Thread: Rule on return vents-fireplaces

What is that rule again about the return vent distance from the fireplace

As you can see it is a gas log. No info near me and am doing the report

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Hope this helps

SECTION M1602
RETURN AIR

M1602.1 Return air.

Return air shall be taken from inside the
dwelling. Dilution of return air with outdoor air shall be
permitted.

M1602.2 Prohibited sources.

Outdoor and return air for a
forced-air heating or cooling system shall not be taken from the
following locations:
1. Closer than 10 feet (3048 mm) to an appliance vent outlet,
a vent opening from a plumbing drainage system or
the discharge outlet of an exhaust fan, unless the outlet is
3 feet (914 mm) above the outside air inlet.
2. Where flammable vapors are present; or where located
less than 10 feet (3048 mm) above the surface of any
abutting public way or driveway; or where located at
grade level by a sidewalk, street, alley or driveway.
3. Aroom or space, the volume of which is less than 25 percent
of the entire volume served by such system. Where
connected by a permanent opening having an area sized
in accordance with ACCA Manual D, adjoining rooms
or spaces shall be considered as a single room or space
for the purpose of determining the volume of such rooms
or spaces.

Exception:

The minimum volume requirement shall
not apply where the amount of return air taken from a
room or space is less than or equal to the amount of
supply air delivered to such room or space.
4. A closet, bathroom, toilet room, kitchen, garage,
mechanical room, furnace room or other dwelling unit.
5. A room or space containing a fuel-burning appliance
where such room or space serves as the sole source of
return air.

Exceptions:

1. The fuel-burning appliance is a direct-vent
appliance or an appliance not requiring a vent in
accordance with Section M1801.1 or Chapter
24.
2. The room or space complies with the following
requirements:
2.1. The return air shall be taken from a

room or space having a volume exceeding

exceeding
1 cubic foot for each 10 Btu/h (9.6
L/W) of combined input rating of all
fuel-burning appliances therein.
2.2. The volume of supply air discharged
back into the same space shall be
approximately equal to the volume of
return air taken from the space.
2.3. Return-air inlets shall not be located
within 10 feet (3048 mm) of any appliance
firebox or draft hood in the same
room or space.
3. Rooms or spaces containing solid-fuel burning
appliances, provided that return-air inlets are
located not less than 10 feet (3048 mm) from

the firebox of such appliances.

Originally Posted by Ted Menelly

What is that rule again about the return vent distance from the fireplace

As you can see it is a gas log. No info near me and am doing the report

Is that a supply vent to the right of it on the ceiling?

What Rick posted only with different highlighting.
- M1602.2 Prohibited sources. Outdoor and return air for a forced-air heating or cooling system shall not be taken from the following locations:
- - 1. Closer than 10 feet (3048 mm) to an appliance vent outlet, a vent opening from a plumbing drainage system or the discharge outlet of an exhaust fan, unless the outlet is 3 feet (914 mm) above the outside air inlet.
- - 2. Where flammable vapors are present; or where located less than 10 feet (3048 mm) above the surface of any abutting public way or driveway; or where located at grade level by a sidewalk, street, alley or driveway.
- - 3. A room or space, the volume of which is less than 25 percent of the entire volume served by such system. Where connected by a permanent opening having an area sized in accordance with ACCA Manual D, adjoining rooms or spaces shall be considered as a single room or space for the purpose of determining the volume of such rooms or spaces.
- - - Exception: The minimum volume requirement shall not apply where the amount of return air taken from a room or space is less than or equal to the amount of supply air delivered to such room or space.
- - 4. A closet, bathroom, toilet room, kitchen, garage, mechanical room, furnace room or other dwelling unit.
- - 5. A room or space containing a fuel-burning appliance where such room or space serves as the sole source of return air.
- - - Exceptions: (Jerry's note: An "exception" from a "prohibited" source is an "allowed" source.)
- - - - 1. The fuel-burning appliance is a direct-vent appliance or an appliance not requiring a vent in accordance with Section M1801.1 or Chapter 24.
- - - - 2. The room or space complies with the following requirements:
- - - - - 2.1. The return air shall be taken from a room or space having a volume exceeding 1 cubic foot for each 10 Btu/h (9.6 L/W) of combined input rating of all fuel-burning appliances therein.
- - - - - 2.2. The volume of supply air discharged back into the same space shall be approximately equal to the volume of return air taken from the space.
- - - - - 2.3. Return-air inlets shall not be located within 10 feet (3048 mm) of any appliance firebox or draft hood in the same room or space. (Jerry's note: If the room or space meets 2, 2.1. 2.2, and 2.3, the return air is allowed to be taken from that room or space. Also note that 2.3 is not met.)
- - - - 3. Rooms or spaces containing solid-fuel burning appliances, provided that return-air inlets are located not less than 10 feet (3048 mm) from the firebox of such appliances.

Simplified answer:

It's wrong no matter what when within 10' of the combustion source, and can't be in the same room as the combustion source if it's the sole return.

Thanks folks. I new all that but did not have a source to quote. Maybe when I grow up I will have it all on my laptop.


Someone asked about if there was a supply vent right next to it all...yes.

Thanks again

"What Rick posted only with different highlighting."

I did highlight the wrong part .

Originally Posted by Ted Menelly

What is that rule again about the return vent distance from the fireplace

As you can see it is a gas log. No info near me and am doing the report

That does not appear to be a gas log, it appears to be a factory-built wood burning fireplace.

Bart

Originally Posted by Bart Ogden

That does not appear to be a gas log, it appears to be a factory-built wood burning fireplace.

Bart

???

Every single prefab fireplace I have seen has also be designed to operate with gas logs, if gas was present at the home. You just need to add the proper burner and log set to them.

The one in the picture is missing the gas logs, but it looks like it has a burner in place.

Originally Posted by Scott Patterson

???

Every single prefab fireplace I have seen has also be designed to operate with gas logs, if gas was present at the home. You just need to add the proper burner and log set to them.

The one in the picture is missing the gas logs, but it looks like it has a burner in place.

I don't disagree with you, Scott.

Specifically, that looks like a gas starter, not a gas log. I agree that they are capable of having a gas log set installed, but that's not what this photo shows and it shouldn't be labeled as such.

A closer look at the fireplace would be a help, but it still looks like a gas starter, not a listed gas burner pan assembly.

Bart

Originally Posted by Bart Ogden

I don't disagree with you, Scott.

Specifically, that looks like a gas starter, not a gas log. I agree that they are capable of having a gas log set installed, but that's not what this photo shows and it shouldn't be labeled as such.

A closer look at the fireplace would be a help, but it still looks like a gas starter, not a listed gas burner pan assembly.

Bart

Does all that really matter. Label it anyway you wish. It has gas, you can burn wood if you wish but why I do not know. The whole point was that it burns fuel whether it be gas, wood or what ever. It is set up for the fake logs.

I was not interested in labeling it to you folks. Gas log...it has a pipe with slots in it and the cute little logs were in the garage. As I said, call it what you wish. I was interested in the wording as far as to write it up with the return vent directly over head.

I did forget to thank the folks that did paste the wording I needed. I greatly appreciate it.

Originally Posted by Ted Menelly

Does all that really matter. Label it anyway you wish. It has gas, you can burn wood if you wish but why I do not know. The whole point was that it burns fuel whether it be gas, wood or what ever. It is set up for the fake logs.

I was not interested in labeling it to you folks. Gas log...it has a pipe with slots in it and the cute little logs were in the garage. As I said, call it what you wish. I was interested in the wording as far as to write it up with the return vent directly over head.

I did forget to thank the folks that did paste the wording I needed. I greatly appreciate it.

That is my entire point. It is NOT set up for the fake logs.

The pipe with slots in it is NOT a listed burner for a set of gas logs. A set of gas logs should have a listed burner pan installed with the correct media for the application (NG or LP).

If anyone is not noting this in their inspection reports when they find a situation such as this, they should be.

We find this quite often during our inspections and we always call it out. The proper listed burner and media will make a tremendous difference in performance, reduced soot accumulation and safety of operation for the homeowner.

Bart

Originally Posted by Bart Ogden

That is my entire point. It is NOT set up for the fake logs.

The pipe with slots in it is NOT a listed burner for a set of gas logs. A set of gas logs should have a listed burner pan installed with the correct media for the application (NG or LP).

If anyone is not noting this in their inspection reports when they find a situation such as this, they should be.

We find this quite often during our inspections and we always call it out. The proper listed burner and media will make a tremendous difference in performance, reduced soot accumulation and safety of operation for the homeowner.

Bart

Now see. You did not even ask what I called it in the report to the client. I was somewhere, coffee shop, where I had no documentation with me. I called it a gas log to you....so what. It was the point of a fireplace with the return vent directly over head.. And you can put fake logs on them and there is no problem with it in doing so. Efficient? Lets see. Turn gas on, no matter what you call the appliance. Light it electronically or with a long match or lighter. Gas burns off and goes up the chimney.

Whats the problem. It does not burn as clean? Certainly a lot cleaner than wood or news paper. You are still just opening a gas valve and lighting it and creating about zero heat for the home when it all goes out the flue. Cannot get any less or for that matter more efficient no matter what type of burner you install and no matter what it is listed for.

This is one of those cases of "it must be" or else that there is no need for "must be" or else. There are particular systems that are made specifically for such but not the only way to do it and safe at that. So as far as you are saying they are all going to die or burn the house down or blow the house up. Gas pipe with slots. Fake logs on top. Pretty, sexy, clean and no danger at all, even a little heat. Unless of course the village idiot is operating your system or a set up like this.

Originally Posted by Ted Menelly

Now see. You did not even ask what I called it in the report to the client. I was somewhere, coffee shop, where I had no documentation with me. I called it a gas log to you....so what. It was the point of a fireplace with the return vent directly over head.. And you can put fake logs on them and there is no problem with it in doing so. Efficient? Lets see. Turn gas on, no matter what you call the appliance. Light it electronically or with a long match or lighter. Gas burns off and goes up the chimney.

Whats the problem. It does not burn as clean? Certainly a lot cleaner than wood or news paper. You are still just opening a gas valve and lighting it and creating about zero heat for the home when it all goes out the flue. Cannot get any less or for that matter more efficient no matter what type of burner you install and no matter what it is listed for.

This is one of those cases of "it must be" or else that there is no need for "must be" or else. There are particular systems that are made specifically for such but not the only way to do it and safe at that. So as far as you are saying they are all going to die or burn the house down or blow the house up. Gas pipe with slots. Fake logs on top. Pretty, sexy, clean and no danger at all, even a little heat. Unless of course the village idiot is operating your system or a set up like this.

Ted,

I was only trying to help. I'm sorry if a poor dumb chimney person such as myself who only has 30 yrs experience in the industry, sits on the NCSG Technical Advisory Council, and is a NFI Master Hearth Professional couldn't try to point a couple of things out to you that might assist you, as well as others with your reports. It's obvious that YOU don't need any help whatsoever from me and your mind is made up on what is and what is not regarding fireplaces, but others might have found this distinction helpful and informative.

You will never have to worry about dealing with a post from an uneducated person such as myself to any further posts you might create in this forum as you have soured me on contributing to YOUR threads.

Have a great day inspecting,
Bart

Originally Posted by Bart Ogden

Ted,

I was only trying to help. I'm sorry if a poor dumb chimney person such as myself who only has 30 yrs experience in the industry, sits on the NCSG Technical Advisory Council, and is a NFI Master Hearth Professional couldn't try to point a couple of things out to you that might assist you, as well as others with your reports. It's obvious that YOU don't need any help whatsoever from me and your mind is made up on what is and what is not regarding fireplaces, but others might have found this distinction helpful and informative.

You will never have to worry about dealing with a post from an uneducated person such as myself to any further posts you might create in this forum as you have soured me on contributing to YOUR threads.

Have a great day inspecting,
Bart

Huh

Uh oh. I did it again. Sorry about the few decades in construction and growing up in the north east and sounding, even when typing, that I have an attitude with my blunt and direct talk.

Nothing intended at you and I appreciate the info as I appreciate all info from all sources. Don't take it personally.

Maybe being Italian, Cherokee Indian and Irish with the strongest part be Italian has something to do with it. Where I came from we could speak our minds with out the other person taking things so personally or taking it as a direct slap. One would just come back with their opinion and we may just agree to disagree or change our minds and sgree with the other person.

I have noticed on here that folks do not like a good debate and do take things very personally. I guess I will, after being on here a few years, be a little more forgiving and less blunt.