done, and potential confirmation of an acceptable clearance between the clay and the outside of the brick & wood abuttment, therefore assuring no issues in that regard, and a ready response should the Home Insurance underwriter question this sometime in the future.

John

I would be inclined to remove any liability that maybe incurred by recommending a WETT inspection prior to close of title.

Since no one seems to have a proper answer having a WETT inspection would be a wise call.

Cheers,

Raymond,
Excuse my ingnorance, but what is WETT an acronym for?

Hi Chris,

WETT - What is WETT?

Home insurance requirements usually call for a WETT Certified inspection as proof that the chimney and fireplace et al are installed to code and manufactures recommendations.

Cheers,

Thanks Raymond

Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr.

If the inside wall of the clay liner is 12 inches or more from the outside of the brick chimney chase where the wood is abutting - there is no issue as long as the required metal is between the dissimilar materials (wood & masonry).

Not quite that clear cut.

From your own post: (bold red text is mine)

Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr.

-- 2113.19 Chimney Clearances.
Any portion of a masonry chimney located in the interior of the building or within the exterior wall of the building shall have a minimum airspace clearance to combustibles of 2 inches (51 mm). Chimneys located entirely outside the exterior walls of the building, including chimneys that pass through the soffit or cornice, shall have a minimum airspace clearance of 1 inch (25 mm). The airspace shall not be filled, except to provide fireblocking in accordance with Section 2113.20.
--- Exceptions:
---- 1. Masonry chimneys equipped with a chimney lining system listed and labeled for use in chimneys in contact with combustibles in accordance with UL 1777, and installed in accordance with the manufacturer's instructions, are permitted to have combustible material in contact with their exterior surfaces.
---- 2. Where masonry chimneys are constructed as part of masonry or concrete walls, combustible materials shall not be in contact with the masonry or concrete wall less than 12 inches (305 mm) from the inside surface of the nearest flue lining.
---- 3. Exposed combustible trim and the edges of sheathing materials, such as wood siding, are permitted to abut the masonry chimney sidewalls, in accordance with Figure 2113.19, provided such combustible trim or sheathing is a minimum of 12 inches (305 mm) from the inside surface of the nearest flue lining. Combustible material and trim shall not overlap the corners of the chimney by more than 1 inch (25 mm).

JP: I'm sorry, but the portion you chose to highlight with red & bold is from exception #2, not to which I was referring (#3 keeping the language of all of 2113.19 in mind) but that exception nonetheless also has the same 12" from the nearest inside flue liner. Try as I might, I do not see your point Please explain, because I'm not getting it.

Was it something about the parging/stucco-ish finish on the exterior wall that brought you to #2? (IME most such finishes in SoCal are upon frame structures and I thought it was made clear - with all caps - that the brick chimney was exterior to the wall.) My point was that if the clearance from the outside edge of the brick of the chimney chase (where the wood is applied) to the nearest inside surface of the flue liner was 12", and the required metal between the dissimilar materials (wood to brick) was pressent it was a non-issue per exception 3.

See the diagram which is a part of 2113.119 I provided direct link to it originally in case I'm not being clear in my wordy word picture.

RW & CM:

RW: Thanks for the link for the WETT program in Canada.

CM (and others) the Level I or Level II inpections I mentioned was referring to Level 1 or Level 2 inspection by an individual certified by the Chimney Safety Institute of America. These are generally performed according to NFPA 211 and incorporating local codes & ordinances. There is a third Level of inspection, the Level 3. The reason I mentioned a Level II or 2 was two fold, one that most of Calf is in seismic area and the mention that this porch covering extension was not original; and for insurance purposes with such a question/possible issue as was raised in the information relayed about the termination height - most likely would be required. Most insurance underwriters accept a report based upon an inspection by a local CSIA certified inspector. In some locales fire authorities have provisions to conduct these inspections as well.

You can view NFPA 211 on line without cost (but you will be required to register) at NFPA . The Chimney Safety Institute of America's site is at http://www.csia.org
Here is direct link describing the basics about the different Levels of inspection: Chimney Inspections Explained

Usually you want the chimney inspected before swept.

Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr.

but that exception nonetheless also has the same 12" from the nearest inside flue liner. Try as I might, I do not see your point Please explain, because I'm not getting it.

H.G.,

"2. Where masonry chimneys are constructed as part of masonry or concrete walls, combustible materials shall not be in contact with the masonry or concrete wall less than 12 inches (305 mm) from the inside surface of the nearest flue lining."

I.e., if you have a chimney in a frame wall, the 12" clearance is not applicable.

Only when the the chimney is "part of masonry or concrete" walls does that then come into play.

This is because, unlike framed walls, the masonry or concrete walls will absorb and dissipate a lot of heat, reducing any overheating risk. It is the sheer mass of the walls which is being relied on to dissipate the heat, something frame walls are simply not capable of.

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

H.G.,

"2. Where masonry chimneys are constructed as part of masonry or concrete walls, combustible materials shall not be in contact with the masonry or concrete wall less than 12 inches (305 mm) from the inside surface of the nearest flue lining."

I.e., if you have a chimney in a frame wall, the 12" clearance is not applicable.

Only when the the chimney is "part of masonry or concrete" walls does that then come into play.

This is because, unlike framed walls, the masonry or concrete walls will absorb and dissipate a lot of heat, reducing any overheating risk. It is the sheer mass of the walls which is being relied on to dissipate the heat, something frame walls are simply not capable of.

No sir. the separation of 12" is required because the walls can retain and prevent dissapation of heat - they hold that heat for a long, long time (like a pizza stone). Without that 12" separation within the chimney you are required to have the 2" separation outside the chimney in your example.

There are three exceptions to the required clearances outlined in 2113.19. They are not cumulative. They are separate and distinct. There is no comma or semicolon between exceptions: each exception stands alone and is completed with a period (.) It is california's building code.

I am referring to exception number three (3).

It pertains to framing, sheathing and trim.

Your theory regards to why exception 2 exists is opposite of the case. Masonry walls hold heat. The exception (2) exists when there is a separation/space between the chimney outside surface and the inside surface wall of the flue liner that is equal to or greater than 12".

The same separation proximity (between outside of chimney and the inside wall of flue liner) exist in exception number 3, thus negating the need for the 2" or 1" separation from combustibles from the outside surface of the chimney wall - as long as the provisions of 2113.20 are maintained.


See especially Chapters 21-Masonry and Chapter 21A Masonry of 2007 California Building Code, Title 24, Part 2, including supplements through January 2009 here is a link to Part 2 of Title 24: CALIFORNIA


- Chapter 21 - Masonry
-- Section 2113 Masonry Chimneys
.
-- 2113.19 Chimney Clearances.
Any portion of a masonry chimney located in the interior of the building or within the exterior wall of the building shall have a minimum airspace clearance to combustibles of 2 inches (51 mm). Chimneys located entirely outside the exterior walls of the building, including chimneys that pass through the soffit or cornice, shall have a minimum airspace clearance of 1 inch (25 mm). The airspace shall not be filled, except to provide fireblocking in accordance with Section 2113.20.
--- Exceptions:
---- 1. Masonry chimneys equipped with a chimney lining system listed and labeled for use in chimneys in contact with combustibles in accordance with UL 1777, and installed in accordance with the manufacturer's instructions, are permitted to have combustible material in contact with their exterior surfaces.
---- 2. Where masonry chimneys are constructed as part of masonry or concrete walls, combustible materials shall not be in contact with the masonry or concrete wall less than 12 inches (305 mm) from the inside surface of the nearest flue lining.
---- 3. Exposed combustible trim and the edges of sheathing materials, such as wood siding, are permitted to abut the masonry chimney sidewalls, in accordance with Figure 2113.19, provided such combustible trim or sheathing is a minimum of 12 inches (305 mm) from the inside surface of the nearest flue lining. Combustible material and trim shall not overlap the corners of the chimney by more than 1 inch (25 mm).

See Figure 2113.19 here (scroll to bottom of page):
Chapter 21 - Masonry This is a direct link to FIGURE 2113.19 and this code section.

-- 2113.20 Chimney fireblocking.
All spaces between chimneys and floors and ceilings through which chimneys pass shall be fireblocked with noncombustible material securely fastened in place. The fireblocking of spaces between wood joists, beams or headers shall be to a depth of 1 inch (25 mm) and shall only be placed on strips of metal or metal lath laid across the spaces between combustible material and the chimney.

Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr.

No sir. the separation of 12" is required because the walls can retain and prevent dissapation of heat - they hold that heat for a long, long time (like a pizza stone).

To the contrary.

They dissipate the heat.

They dissipate the heat out from the source (the flue liner) ... just like your pizza oven ... not because it does not dissipate heat, but precisely because it DOES ... it *more evenly* dissipates the heat throughout the brick pizza oven so there are no hot spots, which are what would cause the problem ... and, just like the pizza oven, the masonry or concrete wall dissipates the heat out from the source to a more even distribution in the masonry.

As I stated:

This is because, unlike framed walls, the masonry or concrete walls will absorb and dissipate a lot of heat, reducing any overheating risk. It is the sheer mass of the walls which is being relied on to dissipate the heat, something frame walls are simply not capable of.

You know ... just like the brick pizza oven you referred to.

No sir. We'll just have to agree to disagree. It is the 12" between the inner wall of the liner and the chimney exterior that allows the exception and without that, the exterior separation spacing is required. 2" in your example.

That space is also a thermal break of sorts allowing proper draft.

Long term heat otherwise might allow carbonization. Carbonized combustibles ignite at lower temperatures.

Without the 12" you still require the 2" or 1" separation, even masonry walls.

Have a good night.

Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr.

No sir. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

Nope.

It is the 12" between the inner wall of the liner and the chimney exterior that allows the exception and without that, the exterior separation spacing is required. 2" in your example.

You are almost there, but you need to go back and re-read what I have been posting. You keep trying to sidetrack it off in the direction you desire, but I am here to keep it on track until you understand it ...

THAT 12" EXCEPTION ... yes, it is an exception ... ONLY APPLIES ... and this is the part I keep pointing out to you, even in the quotes you post ... ONLY APPLIES TO ... (drum roll) ... to "2. Where masonry chimneys are constructed as part of masonry or concrete walls, combustible materials shall not be in contact with the masonry or concrete wall less than 12 inches (305 mm) from the inside surface of the nearest flue lining."

This is because the wide spread knowledge that, like your brick pizza oven, the flue itself is not going to heat up the mass of the masonry or concrete as much, because there is more mass to dissipate and spread the heat out into the greater mass, whereas with a frame wall the heat around the flue will be quite intense, and localized, and hot spots.

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

Nope.



You are almost there, but you need to go back and re-read what I have been posting. You keep trying to sidetrack it off in the direction you desire, but I am here to keep it on track until you understand it ...

THAT 12" EXCEPTION ... yes, it is an exception ... ONLY APPLIES ... and this is the part I keep pointing out to you, even in the quotes you post ... ONLY APPLIES TO ... (drum roll) ... to "2. Where masonry chimneys are constructed as part of masonry or concrete walls, combustible materials shall not be in contact with the masonry or concrete wall less than 12 inches (305 mm) from the inside surface of the nearest flue lining."

This is because the wide spread knowledge that, like your brick pizza oven, the flue itself is not going to heat up the mass of the masonry or concrete as much, because there is more mass to dissipate and spread the heat out into the greater mass, whereas with a frame wall the heat around the flue will be quite intense, and localized, and hot spots.

No sir. My example was of a pizza STONE not a pizza oven.

There are three exceptions to the required clearances outlined in 2113.19. They are not cumulative. They are separate and distinct. There is no comma or semicolon between exceptions: each exception stands alone and is completed with a period (.) It is california's building code.

I am referring to exception number three (3).

It pertains to framing, sheathing and trim for a masonry chimney which is exterior to the wall and that exterior wall MAY BE FRAMED, sheathed, and finished however, including stucco as CL's photos display.

Exception 3 has its own diagram which I have referred and linked to repeatedly. It's now attached for your convenience.

Take a look at it (figure 2113.19: ILLUSTRATION OF EXCEPTION THREE CHIMNEY CLEARANCE PROVISION) notice the bottom side being the exterior wall of the structure, and .....drum roll...... it is diagramed as a FRAMED WALL. Exception 3 (not 2) is what I have referred to over and over again.

masonry chimney sidewalls are not the same thing as masonry exterior walls of the home.

The same separation proximity (between outside of chimney and the inside wall of flue liner) exist in exception number 3, thus negating the need for the 2" or 1" separation from combustibles from the outside surface of the chimney wall - as long as the provisions of 2113.20 are maintained.


See especially Chapters 21-Masonry and Chapter 21A Masonry of 2007 California Building Code, Title 24, Part 2, including supplements through January 2009 here is a link to Part 2 of Title 24: CALIFORNIA


- Chapter 21 - Masonry
-- Section 2113 Masonry Chimneys
.
-- 2113.19 Chimney Clearances.
Any portion of a masonry chimney located in the interior of the building or within the exterior wall of the building shall have a minimum airspace clearance to combustibles of 2 inches (51 mm). Chimneys located entirely outside the exterior walls of the building, including chimneys that pass through the soffit or cornice, shall have a minimum airspace clearance of 1 inch (25 mm). The airspace shall not be filled, except to provide fireblocking in accordance with Section 2113.20.


--- Exceptions:
---- 3. Exposed combustible trim and the edges of sheathing materials, such as wood siding, are permitted to abut the masonry chimney sidewalls, in accordance with Figure 2113.19, provided such combustible trim or sheathing is a minimum of 12 inches (305 mm) from the inside surface of the nearest flue lining. Combustible material and trim shall not overlap the corners of the chimney by more than 1 inch (25 mm).

See Figure 2113.19 here (scroll to bottom of page):
Chapter 21 - Masonry This is a direct link to FIGURE 2113.19 and this code section.

You all seem to miss the fact that if the chimney is lined properly a zero clearance is acceptable.

Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr.

See Figure 2113.19 here (scroll to bottom of page):
Chapter 21 - Masonry This is a direct link to FIGURE 2113.19 and this code section.

And you DID see the 1 inch clearance to the COMBUSTIBLE sheathing, did you not?

That is not showing what is being discussed with the 12 inch exemption for masonry and concrete walls.

oh dear God!

No of course not it is a 12" exemption for FRAMED walls, which is of course what is pictured. Stucco on framed walls.

You are the only one fixated on expemption 2, and it does not apply.

No, I didn't miss that, the flue is tile lined. I said it has an exemption if there is a 12 inch clearance.

That's it, I'm done. Jerry Peck you are focusing on a non applicable expemption (2), #3 applies. The wall is a framed wall. The chimney is masonry. The chimney is completely exterior to the framed wall. The issue had to do with the combustibles abutting the exterior chimney due to the overhang extension over the porch. There is no clearance issue to the primary exterior wall there is sufficient gap, it is the L wall to which there is a potential issue. The "joists" as you declared them are not joists or rafters they are trimmer and trim members. They can easily be remediated. They may not need to be remediated should the inner wall of the clay liner be 12" away from the abuttment. This of course presumes the code at the time the addition/extension read the same as it does now (and as long as metal is between the wood & brick).

No matter what, the 20 inch termination above the surface of the roofing materials IS of issue. This must be remediated. A certified (csia or nsf) inspector can proceed with a Level 2 report. This would be advised at a minimum to assure insurability in So. Calif. market. It would also be advised since same is a seismic region and the purchaser would be best advised to have a complete Level 2 with camera inspection & report.

Enough said. You are beyond redemption. Tantrum away you just wrote your death knell for any Fry or Daubert Challenge, you can forget about your aspirations of doing litigation work in a real trial.

Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr.

oh dear God!

No of course not it is a 12" exemption for FRAMED walls, which is of course what is pictured. Stucco on framed walls.

You are the only one fixated on expemption 2, and it does not apply.

H.G.,

Because that is what I keep talking about - masonry walls and concrete walls, go back and READ my posts.

And you kept saying no.

You need to keep on track about what is being SPECIFICALLY referred to.

A masonry or concrete wall doesn't apply to the CLs photos. They are framed walls finished in stucco or similar finish. The chimney is completely exterior and has more than 2" clearance from primary wall. The L wall is stucco finish on framed wall and chimney is exterior to wall (per CLs post "EXTERIOR"). Your insistance on referring to exception #2 is irrelevant, non-applicable to the instant topic or CL's pictured condition.

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

And you DID see the 1 inch clearance to the COMBUSTIBLE sheathing, did you not?

That is not showing what is being discussed with the 12 inch exemption for masonry and concrete walls.

Yes where the 12" clearance is NOT maintained by the position of the tile flue liner, where it IS maintained it is not required. Read the exception, the figure goes with it.

No it doesn't you are the only one discussing masonry and concrete walls or assert they have anything to do with what CL posted.

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

H.G.,

Because that is what I keep talking about - masonry walls and concrete walls, go back and READ my posts.

And you kept saying no.

You need to keep on track about what is being SPECIFICALLY referred to.

Masonry and concrete walls (or a chimney incorporated therein) have nothing to do with what is pictured or discussed by or in CL's posts.

Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr.

you are the only one discussing masonry and concrete walls

Wrong again.

*I* pointed out that the exception for the 12" is LIMITED TO masonry walls and is not applicable to frame walls.

Go back and read post #25 in this thread.

You will see where I quoted YOU making a direct and specific statement which I pointed out as being "Not quite that clear cut.", and then quoted YOU posting the code section and *I* highlighted the applicable "as part of masonry or concrete walls" wording.

Since then, you have been arguing that I was wrong and not paying attention to what was said.

Like I said, go back and read post #25.

There is no presumed issue with the walls, if there is a question if clearance within exception 3 the boards on the walls are okay as illustrated on the pics attached (CLs pics with notations). The chimney is exterior to the walls not incorporated therein (seismic tie-ins excepted). CL made a point of that and the brick pattern backs that up.

The only presumed clearance issue was the abuttment of the roof deck extention trimmer and trim (not rafters not joists as was opined by others) to the chimney and the termination height.

CL never indicated (even after being asked) what the chimney was serving.

Others have presumed 1) fireplace chimney and 2) chimney incorporated in wall: Fact not asserted by CL and fact not evidenced by photos.

There is no wall issue evidenced by the photos or CLs description. We are not in a position to remove the material between L stucco and the chimney and explore - the brick pattern does not indicate such an issue. You are the only one focusing on the idea that the chimney is incorporated into wall or that the wall it is incorporated into is masonry - it is not. Wall clearance is not of visable issue or a questioned issue by anyone other than yourself.

Exterior brick and masonry chimney with a tile flue with the interior fireplace serving the living room. Wood structure is the original roofing eaves/fascia with an additional extension that is an added on patio cover.

Chuck

Thanks for clearing that up Chuck.

H.G.

Chuck's question is a question that occasionally sticks its ugly head up and of course it a non-code complying condition and I recall calling it out time after time the years I spent in the trenches. However, 1: I'm not aware of any fires resulting from this condition, and 2: I'm also not aware of a single client having it corrected. It’s just one of those things that has been going on longer than I've been alive and will certainly continue long after I'm dust. So me thinks and advise I would just ignore it and move on to something a bit more meaty.
Talk about much-do-about-nothing,,,,, Jeeeze. Hang in there Chuck; some folks just like to preach.

Remediating the trimmer and trim on the roof extension over the porch is an easy thing to accomplish, especially for the chimney specialist - as they will need to extend that chimney to 36" termination and within 24" above for the 10- radius (presently 20" above extended roof), especially since the tile has to be done ahead of the masonry and there would be tear down of that 20" already.

Insurers are dropping for short terminations and clearance to roofing members and lack of firestopping all the time of the last several years in So. California. The opportunity presents itself when properties change hands, or change status (non-owner occupied property status, i.e. rentals/vacant/etc.). It has been a means to decrease exposure for many national insurers for certain fire prone areas within the law (without redlining), some underwriters have and are in the process of pulling out of California all together. Its a rude awakening for a new homeowner with a mortgage to not only get the refusal to renew, or cancellation notice, or refusal to issue policy on binder notice following a drive by or walk by inspection, not be able to secure a fully underwritten policy in the time frame and either have less than adequate coverage or no coverage and get socked by the Mortgage company's policy surcharges for peril and casualty alone, which are extreme (and do not cover the interests or property of the homeowner).

Irrespective, with a clay lined masonry chimney which is 16" short on termination above the roof and 4" short on termination height for 10' radius in So. Calif I would highly recommend a Level 2 and CYA for both the HI and the Home owner for insurability and at a minimum assuring the liner is intact and no other issues for the fireplace (as we now know it is serving in the living room), i.e. proper draft and functioning don't want a fire in the house or products of combustion there either.

Have a great week.

(bold red text is mine)

Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr.

JP: Which is wrong of course it is not the only exception(2) for the 12" rule, as there is excpetion #3 which does incorporate the 12" rule but under circumnstances which differ completely than those of exception @2; and your even considering exception #2 is inapplicable to this installation. Exception #3 has nothing to do with masonry walls, nor chimneys contained therein. Exception #3 It is on point regarding framed walls which in this case are finished with stucco, and permits the TRIM ON THE STUCCO WALL (L WALL) to ABUT the chimney below the porch cover/roof extension as long as the 12" clearance is met from within the inner wall of the chimney liner, AND the combustible trim (or sheathing) does not lap beyond 1" of the corner (as in the case here and illustrated on two of the three photos I attached earlier).

H.G.,

Finally ... finally you may be getting to what exception #3 is about, and why it IS NOT APPLICABLE to the photo you are trying to apply it too.

I was pointing out that exception #2 would be applicable to the wood in that photo if ... IF ... ONLY IF ... that wall was masonry or concrete.

Exception #3 only permits:
- 3. Exposed combustible trim and the edges of sheathing materials, such as wood siding, are permitted to abut the masonry chimney sidewalls, in accordance with Figure 2113.19, provided such combustible trim or sheathing is a minimum of 12 inches (305 mm) from the inside surface of the nearest flue lining. Combustible material and trim shall not overlap the corners of the chimney by more than 1 inch (25 mm).

That wood in the photo is neither trim nor sheathing, thus exception #3 does not apply. Only exception #2 applies to the wood shown in the photo ... but only on masonry or concrete walls.

Do you get it yet?

Or do I have to try to stick my head up my butt as far as your head is to try to get your perspective?

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

(bold red text is mine)



H.G.,

Finally ... finally you may be getting to what exception #3 is about, and why it IS NOT APPLICABLE to the photo you are trying to apply it too.

I was pointing out that exception #2 would be applicable to the wood in that photo if ... IF ... ONLY IF ... that wall was masonry or concrete.

Exception #3 only permits:
- 3. Exposed combustible trim and the edges of sheathing materials, such as wood siding, are permitted to abut the masonry chimney sidewalls, in accordance with Figure 2113.19, provided such combustible trim or sheathing is a minimum of 12 inches (305 mm) from the inside surface of the nearest flue lining. Combustible material and trim shall not overlap the corners of the chimney by more than 1 inch (25 mm).

That wood in the photo is neither trim nor sheathing, thus exception #3 does not apply. Only exception #2 applies to the wood shown in the photo ... but only on masonry or concrete walls.

Do you get it yet?

Or do I have to try to stick my head up my butt as far as your head is to try to get your perspective?

Look at the notated photos I posted earler. Be sure to look at it in full view so you don't miss the two areas where the TRIM on the wall is POINTED OUT TO YOU. Both sides of the chimney, both on the L wall one in plain view on the L, the other noted on the right side of the chimney in the gap between the main wall and the Living Room wall on the Left at the "ell" of the porch extension. Maybe THEN YOU WILL GET IT. I said EARLY on the exception did NOT apply to the TRIMMER and TRIM/LEDGE of the porch ROOF extension, but that they were NOT joists or Rafters and would NOT be EXPENSIVE to MOVE THEM 1" and install metal required for 1" FIREBLOCKING i.e. 2113.120. What I said is it may not be REQUIRED to remediate it, esp. if the liner is 12" away - that's how the code has been applied in So. Calif. for years. Left Coast Jerry confirmed that was his experience and regarding that question - the locally acquired Level 2 would confirm that if were the case. No exposed (visable) open-to-air space is required on the outside (not wall sides) of the chimney walls where it is passing through the porch roof/overhang on the non-house sides of the chimney it can be blocked with metal top to bottom & filled with non-combustible trim over the metal on the bottom side, to prevent accumulations of insects, debris, etc but never said the separation on the outside chimney walls to the roof overhang required open air space. 2113.119 last part, exc. 3 plus 2113.120 after I identified 2113.19 on termination height was what I was referring to. A failure to communicate.

I asked why you were carrying on so about exception 2, there is wood trim on the walls (really one wall, both sides of the chimney) abutting the chimney at the corners, it IS allowed, per exception 3 of 2113.119 assuming the 12" clearance has been met, and no reason to think it has not been.

Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr.

Look at the notated photos I posted earler. Be sure to look at it in full view so you don't miss the two areas where the TRIM on the wall is POINTED OUT TO YOU.

Apparently you are not aware of what TRIM is.

TRIM. Picture molds, chair rails, baseboards, handrails, door and window frames, and similar decorative or protective materials used in fixed applications.

Are you actually under some sort of dellusion that the horizontal trim on the L wall (both sides of the chimney) @ 1"x 6", 8" or whatever, is serving some sort of structural purpose? It is TRIM, decorative in nature, applied to the structure not unlike sheathing, window or door trim, frisee, etc. and separates the visual fields of stucco. It is a common decorative element in the SW. It is no different in its functionality then a faux tudor finish trim piece or any other applied trim. It obviously does not lap a corner beyond the exception, nor is it exagerated in its depth. Or could it be that you confuse a Trimmer with Trim? Not unlike your confusion of a framed wall with stucco finish not being a mansonry or concrete wall, or confusing a chimney which is exterior to a wall (and stated as such) with one that is incorporated therein? Hmmmm, indeed.

Is this latest eruption just another tact to attempt to cover your own ? Or do you seriously, fail to grasp just how off the mark you have been? Your attempts to warp, twist, distort to justify and hide your distortions and this latest attempt trying to drown your prior posts with a continued lenghty series of manure and ad hominem are uncalled for. It seems you have recovered from your vacation and are back to your old ways, yet again. No need to open mouth to insert foot JP, you've managed to stick both of them in a presumably smaller orifice, where your thumb(s) apparently already resided. Perhaps needed ventillation with all that thinking going on there.

H.G. ... (sigh)


(you can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make it drink)

(I think I may have drowned you in an attempt to get you to drink from the pool of knowledge and its fresh, crisp, cool water)

(sigh)

(oh, well)